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Derick Crucius

Question about film print

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Hey all!

 

Ill try to keep this question quick and simple. Im an experimental filmmaker and like to process my own film. I want to try to splice some 16mm color reversal together with some hand processed b&w neg.

 

To achieve a positive for the b&w in my print would I have to get a timed print made of the b&w stock and splice that to the color and then make an internegative from my finished cut?

 

I am not dealing with a&b rolls, this would be a single strand piece. Im fine with splice marks and such.

 

A second question, say I cut my camera neg to the color reversal. If I were to have this scanned, would my b&w be positive in the scan or a negative?

 

Im trying to keep costs down as much as possible so Id like to work with originals.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

-Derick

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If you dupe the b&w neg to a fine-grain positive or a print using contact printing, it would put the emulsion on the other side of the base than the reversal original, so you might have to flip the dupe to keep the emulsion on the same side, which I guess is possible with regular 16mm but not Super-16. If you used an optical printer, you could keep the emulsion of the dupe on the same side but I don't know how many people have 16mm optical printers anymore.

 

Your scan of positives would stay positive and your scan of negatives would stay negative. Generally at some point, a scan of a negative is electronically reversed into a positive. But if you're going to be working with scans, then why not splice all the negative on one roll and all the positive on another roll, assuming you don't want to just scan uncut camera rolls?

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Thanks David, I would be using reg 16. If I flipped the dupe would there be any change in image or anything like that?? What would be the difference in image, if any?

 

I could scan the negative separately, but I wanted to have a digital representation as well as a projection print, for the off chance that I may be able to screen the film as a print versus a DCP.

 

I jus wanted to get any advice before I begin splicing a project to what whats possible and what I should steer clear from. aesthetically Id prefer not to use a&b roll, I want the film to have a raw and rough feel to it, so splice markings and other artifacts are welcomed.

 

If I were to get a print of just the b&w negative, what would render the best quality for splicing? Perhaps I should keep this project only reversal based and use Tri-X? I just have a ton of 7222 laying around that I want to use.

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Flipping will only work with double-perf, and of course the image will be left-right reversed. But it may be the only way to get both colour and b/w in a positive print.

As to staying in reversal, you may have answered your own question. That way you can keep costs right down- you can project the original. Risky, and get it scanned first, but doable.

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If you really want to make a contact 16mm print, Id recommend A-B rolls because there is such a huge printer light change between color and b&w plus wouldnt you dupe the color reversal to negative, not the b&w to positive, if you wanted to make a contact print? Or were you going to use color reversal camera stock as a printing stock?

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Thanks so much for the tips, Mark & David.

 

Honestly Im just trying to figure out the cheapest way to work with what I have stocked up which is expired color reversal and b&w neg. Your advice is incredibly helpful, thanks a ton.

 

Heres just one last question. If I were to shoot on color neg, would I be able to get a timed print, work with that, and create a CIN from that for dupes instead of ever having to cut the camera original neg? Id like to try to take a negative cutter out of the equation, again simply for costs.

Id splice my own color neg, but the orange mask makes it hard to get an accurate representation of color. Would a CIN of my workprint degrade the image quality cvs working with the original negative?

 

Best,

Derick

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What are trying to end up when you say dupes? Dupes for what? Are you trying to make a16mm projection print? A 35mm print?

 

What’s a CIN? Color internegative?

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The cheapest, simplest way might be to process your B&W as reversal. So experimenting with the processing to see if you get a useful image that way might be a next step. I never did reversal processing, but I think in simple (simplistic?) terms, after development a bleach washes away the exposed silver, then the remaining emulsion is exposed to light, then developed and fixed.

 

You can find descriptions online. Found this one after writing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_processing

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Ditto on the reversal processing of b/w neg. The speed drops a lot though.

I can't help thinking that making an IN would be an expensive way of avoiding a neg cut. Since you've said you'd accept splice marks, you could always tape splice the colour neg for printing. Cut your workprint, then match the neg to it via the edge numbers. Tedious but doable if you're organised and log your rushes.

Edited by Mark Dunn

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Thanks everyone, ideally Id like to make a projection print in 16, so when I say dupe I mean print.

 

CIN meaning color internegative.

 

The reason I ask if I could make an IN of a timed work print is because Id like to experiment with scratching and paint on the film, and if I were to do this with the negative, the printed image wouldnt be accurate to what I set out to do. Can this be done and would an IN of my cut print yield a good quality image when striking prints for future screenings? How about for scanning? Id like to also get these scanned for festival entries or to release on the web, but Id like to have a physical print to project as well when the opportunity arises.

 

I could splice my negative to match my print, no problem. I have a hot splicer though so Id be using cement.

 

Thanks everyone

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Again, how would you make a contact print off of a color reversal original? Its normally a negative-to-positive process. Do you plan on using the color reversal original as if it were the workprint (and it wouldnt be timed then) and then splice a b&w print from a b&w neg into that? Then to make a print of that, youd have to first dupe the print to an IN. And youd still have the issue of the emulsion being on the wrong side unless you flipped the reversal original.

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Just to remind you that anything other than a tape splice will show as part of the frame is overlapped.

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David, my apologies. For this specific question Im referring to working with color negative, not reversal. I should have specified that this is an entirely new inquiry.

 

Mark, thats fine. I also have press tapes if I need to use them for whatever reason.

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You'd certainly need to go via IN and print to reproduce painted film accurately, because there's no longer a reversal print stock. The IN would be graded, so the print could be one-light. There's undoubtedly some loss of quality though, and it would cost quite a bit.

If you fancy building your own contact printer, you could wait for the new 16mm. Ektachrome and copy onto that. The contrast would go up quite a bit. Or copy frame-by-frame with a camera from a projector with still-frame capability.

In the past it wasn't uncommon for film artists to film projected images, but usually for an artistic effect, rather than a straight copy.

Edited by Mark Dunn

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