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Samuel Berger

Super-8 total costs in 2018

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I have a closet full of 8mm, Super 8 and 16mm (and a little 35mm). I'm so glad I shot 16mm of the kids when they were little...huge difference from the Super 8...which I still love...but that 16mm just looks amazing 15 years later scanned in 4k.

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Ektachrome is going to make a huge difference for me personally for two reasons: I'm one of those who prefer to project, and also I can edit on a Goko editor and then choose what I really want scanned, thereby decreasing the overall cost as I don't have to scan everything.

 

I don't even know if I'm going to shoot all that negative Super 8 in my freezer. I'm thinking probably not unless it's for sporting events that the upcoming 100D can't handle.

 

On the other hand I have enough Tri-X Super 8 and 16mm to last me the rest of the year, as well as some Orwo and Fomapan I keep meaning to test. So there's lots of choices.

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Cinelab have just improved their rates, just a little bit. They do $20 process + $15 1k / $20 1080p / $30 2k.

Well, actually it used to be $18 a cart. but the scan side of things has come down from what I remember - they were wanting like a $150 minimum scan I think.

PS, please tell me where you get cartridges at $25! From ebay I get B&W at $26+p&p, but that's the cheapest I've found. Colour seems to be generally like $5 more...

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Cinelab have just improved their rates, just a little bit. They do $20 process + $15 1k / $20 1080p / $30 2k.

 

Well, actually it used to be $18 a cart. but the scan side of things has come down from what I remember - they were wanting like a $150 minimum scan I think.

 

PS, please tell me where you get cartridges at $25! From ebay I get B&W at $26+p&p, but that's the cheapest I've found. Colour seems to be generally like $5 more...

 

Oh man. My friend! That news is quite the opposite. And a bummer (getting used to the feeling with Super 8 prices). They used to be $15 for processing like a year or so ago... if not $18 per roll just a month ago. I think I just got charged $19/roll for the 3 rolls I sent them last week.

 

And the scanning is actually more expensive. Used to be .30/ft for one light 1080p ($15/cart) and then .34c/ft for best light 1080p ($17.50/cart). Then .50c/ft for 2K scans ($25/cart).

 

Shame. Prices keep creeping up on all fronts (stock, processing, scanning)... Making it more difficult. I just don't know where Super 8 is headed with these prices. Really wish something would actually go DOWN in price (a la Polaroid Originals dropping their price per pack last year) to encourage more shooting.

 

 

BUTTTTTTT I'm just now seeing that CineLab will start processing color reversal!! That's awesome! Amazing! I was having to send my color reversal to Spectra which is pricier or to Dwayne's (which is a mere $12/roll or $14/roll with prep) but the extra cost and hassle of sending it to another lab is eliminated if sending it all to CineLab! Hooray! I'll be sending some Provia 100D and some Ektachrome 64T to them the moment I return from my trip to the west coast!

Edited by Nick Collingwood

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Oh man. My friend! That news is quite the opposite. And a bummer (getting used to the feeling with Super 8 prices). They used to be $15 for processing like a year or so ago... if not $18 per roll just a month ago. I think I just got charged $19/roll for the 3 rolls I sent them last week.

 

Yeah, I kind of realised as I was typing. BUT, the good thing is that they do it per cartridge now, so - although it may cost more overall - you don't need to send in like a minimum amount.

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When I got into super8 I looked into getting more out of film, more resolution, but 16mm cameras back then were still quite expensive, I could shoot quite a few short films to completion for the price of one camera. There were cheaper cameras, but the super8 cameras had comparatively better lenses, and, if super8 is exposed well, shot on a tripod, and transferred well, it is simply stunning on the smaller screen.

And when you think about it, big screen film making is no longer the ultimate goal for film makers, the small screen, ie computer monitor, seems to be the exhibition medium for the future, so 35mm or 16mm resolution is no longer the most sought after originating format for small screen. Modern transfer facilities are finally capturing the magic that a projectionist See's, and modern affordable software is assisting the amateur film maker to do high quality post work.

Super8 enables the film maker huge amounts of freedom, to take a shot, and keep moving, chuck in a cart and keep shooting, no reliance on a big crew with all the inherent delays.

As always, the small formats are showing the way back to where film making started, creativity without being constrained by staffing issues, producers, budgets, lighting, set design, talent releases, focus pullers, boom operators, dolly warmers, wheel greasers, electrical cord straighteners, and catering.

Point, shoot, print, enjoy.

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Kodak killed the hobbyist the moment they killed kodachrome. The whole hobbyist movement revolved around getting a positive image out of the camera roll for projection, so currently there isn't a hobby super 8 format unless you use outdated stocks. When Ektachrome is finally available to the public, we can have this hobby conversation a bit better.

Trouble with Ektacrhome is it will fade. I've got Kodacrhome films from the late 30's and 40's that are fine.

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What I would like to see is a hack and modification for the Wolverine to allow scanning at 4k and 24fps. There is currently a software limitation to it that keeps the generated MP4 at 30fps and the scan is not even true HD that I can tell.

Modifying those $300 machines would ensure that future scans for backup purposes cost nothing.

 

Even as things are, the price of cartridges is too high. I look forward to the day when a hobbyist investor will do what it takes to create a slitter/perforator and start selling carts at $8.99 again. Empty carts from Kodak can be purchased at $3 dollars each, it's in their catalogue.

 

Paul Cotto was working on such a machine, but I think he lost interest.

I had 2 Wolverines. Both died after short use. The IQ is poor with them. Here is a vintage 8mm scanned on a Wolverine.

 

nsfw

 

 

Here is a high-res scan of a 8mm student film I made in the 1970's about a transsexual recreating the act she / he did on the carnival girlie shows. Although this film has noise reduction, big difference in IQ from the Wolverine

 

nsfw

 

https://archive.org/details/GoneUpInSmoke

 

...Epson needs to make decent and affordable 8 and 16mm scanner.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Current pricing:

 

Develop with scan in house $18 for ECN, Tri-X or (soon) E6 this has been about the price for quite a few years from us for processing, I don't remember the last time we charged $15 but it was a while ago. Also we will always build a package price for volume.

 

We charge $22 for process only... because staying in business......

 

For scans we are now doing all S8mm scans on the 4K Xena HDR scanner we just charge differently for resolution.

 

1080P $20

2K $28

3K overscan $35

4K $50 (I may knock this down to $45)

 

I think this is competitive with what scan only houses are doing and in line with what processing is, plus I eliminated minimums on 8mm so one cart costs just the develop and scan cost plus shipping and we are offering Dropbox and Google drive (and sometimes We Transfer but it has problems) for no cost up to about four or five carts.

 

I am looking at getting a 8mm gate for the scan station which will allow the 1K resolution scans at $12 or so.

 

I have been trying to balance the need for staying in business with offering top quality service at a reasonable price. Everyone who works at Cinelab is a film enthusiast except Billco who went to business school... alas none of us are getting rich quick but there is a donut shop a block away from us that sells allot of Lotto tickets so we still have hope of owning that Lambo and a Yacht.

 

I think if you take a look at the scans from the Xena now with the new Sony Pregius sensor they are as sharp as Scan Station but without the hilite noise from the JAI cmos sensor.

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Must admit I've only skimmed this thread but are we seriously discussing scanning Super-8 to 4K DPX?

Do it all them time.

 

You gain some detail especially in resolving the grain, and for shows which are originated in 4K it is a requirement to scan the film in 4K.

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You've been missing out! Granted I don't scan my stuff to 4K but I do get everything scanned at 2K. To be honest, I found the difference between 4k and 2k negligible BUT the difference between 1080p telecine and 2K scans was incredible. So much sharper and better color. Super 8 shot well and scanned to 2K+ can blow older 16mm scans out of the water.

 

Must admit I've only skimmed this thread but are we seriously discussing scanning Super-8 to 4K DPX?

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2000 pixels wide from a mere 5.6mm of film frames.

 

Kodachrome 35mm slides were long imagined as being scannable to max 2000x3000 RGB pixels (not camera pixels)

Now it is supposed to be 8000x12000?

Edited by Andries Molenaar

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Do it all them time.

 

You gain some detail especially in resolving the grain, and for shows which are originated in 4K it is a requirement to scan the film in 4K.

I agree with Robert...even when finishing to HD, a 4k scan of Super 8 makes a subtle but noticeable difference. Of course it helps when it is shot on a decent camera and actually in focus which doesn't happen very much with Super 8.

 

It's nice to have the extra resolution to make pan & scan and zoom decisions. You can reframe in post easily without loss of quality.

 

4k (and 5k) scan rates have come down dramatically recently...I guess because the ScanStation machines have proliferated.

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2000 pixels wide from a mere 5.6mm of film frames.

 

Here's a frame from a wedding I shot last summer that I've shared before. Shot on Canon 814XL-S and scanned at 2K by Gamma Ray Digital on their ScanStation. It has been color corrected but no sharpening or denoise. Click for full res as this forum doesn't seem to auto-resize large images.

 

It's quite sharp if I say so myself and has a lot of detail even for something shot handheld at a long focal length. Technological advancements in imaging sensors have actually had quite the positive benefit for Super 8, showing what the format is truly capable of vs the low quality telecines we've all been used to for decades (let alone the silly framerate issues a la Wonder Years intro).

 

yGX9c5x.jpg

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Is this Vision 3 50D? Looks great and closeups are definitely the way to go with Super 8.

 

 

 

Here's a frame from a wedding I shot last summer that I've shared before. Shot on Canon 814XL-S and scanned at 2K by Gamma Ray Digital on their ScanStation. It has been color corrected but no sharpening or denoise. Click for full res as this forum doesn't seem to auto-resize large images. It's quite sharp if I say so myself and has a lot of detail even for something shot handheld at a long focal length. Technological advancements in imaging sensors have actually had quite the positive benefit for Super 8, showing what the format is truly capable of vs the low quality telecines we've all been used to for decades (let alone the silly framerate issues a la Wonder Years intro).

 

yGX9c5x.jpg

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Is this Vision 3 50D? Looks great and closeups are definitely the way to go with Super 8.

 

Yup! 50D is pretty remarkable in Super 8. It kinda blew me away when I got my first 2K scans of 50D. It's so sharp and grainless for Super 8. This is the full video with most of the outdoor shots being 50D and some 200T.

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Ektachrome 100D Reversal is actually returning now it seems!

Kodak now officially announces it, and several filmmakers are in fact testing out the new emulsion this summer (you can see this if you look at facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/27648968851/ ). Super-8 (7294) will probably (finally!) be available on the market later this year, maybe in late December (in time for Xmas?).
Later still, it will supposedly also be available in 16mm 100 ft daylight and 400 ft core rolls: https://www.kodak.com/SE/sv/motion/Products/Production/ektachrome/default.htm

And, as a 35mm stills film (135 format). I am hoping it could also be cut as a 120 roll film, for medium format cameras (Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Fuji, Rolleiflex, etc), which I use a lot (now with Fuji PROVIA 100F III, 100 ISO).

 

With this reversal film, things look a little bit better for Super-8 (and 16mm) - at least for the hobbyist or DIY/ 'Indie' film maker.

Bengt Fredén, photographer, Stockholm, Sweden

Edited by Bengt Freden

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Ektachrome 100D Reversal is actually returning now it seems!

 

.....And, as a 35mm stills film (135 format). I am hoping it could also be cut as a 120 roll film, for medium format cameras (Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica, Fuji, Rolleiflex, etc), which I use a lot (now with Fuji PROVIA 100F III, 100 ISO).

 

 

 

Kodak have said they're only coating on one base thickness ( for super 8, 16mm and 35mm ) so won't be producing 120 ( thinner ) or 5"x4" ( thicker ) based films.

 

John S :mellow:

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OK, John,

I guess that was pushing my luck! I hope that Fujifilm will continue producing just that, FILM, for some time to come, at least the PROVIA 100F film I am using. I've also heard that they will re-introduce their black & white ACROS film, which they recently discontinued, due to popular demand the world over.

Best, Bengt F, Sweden

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When I got into super8 I looked into getting more out of film, more resolution, but 16mm cameras back then were still quite expensive, I could shoot quite a few short films to completion for the price of one camera. There were cheaper cameras, but the super8 cameras had comparatively better lenses, and, if super8 is exposed well, shot on a tripod, and transferred well, it is simply stunning on the smaller screen.

And when you think about it, big screen film making is no longer the ultimate goal for film makers, the small screen, ie computer monitor, seems to be the exhibition medium for the future, so 35mm or 16mm resolution is no longer the most sought after originating format for small screen. Modern transfer facilities are finally capturing the magic that a projectionist See's, and modern affordable software is assisting the amateur film maker to do high quality post work.

Super8 enables the film maker huge amounts of freedom, to take a shot, and keep moving, chuck in a cart and keep shooting, no reliance on a big crew with all the inherent delays.

As always, the small formats are showing the way back to where film making started, creativity without being constrained by staffing issues, producers, budgets, lighting, set design, talent releases, focus pullers, boom operators, dolly warmers, wheel greasers, electrical cord straighteners, and catering.

Point, shoot, print, enjoy.

 

If you want that, you can also just grab a DSLR and shoot as well in a similar small crew / low impact manner.

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I'm so looking forward to Ektachrome coming back, mainly in my case for 16mm. I shot a wedding last weekend on Super 8, two rolls of 50D, on a Canon 1014 xl-s. First time I'd used this camera since about 1982. It still worked!! (well as far as I know). When I pulled out the second reel there was some lint in the corner of the film gate even though I carefully checked and cleaned gate and compartment before filming started. We will wait and see what the results come out like. There was no opportunity to do a test before the wedding, so results were accepted as being a risk. Word seems to be getting around that I'm back behind a camera, after a few decades away - I have been asked to help film a conference later this year.

Edited by Jon O'Brien

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If you want that, you can also just grab a DSLR and shoot as well in a similar small crew / low impact manner.

 

I mean .... ya but we're all here on a film forum for a reason. We like shooting film.

 

And new ways of optimizing quality and costs for budget filmmakers is always welcome. Plus it gets people used to shooting and handling film so if they decide to upgrade down the line to 16mm or 35mm, they know the basics already. And I'd honestly say Super 8 is way more forgiving of error than DSLR. If you miss focus in a DSLR shot, it's useless, but on Super 8, it doesn't have to be tack sharp to be usable footage.

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If you want that, you can also just grab a DSLR and shoot as well in a similar small crew / low impact manner.

 

Sometimes making an impact with a Super 8 camera gives the bride & groom and extra "cool" factor that people remember. They love sending out Facebook posts showing the strange exotic camera used at their wedding.

 

The other great thing to do with events like that is to handout cheap Super 8 cameras like the Canon AF310xl (that has a crappy lens but it is autofocus) to wedding party members so they can shoot for fun. Just give them one roll loaded and let them go to town and you'll get some great stuff to use that looks like Super 8 should...jerky and out-of-focus but when combined with the well shot stuff you do it is really cool. I have 15 of these camera I've purchased over the years for $5-$40 each so when a beer gets poured over them I really don't care.

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And new ways of optimizing quality and costs for budget filmmakers is always welcome.

 

 

This is an excellent point. In that vein, would anyone care to speculate on what the return of Ektachrome in S8 might mean to overall costs? Meaning, does another available emulsion translate to lower prices?

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