Jump to content
Samuel Berger

Sony FS5 II is Garbage

Recommended Posts

 

It records Long GOP 8 bit 4:2:0 internally, which is a sub-standard codec developed for streaming on the internet, not for camera originals.

 

Yes, you can use an external recorder to capture, but there will be a $1600 license fee to make your camera spit out raw + the external recorder.

 

It looks like the price will be close to the same as the 1st gen, which puts it at exactly the same price point as the Ursa Mini Pro. Which sure, doesn't have the slow-mo function, but it does record RAW internally AND all the flavors of Pro Res which are necessary for today's discerning clients.

 

 

DSLR world? What is this 2009? I mean if you don't own a $5k+ camera now, you aren't going to be excited about this new FS5MKII. As one reporter at NAB put it; this is the most incremental upgrade Sony has done since the FS7MKII. They're not really solving any of the major problems, they're just continuing to make out of date products that require add-on's to work.

 

.. HD is 10 bit 422 internal ..4K is 8bit.. internal.. but 10 bit from SDI to ext REC.. mostly they are rigged to Atomos without any license .. Fs5II RAW out is "free"

Edited by Robin R Probyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

.. HD is 10 bit 422 internal ..4K is 8bit.. internal.. but 10 bit from SDI to ext REC.. mostly they are rigged to Atomos without any license .. Fs5II RAW out is "free"

 

Sony needs to stop making garbage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Sony needs to stop making garbage.

 

 

Canon needs to stop making camera,s that resemble kettles... if only the two could get together ..Canon could tell Sony about REC709 color science and Sony could explain that a camera shouldn't ever be taller than it is long.. or you could just buy an Arri.. easy rig and 20 batteries ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.. HD is 10 bit 422 internal ..4K is 8bit.. internal.. but 10 bit from SDI to ext REC.. mostly they are rigged to Atomos without any license .. Fs5II RAW out is "free"

HD is also limited to 50Mbps (pretty useless bandwidth), so even if it's 10 bit 4:2:2, it's still Long GOP bullshit compression. No different then everything else Sony or Panasonic makes in that price range.

 

According to multiple sources, (and Sony's website) the "raw" has an asterisk next to it and when you see what it references, it's a special sony part number which leads you down to a license fee in order to record Raw. Now as it's an unreleased product, maybe Sony will be smart and include it with the price, but even their own website doesn't appear that way as they call it an "upgrade'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Canon needs to stop making camera,s that resemble kettles... if only the two could get together ..Canon could tell Sony about REC709 color science and Sony could explain that a camera shouldn't ever be taller than it is long.. or you could just buy an Arri.. easy rig and 20 batteries ..

The FS series cameras are poorly packaged too. They don't hand hold well, the button placement is all over the place (outside of a few) the menus are a mess. I mean there isn't anything positive to talk about with FS Sony's in terms of "use".

 

So both Canon and Sony need to learn from BMD, who with the Pocket 4k are now kicking the Japanese asses in pretty much every category outside of high speed and honestly, I still consider that a "speciality" market.

 

The problem is, the Japanese purposely hinder their cameras abilities in order to force users to buy the next model up. So the FS5 doesn't do 10 bit internally, so you're forced to buy an FS7. The FS7 imager ain't all that great, so you're forced to buy an F55. Then you need hardware to record Raw again... uggggggggg. You can't win because they don't want you to win. They want to sell F65's (now the venice) and all the other "camcorders" are designed specicificilly so you will want the F65.

 

Sony has been doing this forever... I remember back in the Betamax days, they purposely didn't put the Beta 1 speed on many machines that sold in Japan with the feature. They hindered the machines ability because they wanted it to be in a different market and not compete with their higher-end models, yet the internal components were identical to the Japanese unit. In fact, the SLHF900 requires desoldering a jumper and removing a sticker to convert it for Beta 1 record speed, making it fit perfectly in line with the SLHF750 and 1000 units which were the only two in the US sold with Beta 1 speed.

 

As a former Sony supporter, I look back and realize how wrong they were. But I will admit, their commercial division did make THE BEST equipment PERIOD. Sadly, those days are long gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But then how come the f5/55 have had 9 !! totally free firmware up dates if as you say they want to force you to buy the next camera .. your not being logical captain .. ‍✈️:) .. The fs7 and the f5 are actually very similar camera,s.. there is no way their goal is to force all the punters who buy Sony camera to buy a Venice !!..

 

Yes RAW license is included I believe Fs5 II..

 

Arri do the same with their license system.. ?

 

Fs series is a prosumer level ..fs5 is under $5K.. I mean come on.. as I said a Mattbox can cost more than that.. Canon C300 II .. was about $30K (until no one bought it and they halfed the price)..and still designed like a kettle.. I mean look at the sales figures .. Sony cant be doing that much wrong .. I dont have shares .. and for sure the "newer" REC 709 is way better than they have done so far.. bit of mind set and useless management I guess.. I wouldn't rush to buy the fs5 either.. as my main camera.. nor would I a BM.. or a C200.. its not my market.. for those in that market there the fs5 is a good camera in that price level..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to agree with Sam. This camera is not worth its price at all. Then again i'm a bit biased in that other than the Arri CMOS sensors and some of the newer Reds, i really for the most part can not stand how CMOS looks and have remained faithful to CCD technology in the cameras i own. I will only rent newer gear when a cilent asks for it but for my personal work.. CCD all the way. Seems like im not alone in this either.. lots of people seem to be using older cinema cameras like the F23/35, varicam and the like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike.. in the freelance market you are dead in the water with CCD now.. thats just the reality of the situation.. in all markets.. except maybe some sports coverage still shot with ENG .. Fs5 is rubbish 4K ,unless to EXT recorder.. in HD its totally fine.. 10 bit 422 HD .. the MkII even has the improved REC709 color set up.. its price is tiny.. and many many people are making a living using it.. there must be only a hand full of people making a living as freelance DP shooting with F23/35 as their primary camera.. if any..except for shooting their own projects.. Im not arguing quality .. but reality .. want to make money.. get a CMOS camera.. renting is a mugs game finically ..

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Canon needs to stop making camera,s that resemble kettles... if only the two could get together ..Canon could tell Sony about REC709 color science and Sony could explain that a camera shouldn't ever be taller than it is long.. or you could just buy an Arri.. easy rig and 20 batteries ..

Or you could buy an Ursa Mini and find it's all roughly the right shape and works quite nicely. Only apparently you just can't because... er...

 

...there's some reason it isn't OK, er...

 

I don't know.

 

P

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or you could buy an Ursa Mini and find it's all roughly the right shape and works quite nicely. Only apparently you just can't because... er...

 

...there's some reason it isn't OK, er...

 

I don't know.

 

P

 

Yes there is Im afraid.. its never ever requested .. its not a "standard" camera thats on any prod co,s list.. its just the way it is.. prod co,s only will shoot with the camera everyone else is using.. they dont know anything techie.. they just want to deal with what they and their post know about.. and the camera they hear about over a latte .. Black Magic is just not on the radar .. simple as that..shoot your own stuff.. of course Im sure its a totally fine camera.. but jobbing freelancer .. wont pay any bills..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As they used to say in the world of mainframe computers, "no one got fired for buying IBM". The Ursa Mini 4.6k doesn't seem to have shined in the EBU tests, which concludes: "This implies that the camera is not really suited to broadcast use without careful grading and noise reduction"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's my belief that the best camera I can possibly get for my particular needs is the Canon C200.

 

But I've been saying that for a year and the money has simply not appeared for it, so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Ursa Mini 4.6k doesn't seem to have shined in the EBU tests, which concludes: "This implies that the camera is not really suited to broadcast use without careful grading and noise reduction"

 

I haven't read that document, but I'm quite surprised by that.

 

Edit - I've now read the Newsshooter precis of it. They're mainly complaining about the IR sensitivity, which is fair comment and which I'm fairly sure is responsible for the pinkness of images shot in high IR ambient, and the fact that it's noisier than an Alexa - which it would be, having a sensor roughly the same size but which exceeds 4K. Alexa is also noisy at 800; noisier, I suspect, than an equivalent resolution image from the Blackmagic.

 

I would be interested to see if any of this has changed with the new firmware, and what better IR filtering woul do. And I'd be interested to see how FS5 and FS7 compare under the same criteria.

 

P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike.. in the freelance market you are dead in the water with CCD now.. thats just the reality of the situation.. in all markets.. except maybe some sports coverage still shot with ENG .. Fs5 is rubbish 4K ,unless to EXT recorder.. in HD its totally fine.. 10 bit 422 HD .. the MkII even has the improved REC709 color set up.. its price is tiny.. and many many people are making a living using it.. there must be only a hand full of people making a living as freelance DP shooting with F23/35 as their primary camera.. if any..except for shooting their own projects.. Im not arguing quality .. but reality .. want to make money.. get a CMOS camera.. renting is a mugs game finically ..

 

I understand where the market has gone. But to say that freelancing with CCD cameras wont get you hired is a load of bull. Maybe getting hired by people who want something specific like 4K or something I can understand, but like i said, all you have to do is rent. I boarded the 2/3' camera train a little over 4 years ago and for something to own i have not looked back. Contrary to your belief i had plenty of freelance work with my Varicam and F900s back in Chicago. I think that as long as you get an image out of your tools that the client who is paying you likes, it shouldnt matter what it is.

 

If i had the money to finance a camera like the new varicam or the amira i would, but i dont and in my budget for something to own i prefer CCD cameras and im getting paid work with them. Saying renting is a mugs game is pretty stupid if you ask me. Tons of people rent gear around the globe and make money doing it. I worked at VER i should know ;). We had cameras going out left and right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What sort of work are you getting with ⅔ inch ENG cameras.. ?? I haven't or anyone I know .. had a request for them for about 4 years now.. I would be totally broke if I had hung onto my PMW500.. / HDX900.. again Im not arguing quality and it shouldn't matter what it is.. but thats not the real world..there is always a camera requested or they want to know what you have.. Im doing corps and doc.s/broadcast.. in that market ⅔ has gone completely .. not just for 4K..

 

Buying gear, if you are an owner operator is actually far more profitable .. as long as you buy the camera that is the popular one.. my camera/lenses have paid for themselves many times over in just 5 years.. now that cameras are so cheap its even more of a better idea.. each day I work my gear makes alot more than just me with a pulse .. that would all go to a rental house.. you have less hassle picking up etc .. you know it works !! .you can customize the rig to your liking.. and these days maintenance is zero.. seriously if you shoot and supply the camera..and know your market ..or the work you want to do.. buy the gear you need .. and you will be quids in.. every single freelance dp I know who is hired for work that includes the camera package.. own their own camera. /lenses/lights/audio/tripod etc .. and a van to put it all in .. and you charge for it :).. its even tax deductible when you buy it.. the problem is some production companies have discovered the golden egg and buy their own gear too now.. no one is making money renting gear.. the rental company is .. :)

Edited by Robin R Probyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I haven't read that document, but I'm quite surprised by that.

 

Edit - I've now read the Newsshooter precis of it. They're mainly complaining about the IR sensitivity, which is fair comment and which I'm fairly sure is responsible for the pinkness of images shot in high IR ambient, and the fact that it's noisier than an Alexa - which it would be, having a sensor roughly the same size but which exceeds 4K. Alexa is also noisy at 800; noisier, I suspect, than an equivalent resolution image from the Blackmagic.

 

I would be interested to see if any of this has changed with the new firmware, and what better IR filtering woul do. And I'd be interested to see how FS5 and FS7 compare under the same criteria.

 

P

 

Phil . Im not saying anything about the quality of the Ursa.. just that for the jobbing DP.. its never requested ..its not a "known" brand.. they would say.. oh never heard of that camera.. can you supply an fs7/f5/55/Amira/Canon c300II... "no.. but the Blackmagic ...".. phone hangs up.. shooting your own stuff.. Im sure its a great camera..

 

Spelling edit

Edited by Robin R Probyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What sort of work are you getting with ⅔ inch ENG cameras.. ?? I haven't or anyone I know .. had a request for them for about 4 years now.. I would be totally broke if I had hung onto my PMW500.. / HDX900.. again Im not arguing quality and it shouldn't matter what it is.. but thats not the real world..there is always a camera requested or they want to know what you have.. Im doing corps and doc.s/broadcast.. in that market ⅔ has gone completely .. not just for 4K..

 

Buying gear, if you are an owner operator is actually far more profitable .. as long as you buy the camera that is the popular one.. my camera/lenses have paid for themselves many times over in just 5 years.. now that cameras are so cheap its even more of a better idea.. each day I work my gear makes alot more than just me with a pulse .. that would all go to a rental house.. you have less hassle picking up etc .. you know it works !! .you can customize the rig to your liking.. and these days maintenance is zero.. seriously if you shoot and supply the camera..and know your market ..or the work you want to do.. buy the gear you need .. and you will be quids in.. every single freelance dp I know who is hired for work that includes the camera package.. own their own camera. /lenses/lights/audio/tripod etc .. and a van to put it all in .. and you charge for it :).. its even tax deductible when you buy it.. the problem is some production companies have discovered the golden egg and buy their own gear too now.. no one is making money renting gear.. the rental company is .. :)

 

I'm getting sports, weddings, music videos, and real estate tours. Thats the work I was getting before I moved to Denver. The great thing about my situation is that the varicam i had paid for itself in about 2 or 3 jobs given the camera cost a hell of a lot less than in their hayday. I sold my varicam and used that money to buy the Panavision F900 along with some tax return money i got. So in my situation, i am not delinquent money for what i have invested in. I am shooting football games for a team my brother is head coaching and the team is very very happy with the images i am giving them. Like i said, rental companies like VER still have revolving clients taking out the F800, Chain CCU sony packages, EX3s and so on.. older gear is still very much making its rounds and thats great. There are people on both ends of the spectrum and there is nothing wrong with either. If you want to invest in older gear for a hell of a lot less than what it was new and work with that either for hire or hobby thats okay. If you are more into modern gear and you want to invest in it, cool, the option is there. I dont discriminate against what can and cant be used for a project and i know there are others like me who think the same. Hell, the good ol HVX200 was renting out at VER Chicago at least once a week in the eight months i was working there, same with those EX3s and F800.. even the tape varicam model i owned was going out. We had old XDCAM and HDCAM SR decks transferring and going out.. and in my eyes it means there is still a market for this gear, even if its going to a business convention at a hotel or something.. work is work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the problem.. "I don't discriminate against what can and cant be used for a project and i know there are others like me who think the same.".. thats great for shooting your brothers footie team games..or a mates music video.. but in the actual freelance world..that statement is Im afraid a bit naive.. . you dont discriminate but guess what.. the production company does very much so..and you will find that 99.9% they will want s35 sensor size and 4K capability ..

 

​.. .. you have work thats great.. but 99% of wedding/real estate video is 5D/Sony A series on a RoninS and a drone.. you are probably in the less than 1% that is using a ⅔ inch ENG camera for this type of work.. ENG is dead in the water..doc,s and corps the same.. its just an un deniable fact.. I had 5 of them over the years.. all lovely but they stopped making any money..

 

​My only point or maybe even if I dare say advise.(.I read you are looking for more work in another thread.). was that if you want to make a living as a freelancer .. ie not just shooting your own or mates stuff.. any ENG camera as your primary camera is a losing hand.. you need 4K and s35mm sensor.. and your way better off buying that gear than renting.. over and out.. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the problem.. "I don't discriminate against what can and cant be used for a project and i know there are others like me who think the same.".. thats great for shooting your brothers footie team games..or a mates music video.. but in the actual freelance world..that statement is Im afraid a bit naive.. . you dont discriminate but guess what.. the production company does very much so..and you will find that 99.9% they will want s35 sensor size and 4K capability ..

 

​.. .. you have work thats great.. but 99% of wedding/real estate video is 5D/Sony A series on a RoninS and a drone.. you are probably in the less than 1% that is using a ⅔ inch ENG camera for this type of work.. ENG is dead in the water..doc,s and corps the same.. its just an un deniable fact.. I had 5 of them over the years.. all lovely but they stopped making any money..

 

​My only point or maybe even if I dare say advise.(.I read you are looking for more work in another thread.). was that if you want to make a living as a freelancer .. ie not just shooting your own or mates stuff.. any ENG camera as your primary camera is a losing hand.. you need 4K and s35mm sensor.. and your way better off buying that gear than renting.. over and out.. :)

 

You have your opinions and I have mine. I get work from "non friends" with my equipment. I watched for 8 months as people were shooting real jobs on older equipment that they rented. I am telling you that I agree that a lot of people want newer equipment and thats fine but im telling you that you are wrong in that people do not shooting gigs on older gear that puts money in their pocket.. ive seen it and i am apart of it. Maybe in your experience you havent seen the same and thats fine.. but I have seen different and you cant discredit it because you have not experienced the same... go over to DVXuser, you will see people talking about how they are using older cameras (most notably the F23 and 35) on both hobby and paying gigs. Also, The gigs i had in Chicago with my older gear were not friends of mine.. to think the only work i was getting was for friends is a tad insulting, as if i were to ever shoot for people i know its an inferer job.. no, i was hired by people who knew me only from my work and i shot with older gear, got paid nicely and had a satisfied customer.

 

to each his own :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry wasn't meaning to be insulting at all..apologies.. I presumed wrongly .. well I have to say Im truly amazed there is work out there for ⅔ sensors .. its really 100% not the case for me or anyone else I know around the world.. all power to you.. but if Im ever asked from someone starting out.. I would still say in great wide world.. s35 /4k is the way to go..

 

Sorry again if my manner seemed insulting .. I think I have a bad gauge for that !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry wasn't meaning to be insulting at all..apologies.. I presumed wrongly .. well I have to say Im truly amazed there is work out there for ⅔ sensors .. its really 100% not the case for me or anyone else I know around the world.. all power to you.. but if Im ever asked from someone starting out.. I would still say in great wide world.. s35 /4k is the way to go..

 

Robin, any idea what NHK is shooting on? They seem to use a lot of Varicams...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Robin, any idea what NHK is shooting on? They seem to use a lot of Varicams...

 

 

Not 100% sure Ive never worked for them directly.. the last time I did was a BBC Bristol Nat history /NHK co production ..a few years back in that case the cameras / lenses were supplied by NHK.. and the camera assistant .. to keep an eye on their gear !.. we had Sony f55,s..Fujinon lenses.. traditionally Sony and NHK have been in bed together... Sony would pretty much give them a huge amount of cameras, as there are a million tiny prod co,s making stuff for NHK too..and they would have to follow suit .. NHK also had this 8K thing for years and actually didnt go 4K till very late as they hoped to heap frog it and go straight to 8K.. the NHK techie guy with us at the time told us it was basically down to a petty arrogance within NHK wanting to be "world leaders"..and have the West look up to them.. his words not mine.. but I can well believe it.. Sony may have lost their strangle hold on NHK these days .. the S35 Varicam is popular with nat history people with its 5000 ISO setting.. Ive used it too for a night shoot.. pretty good.. so sorry I dont really know the answer.. but generally I,d say Sony is still by far the dominant TV/ Corp camera in Japan.. And Alexa/Mini for features /commercials..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I understand where the market has gone. But to say that freelancing with CCD cameras wont get you hired is a load of bull. Maybe getting hired by people who want something specific like 4K or something I can understand, but like i said, all you have to do is rent. I boarded the 2/3' camera train a little over 4 years ago and for something to own i have not looked back. Contrary to your belief i had plenty of freelance work with my Varicam and F900s back in Chicago. I think that as long as you get an image out of your tools that the client who is paying you likes, it shouldnt matter what it is.

Just because a person does freelance work with a CCD camera doesn't mean it is a good recommendation for that camera.

 

You said you're doing " sports, weddings, music videos, and real estate tours", well there are people still doing those with old Canon 5D mk2 or even Canon Rebel cameras!! Does that mean either is a good idea to recommend anybody else buy? Nope!

 

Could you have got just as much work with a Sony PMW-F3 or Canon C100? (both which seem to go for around the same price as a F900?) Probably.

 

Or what about even if you'd got say 2x Panasonic G85/G7 cameras for some IBIS and multi camera shooting? Could you have done just as well? Probably.

 

In fact not only would I say "probably", but for most people they'd even go further in their freelance career if they'd gone with one of these other options instead of a 2/3" CCD camera.

Edited by David Peterson
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Glidecam



    Abel Cine



    New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment



    Ritter Battery



    Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS



    Tai Audio



    G-Force Grips



    Just Cinema Gear



    Metropolis Post



    Visual Products



    Gamma Ray Digital Inc



    Rig Wheels Passport



    FJS International



    Serious Gear



    CineLab



    Wooden Camera



    Paralinx LLC



    Broadcast Solutions Inc


×
×
  • Create New...