Jump to content
Adam Worth

Lighting choices in a huge hangar

Recommended Posts

I’m shooting a low budget ($5k) music video in a large hangar with walls about 150 feet by 100 feet. It has existing overhead discharge lighting that I’m forced to use due to budget. color temp of the lights is about 4500k, fstop 4.5 with overheads only. Pic of space attached.

 

A rock band will perform in the middle of the space, about 75 feet from the wall (where the lighting setup will be). I was just hoping for some standard dramatic side lighting on their faces and maybe a little kick on the fill side. The record label requested it not be too 'bright.'

I'm mostly concerned about lighting them in wide shots cuz i need lots of throw. And I only need to light the band nicely, i dont need to light the location, besides some quasar 2 foot light tubes on the walls in the background.

And i think i'm covered for close ups - my existing lighting kit includes 3x litegear litemat 1x1 led panels, an astra 6x led panel , an Apurture 300D daylight balanced, and a small Arri tungsten kit - 650, 300, 150.. & for close ups I do plan to flag the overheads.

 

SO my question - The plan i have was to get 2-3 800w jokers, and light the band from about 75 feet (and a bit high up maybe) thru diffusion (Hampshire frost) and 1/4 CTO to get that temperature equal to the overhead lighting at around 4500k.

Is there a better way to do this? Could i use my apurture 300D or astra 6x at 75 feet to save money?

Or am I on the right track with a few 800w jokers and 1/4 CTO? Also i already need to adjust my shutter and FPS for the existing light, to avoid flicker - so i can't have any lights i order have the potential to flicker.

Is there a better choice in gel, for a natural but flattering look under this lighting?

post-76009-0-66838900-1545347361_thumb.jpg

Edited by Adam Worth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if this is teaching the proverbial grand mother to suck eggs.. but I would check for flicker off those sodium discharge lights.. esp if your doing any slo mo..they can be nasty in comparison to fluorescent ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah just saw your other post..from my own experience .. as Stuart says.. 23.98p go with 1/60th .. in the US as this matching the 60Hz electrical supply.. in 50Hz countries would be 23.98p 1/50th..

 

For slo mo I would also keep to speeds divisible by the 60hz .. eg 60/120/240.. and double the shutter.. eg 100 fps will give you trouble in 60 hz supply.. but sometimes these sodium lights dont play by the rules and can be a real pain .. shoot tests the only really safe way to do it.. play back on a decent monitor and also check the distant background.. so many slomo shots ruined by some light up there back that you dont really check and then boom there it is flickering away and you wish the ground would swallow you up.. !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks for mentioning, yea i've shot some tests and there is some flickering, as i've detailed in this separate post. Any help is appreciated there too:!

Whats the safest FPS to shoot in? Is 23.98 ok? Etc

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=78678&hl=

test footage is here

Sorry if this is teaching the proverbial grand mother to suck eggs.. but I would check for flicker off those sodium discharge lights.. esp if your doing any slo mo..they can be nasty in comparison to fluorescent ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scrap the overheads. Those factory scoop lights are horrific (green one cycle, magenta the next). I'd kill them entirely and build up something more attractive with movie lights.

If you can rig a back light up on the crossbeams, that'd be ideal - but probably requires hiring a cherry picker (which might not be in the budget).

I'd be aiming to keep light off the walls and ceiling, as the light colour will kill your contrast as the spill goes everywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.red.com/flicker-free-video

 

 

23.98p yes should be safe.. its shutter speed that matters more .. 180 degree,s is not usually going to work with practical lights .. ie 1/48th.. you want too shoot 1/60th.. to match the US 60Hz.. the same hangar in the UK would be 23.98p 1/50th as 50 Hz supply... Japan uniquely I think, has both 50 and 60 Hz in different parts of the country..

 

Same with slo mo.. I try to keep it divisible by the Hz and then double the shutter .. but unlike fluorescent these sodium lights can be weird and usually their CT is all over the place.. I do shoots for Boeing and ANA and dread these lights.. I ask for the doors to be opened to over power them with day light when ever possible.. although often the reply is to behave like my pay grade.. :)

 

Mark is right of course.. if you can just switch them off and bring in some HMI,s or something its going to a lot less flat.. and bright.. and you won't have to worry about flicker .. hard to be moody with this things on..you would almost have to go for flat bright look..

Edited by Robin R Probyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doors open IS an option - i just figured that would be so hard to control... i cant put a silk over the big hangar doors y'know.. i can possibly do some tests with this tho. Should i just let the natural light in and do its thing? Just put some diffusion over the talent for close ups?

 

https://www.red.com/flicker-free-video

 

 

23.98p yes should be safe.. its shutter speed that matters more .. 180 degree,s is not usually going to work with practical lights .. ie 1/48th.. you want too shoot 1/60th.. to match the US 60Hz.. the same hangar in the UK would be 23.98p 1/50th as 50 Hz supply... Japan uniquely I think, has both 50 and 60 Hz in different parts of the country..

 

Same with slo mo.. I try to keep it divisible by the Hz and then double the shutter .. but unlike fluorescent these sodium lights can be weird and usually their CT is all over the place.. I do shoots for Boeing and ANA and dread these lights.. I ask for the doors to be opened to over power them with day light when ever possible.. although often the reply is to behave like my pay grade.. :)

 

Mark is right of course.. if you can just switch them off and bring in some HMI,s or something its going to a lot less flat.. and bright.. and you won't have to worry about flicker .. hard to be moody with this things on..you would almost have to go for flat bright look..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doors open IS an option - i just figured that would be so hard to control... i cant put a silk over the big hangar doors y'know.. i can possibly do some tests with this tho. Should i just let the natural light in and do its thing? Just put some diffusion over the talent for close ups?

 

 

 

just saying what I do sometimes in Hangars but its for short time periods .. yes it might be a problem if your there all day and into the evening..if its a quick ish shoot and no direct sun I guess an alternative to the sodium lights ..but its still going to be pretty flat.. and some risk involved weather wise .. I think best is lighting it with your own lights for sure and having full control .. not sure how far you can push that camera ISO wise.. but if its only the band you need to light rather than the whole hangar.. and they already said they want it "not too bright".. then even smaller HMI.s would probably do it 575.. 1.2K etc.. as Mark says..

Edited by Robin R Probyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to shoot commercials in supermarkets that had sodium lighting, it was always a pain to make it look good. For a music video I'd be inclined to be more stylized and switch off the sodium lights and be a bit more theatrical about it. .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm estimating that the hanger is about 25' to the peak of the roof. To do anything other than turn the HID lights off you are going to need a man-lift. Is that in your budget?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea i have a $2000 lighting budget so a man-lift and a ceiling rig of some kind isn't in the budget, although that would be cool. Also, the band and record label want to keep it simple, and just highlight the band and their performance / less is more / guerilla approach.

Based on your guy's input, i'm leaning towards turning off the overheads, getting a couple 5k HMI's and a 1k HMI, 10 quasar tubes on the background, and hope thats enough to light the space and band. If not i'll open the doors a bit? What do you think ?

 

I'm estimating that the hanger is about 25' to the peak of the roof. To do anything other than turn the HID lights off you are going to need a man-lift. Is that in your budget?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think $2000 is a joke for a music video. How will you power the lighting? a 6K HMI draws 65A, a 5k Tungsten 40A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bigger question is what look are you going for?

 

If you don't need to light the space and just the band - the question would be do you need different "looks" for different parts of the song.

 

E.g you could go for a more theatrical/concert feel. Rent a couple of moving heads. Key the band with source 4's and use Par 64's as back lights. Might be tight on the budget but there are always deals to be made.

 

Or if it were me I'd be thinking about using lots of "practical" type lights to show the depth of the space.

 

Or $2k would buy a lot of Xmas tree lights.

 

I made this video with about 15 sets of Xmas lights, 2 x 800w Open faces and 2 x Kino 4 banks.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i appreciate everyones input! The situation is i need to show off the space, i cant let it fall to black. When i came onboard i was asked to just show the band in a lot of wide shots, interacting and playing together. The space needs to be visible - they wanted a bit of an 'unlit' look. they said 'not too bright.'

i thought i would, based on the input provided here, open the hangar doors (winter in NJ!:) and turn off the overheads.

I got approval for some 2' quasar tubes in the background. I thought i might get 10-12. Then try to side light the band with a 1k HMI as suggested by Robin. Another couple 5k's, one for fill, and a couple source fours to play on the background. I just want to have enough lighting to cover my butt., and the video was pitched as a simple performance video in a nice space, without anything too fancy as far as lighting design.

thanks all!

 

you can see more photos and a pic of the space with doors open and overhead lights off here

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a4vrvs8bwx9qn7n/AAAku_pTlaWzB6M0A3yktzcSa?dl=0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

great idea, yup i needed that behind the band shot anyway, and was wondering how.

 

I think shooting in the direction of the open doors, with the band silhouetted in the foreground could look interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think $2000 is a joke for a music video. How will you power the lighting? a 6K HMI draws 65A, a 5k Tungsten 40A.

 

We call that a "British Budget."

 

As a point of order, it's common for people to call any industrial discharge lighting "sodium," though most of it now, unless it's bright orange, will actually be ceramic metal halide. In many jurisdictions, mercury vapour is no longer used because it contains lots of mercury, which is highly toxic. Ceramic also contains mercury, but a lot less.

 

Ceramic lighting can have reasonably decent colour rendering. Arri sell the Studio Ceramic 250 which I suspect uses more or less the same technology as is in those lights, and I've used (clones of) ETC Source Four PARs which are or were commonly made to suit 150W ceramic bulbs.

 

As you've found, they're often deployed with magnetic ballasts that cause flicker at the mains frequency. That can be handled using the standard techniques discussed in this thread depending on your local mains frequency and desired frame rate. The electronic ballasts are very often flicker-free right up to high frame rates, which is great, although sometimes they may cause flicker at almost any frequency depending on the specifics of their design. That's rare, though.

 

One good way to determine what's going on is to find a combination of shutter speed and frame rate that maximises the visibility of flicker. If they're all flickering together, there's a very good chance they're on mains, so you can deal with it that way. If flicker is visible but they're all going at different times and rates, they're clearly being driven by rare, flickery electronic ballasts you are... what's the word... screwed. The only exception to this is if they're clearly going in a sequence of three steps, in which case, again, they're almost certainly being mains driven from three different phases. This is often done in places like indoor sports arenas where people need to see a fast-moving ball and it's a bad idea for it to be visible only as a series of intermittent streaks through the air.

 

P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though you said that you were looking for a "unlit" and "natural" look I am going to suggest something completely different and maybe it will give you some ideas.

 

You have some windows in your hangar so, open one of them if you can, place the band nearby and put a molebeam outside the window directed towards the band or to the ground, put some haze in the hangar if you can and there you go, you see the band, you show a little bit of the hangar, you have your two quasar in the background and you are pretty much lit for everything.

 

Alternatively, if your budget stretches a bit more you could open more windows and place more molebeams outside to create several shafts of light.

 

This is coming from a person who really hates shafts of light :D but I'd say that it would be a nice solution for your problem and budget.

 

Have a lovely day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It also depends on your crew's capabilities. You should check how much a scissor lift is to rent at least for the backlights, the hanger probably has one for $200-300. I know that the key grips I work with would be asking me where the backlight overhead was going and how many lights were going in it. The space does seem perfect for an overhead softbox to backlight talent and light the whole space, but if your crew can't do that quickly its probably not worth it., but it would be dope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks thats good advice. I'm afraid the scissor lift is out of budget (cuz of the needed truck to bring it) and the hangar's scissor lift is being repaired.

I did pitch the overhead softbox first thing. The band wanted a more natural look. Also yes my crew is kinda young and inexperienced.

You've inspired me to put my 5K (or a source four?) way up high and directly behind the band for backlighting. maybe with diffusion.

And the 1k as a key light. Possibly another 5k or source four as fill. i'll also have quasars lighting them up on 2-3 sides too.

still havent placed my lighting order so i'm very much appreciating your input!

 

It also depends on your crew's capabilities. You should check how much a scissor lift is to rent at least for the backlights, the hanger probably has one for $200-300. I know that the key grips I work with would be asking me where the backlight overhead was going and how many lights were going in it. The space does seem perfect for an overhead softbox to backlight talent and light the whole space, but if your crew can't do that quickly its probably not worth it., but it would be dope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Wooden Camera



    New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment



    Tai Audio



    Serious Gear



    Visual Products



    Glidecam



    CineLab



    Metropolis Post



    Abel Cine



    Rig Wheels Passport



    Paralinx LLC



    Broadcast Solutions Inc



    Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS



    Gamma Ray Digital Inc



    Ritter Battery


×
×
  • Create New...