Super-8 total costs in 2018

[Nick Collingwood]

What do you suggest for easy to use grading software for PC?

 

Just Adobe Premiere Pro and the Lumetri Color panel within that program. Or if you're really feeling lazy, Auto Color effect does a pretty decent job. Or you could go at it with curves. Don't forget the Lumetri Scopes. Watch a few tutorials and you'll be halfway decent in no time.

 

Other people recommend Resolve (which is free unlike Premiere) but I just don't have enough experience with it to recommend it. It IS more of the industry standard in color correction. But I couldn't wrap my head around the workflow. Need to give it another try sometime. It handles 18fps footage well.

[Timothy Fransky]

 

Just Adobe Premiere Pro and the Lumetri Color panel within that program. Or if you're really feeling lazy, Auto Color effect does a pretty decent job. Or you could go at it with curves. Don't forget the Lumetri Scopes. Watch a few tutorials and you'll be halfway decent in no time.

 

Other people recommend Resolve (which is free unlike Premiere) but I just don't have enough experience with it to recommend it. It IS more of the industry standard in color correction. But I couldn't wrap my head around the workflow. Need to give it another try sometime. It handles 18fps footage well.

 

Resolve has trouble with Win 10. I don't know why. I've never been able to get it working on my PC.

 

I'm no expert, but I've been using Lightworks v14 free. It's a good option if you can't get Premiere or Resolve.

[Perry Paolantonio]

 

Resolve has trouble with Win 10. I don't know why. I've never been able to get it working on my PC.

 

 

I know plenty of colorists using Resolve on Win10 with no problems (beyond the usual issues with Win10 auto-updating and breaking everything). We're using it on Linux and Windows 7. It's an incredibly stable application, but if you're talking about v15, I'd wait until it's at least at 15.2 or 15.3 before installing. It was just recently officially released, and the first few point releases after the major are usually a bit buggy. Unless you *need* 15, I'd stick with v14.3.x for now.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Perry Paolantonio

[Timothy Fransky]

I believe it was the last v14 freeware I couldn't install. It would install about 90% then freeze up.

[Jon O'Brien]

I believe it was the last v14 freeware I couldn't install. It would install about 90% then freeze up.

 

Ah-ha! That might explain the problems I had. It was the v14 free version I used, and that's not a bad way of describing it, that it didn't seem to fully install, and things didn't seem to completely work.

[Jay Young]

 

I know plenty of colorists using Resolve on Win10 with no problems (beyond the usual issues with Win10 auto-updating and breaking everything). We're using it on Linux and Windows 7. It's an incredibly stable application, but if you're talking about v15, I'd wait until it's at least at 15.2 or 15.3 before installing. It was just recently officially released, and the first few point releases after the major are usually a bit buggy. Unless you *need* 15, I'd stick with v14.3.x for now.

 

I'm having all kinds of issues with Resolve v15 on windows 10. They are sort of minor, but the main problem is that if you turn on the printer light hotkey, then Ctrl-F for full screen view, then go back to normal UI mode, the printer light hot keys no longer work. You have to go turn them off and then back on. Its very annoying.

[Nick Collingwood]

To swing this topic back a bit to the title... seems like prices will be going up a bit. Ektachrome is predicted to be $40/cart. Ouch. Cheaper than Provia 100D but... when you include a scan (which I reckon most people will want given online video and sharing) it'll still be more expensive than CN or BW. I understand that it's a very niche stock and demographic but man... Kodak is pricing out their own diehard customers! Sucks...

[Timothy Fransky]

To swing this topic back a bit to the title... seems like prices will be going up a bit. Ektachrome is predicted to be $40/cart. Ouch. Cheaper than Provia 100D but... when you include a scan (which I reckon most people will want given online video and sharing) it'll still be more expensive than CN or BW. I understand that it's a very niche stock and demographic but man... Kodak is pricing out their own diehard customers! Sucks...

 

That's $40 USD right? In Canada, any super 8 cart is pretty much $40 CAD. I've seen US prices for V3 and Tri-X at $29. Is this accurate?

[Nick Collingwood]

 

That's $40 USD right? In Canada, any super 8 cart is pretty much $40 CAD. I've seen US prices for V3 and Tri-X at $29. Is this accurate?

 

Yup. I mean it's just speculation but yes USD. Which is $10 more than the $30 for any Vision3 or Tri-X stock direct from Kodak. Places like B&H sell it for as high as $37 before taxes.

[Timothy Fransky]

 

Yup. I mean it's just speculation but yes USD. Which is $10 more than the $30 for any Vision3 or Tri-X stock direct from Kodak. Places like B&H sell it for as high as $37 before taxes.

 

Okay, yeah they generally price on par for Canada, but all the retailers are around $38.

[Aaron Razi]

I've skimmed this thread, so sorry if this post comes as a little off topic, but from an amateur perspective, shooting on Super 8 seems to be much more accessible. I shot on 16mm this summer and while it came out absolutely gorgeous, the price of a nice camera and the lack of a Kodak Color Reversal stock is pretty limiting. I probably did not look deep enough, but for a nice Bolex it was about $1500. Stocks and Development aren't cheap either. 40+ for a roll, and another 30 for development + telecine.

 

When comparing that against Super 8, I only paid 85 for my camera and around 30 for a stock. Development and Telecine are around 60, when compiled with shipping out to Burbank. Not that that is cheap or anything. In fact, my adoration for the medium is breaking my wallet, as I keep buying different stocks and tools. All jokes aside, it seems to be that Super 8 is much more embraced currently, at least by Kodak.

 

Financially, celluloid is not practical, but film never was intended to be. There's a great quote from a documentary titled Dying of the Light, that in reference to celluloid vs. digital, says that: "Americans will always prefer convenience over quality."

[Perry Paolantonio]

Not sure where you're looking for bolexes, but one that's in great shape should cost about half of that. For $1500 you could probably pick up a pretty nice sync sound camera. A quick check on ebay finds plenty of sub-$800 Arri S cameras and lots of ~$500 bolexes, Beulieu R16s, etc. I'm sure with some poking around you could find an SR1, Eclair or CP16 (all sync sound) for around $1500. They're out there.

 

In terms of costs, why send the film to Burbank if you're on the East Coast? Colorlab is in Maryland, Kodak has a 16mm lab in NY, Cinelab in Massachusetts. We have clients process at all of those labs and then send the film directly to us for scanning. Right now, S8 is actually pretty similar in price to 16mm, so the question is more about the look you want. Example:

 

100' Vision 3 50D 16mm from Kodak: $45

50' Vision 3 50D S8mm from Kodak: $30

100' 16mm Process at Cinelab, 2k scan with us: $62

50' Super 8 Process at Cinelab, 2k scan with us: $50

 

So there's a $20 difference. I didn't include shipping because it'd be about the same either way. But you're getting a totally different look, and there is a glut of great high quality 16mm cameras out there that have a lot more flexibility that most Super 8 cameras in terms of lens choice. Don't get me wrong, I love S8 and shoot it myself. But the cost difference isn't like it was 20+ years ago, when it was nearly double to shoot 16mm. (also, Kodak is supposed to ship a 16mm Ektachrome this year)

[Aaron Razi]

Not sure where you're looking for bolexes, but one that's in great shape should cost about half of that. For $1500 you could probably pick up a pretty nice sync sound camera. A quick check on ebay finds plenty of sub-$800 Arri S cameras and lots of ~$500 bolexes, Beulieu R16s, etc. I'm sure with some poking around you could find an SR1, Eclair or CP16 (all sync sound) for around $1500. They're out there.

 

Yup. I definitely have not been looking hard enough. But at the moment, I am more interested in S8 because it is more practical for my needs, and I adore the look.

 

 

In terms of costs, why send the film to Burbank if you're on the East Coast? Colorlab is in Maryland, Kodak has a 16mm lab in NY, Cinelab in Massachusetts. We have clients process at all of those labs and then send the film directly to us for scanning. Right now, S8 is actually pretty similar in price to 16mm, so the question is more about the look you want.

 

 

I send my film out to Pro8mm in Burbank, because while the shipping takes longer, having both the development and telecine done at once sounds a lot quicker. I can be quite impatient lol. However, the lower prices and higher quality are much more appealing once I start shooting reversal. I will probably develop at Cinelab, and send my reels over to you. Thanks so much for the detailed response.

[Nick Collingwood]

Aaron, at the very least, use CineLab for processing and scanning. They do both. I will say I really love the scans I get from Perry at Gamma Ray and that's currently my methods (CineLab for processing then GRD for scans) but if you want a much much cheaper all-in-one, use CineLab. Good people. A little mum on communication (unlike Perry who's very responsive) but they get the job done. And at like half the price of Pro8mm.

 

I applaud Pro8mm for their constant and widespread evangelizing of Super 8 but boy do they charge a premium for being the most well known/accessible. Definitely something I think some of the other labs should take note of and become more active on social media. But transitioning an old business models to more modern methods ain't always easy.

 

 

Also regarding 16mm vs S8... having just shot some of my first 16mm on my own, while the image is incredible... but to me at least, the adding trouble of 16mm is less than ideal (even had a jam on my K-3 during my shoot this weekend which suuuuuucked). Popping in and out S8 carts on the fly is so nice. And with a good camera like a Canon 814XL-S or Nizo 801, you can get very sharp images that could fool some people for 16mm. But that's not to say I don't have more 16mm shooting in my future (literally just bought like 6000' of mildly expired stock for a steal). Just not as run-and-gun as I like to be with Super 8.

[Aaron Razi]

Thanks for the response Nick! I would completely agree with you on Pro8mm. Their price for a 720p scan is outrageous, especially after shipping.

 

The program I attended this summer used Cinelab, and I am very familiar with how quiet they can be lol! Unfortunately, I shoot at 18fps, which Cinelab does not scan at HD. I am completely fine sending my film to two different places, though. Their proximity to me may even make turnaround times quicker than Pro8.

 

What do you guys know about the quality & prices of Rafik, in NYC?

[Nick Collingwood]

Thanks for the response Nick! I would completely agree with you on Pro8mm. Their price for a 720p scan is outrageous, especially after shipping.

 

The program I attended this summer used Cinelab, and I am very familiar with how quiet they can be lol! Unfortunately, I shoot at 18fps, which Cinelab does not scan at HD. I am completely fine sending my film to two different places, though. Their proximity to me may even make turnaround times quicker than Pro8.

 

What do you guys know about the quality & prices of Rafik, in NYC?

 

Well that's no reason not to get scans from them. That is easily remedied in your NLE (non-linear editor) like Adobe Premiere or Resolve or even Sony Vegas. You just interpret the clip at 18fps or slow the clip down to 75% speed then you should be fine. That's what I do for all my scans which come back to me as 24fps despite the fact that I shoot almost entirely at 18fps.

 

As far as Rafik, I only contacted them once, years ago, and they said $35/roll for a scan but I have absolutely no details on the quality or resolution of those scans/telecine. They don't have great reviews online so I'd probably avoid them. If you NEED Super 8 scans ASAP within NYC, MetroPost is really good with their 2k scans but a bit pricier than CL or GRD although no shipping. Also I'd probably avoid DiJiFi in Greenpoint as they have colossal wait-times when I used them (like 2 months to get back scans) and not the best job.

[Aaron Razi]

Good to know!

 

And I was curious if that would look choppy, but I suppose not, thanks!

[Perry Paolantonio]

And I was curious if that would look choppy, but I suppose not, thanks!

 

When you bring the footage into Resolve, before you do anything, use the Clip Attributes to set it to 18fps. This maps the frame rate 1:1 at that speed. That is, it just plays the 24fps file back a bit slower. There's no interpolation, just a speed change. Then make sure your timeline is also 18fps and that you output at 18fps. If you need to make it 24 when you're done do that to your final rendered film, in another project.

 

I would also point out that HD doesn't make a ton of sense to scan to with Super 8, unless you're using max8 cameras, I suppose, because the aspect ratios are totally mismatched. So 1440x1080 inside a 1080p 16:9 frame is about 1/2 the resolution of a 2048x1556 scan that matches the aspect ratio of your film. We charge the same for HD and 2k scans.

[Lee Mannering]

Greetings all. I started Super 8 filming in the 1960's and surprised to say have continued throughout my life shooting and physically editing Super 8 movies which has been joy throughout. Going back to the first topic we used to have a rule of thumb saying regarding the cost of cine aka film and shooting with film. You can save a great deal of money by having a good script to work from and sticking to shot times on it.

 

The end of Kodachrome 40 was a great loss for devotees but we did see some pick up the slack loading up cartridges with other reversal options which did help keep us filming. My lab fridge is pretty low on 100D and 64T so I really welcome the revived Ektachrome from Kodak and look forward to trying it in my Leicina Special which has consistently delivered every time.

 

Likewise I've scanned up a few of my Super 8 completed films along with original mag sound tracks I recorded and its good to have a digital record along with the actual films. Out of choice I prefer to project my Super 8 on a good quality sound projector of which so many were produced.

 

Carry on filming!

[Edwin Feliu]

I sympathize with the OP. When I got into this not long ago, I didn't realize a film would cost me $80 to $100 or more to develop and scan. That was sobering. But I know it's doable if I make sacrifices in other areas. It's worth it to me. I love film, and have shot 35mm most of my life. Not because of convenience, but because I love the patina of film. There's also the loveliness of handling an old camera and using related accessories. To me, film is an aesthetic experience. I shoot digital, too, but I keep returning to film after every dalliance with digital. Like Samuel said, when I want razor-sharp images and a low-cost alternative, I'll turn to digital. I also use digital when I want a look that reflects our times and age more accurately. But digital can't match the look of film, no matter the capacities of editing programs such as Lightroom and Photoshop. I know the OP realizes, this, too. There's poetry in cinematography because it forces one to condense: one doesn't have the luxury of unending shots. I like that challenge, and I get a high when I use my movie cameras.

[Jon O'Brien]

Digital cameras are great and necessary technology but a musical comparison to film is they're a bit like listening to a keyboard synthesizer playing Bach's solo sonatas and partitas on violin. Very impressive but just not the same and missing that earthiness and at the same time some spirit too that mysteriously seems to inhabit that simple wooden box. Same thing with a film compartment, where that little flickering image resides when the motor runs. Film cameras speak when they film, as if saying, okay I'm now doing my thing, pay attention as this all costs money.

[Lee Mannering]

Looking back at the first post. I've used quite a but of Fomapan this year in that Standard 8 Leicina and the results were nice in black and white. Back in the 90's I was shooting a drama film with out of date Super 8 Svema OCh-50 at a cost of around £8 then seeking to get a patchy look to the image which worked really well for a drug induced dream sequence. I'm guessing that old stock would still deliver similar results today as well for anyone looking for a Nosferatu sort of look. There's nothing quite like creating a super 8 film, cutting it, adding a sound track and projecting the finished article on a white screen in the dark. I didn't have a Lecina Special back then but I did loan one for the filming taking place over a couple of months immediately falling in love with it and some years later obtaining my own.

 

Super 8 awareness seemed to come out of the doldrums with the release of the feature film bearing the same name enjoying its second coming although for me I've not really put a 8mm camera down since the late 60's.

It sure has been fun...

[Alessandro Malfatti]

The cost of Super8? You wanna know about the cost of Super8? Well lemme tell you somethin'. The bill just arrived for my latest lab order at Andec. Developing of 8 cartridges of neg, plus 2 of b/w, and HD telecine. Cost me no less than 566,20€. And that's only lab costs, it doesn't even include film stock. This is getting expensive as hell. If I don't find me a better job I can forget about keeping up the ritzy lifestyle.

[Lee Mannering]

It can spiral if you let it. In the 70's 8mm was looked on as the poor mans film gauge in some cine clubs (film making groups) particularly by the 16mm big guns in the UK. However, once the high end cameras arrived with quality lenses from the likes of Nizo and Leicina things changed somewhat along with Super 8 sound projectors equipped with good lighting and German f1 lenses. Some of my documentaries and dramas filmed with those cameras on Kodachrome still look gorgeous when projected, sadly Kodachome is gone and todays younger generation are missing the yellow box of K40 at £13 including processing then waiting a week for that yellow packet to fly thru the letter box. Golden memories...

[Aaron Razi]

Quick Question: I know labs like Cinelab have discounts for developing in bulk ( like 8 cartridges). However, is there any financial advantage in waiting to send off a roll, so I could ship 2 or 3 cartridges together? Being from a younger generation, I'm cursed with growing up in a world of instant gratification, and I get to be impatient about this sort of thing. So, if I'm only shooting 1 at a time, is it worth waiting to send off some of my rolls? Thanks.