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Help me choose? Nikon Z6 vs Fuji XT3 vs Sony A7III


Samuel Berger

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Looks like the GH5 can also be financed. Darn, the more choices there are, the longer it takes to make a choice. The GH5S is also on the list now. Funny, it wasn't there this morning.

I wonder if the metabones EF to MFT I have on my BMPCC would work on a GH5S.

@aapo lettinen why the GH5s instead of the GH5? Looks like it has no IBIS.

Edited by Samuel Berger
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I absolutely despise the GH5, I'm shocked anyone uses them. They create such a plastic-like image with horrible incomprehensible menus, that have every key function buried 7 layers deep. Audio issues up the whazoo even with the XLR input box. The codec is unrecognizable in anything but Adobe Premiere or Media Encoder. The Panasonic lens selection blows, the auto focus does not work at all. The lenses are impossible to use outside of stills. I could create a 20 page diatribe on why the camera is garbage, but IDK if you wanna hear that. 

Again, I don't know why you don't contemplate the Pocket Cinema 4k. At this very unusual time to choose a new camera (before NAB 2019), honestly it's the only camera on the market that checks all the boxes in my book. Why is it being discounted in yours? Availability? 

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3 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Again, I don't know why you don't contemplate the Pocket Cinema 4k. At this very unusual time to choose a new camera (before NAB 2019), honestly it's the only camera on the market that checks all the boxes in my book. Why is it being discounted in yours? Availability?  

Well, nobody can buy one...especially people like me who have to finance it.

Also, no flippy screen...

Edited by Samuel Berger
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6 minutes ago, Samuel Berger said:

Well, nobody can buy one...especially people like me who have to finance it.

Also, no flippy screen...

They'll have models out soon. I have a feeling they're getting close to fulfilling the orders.

The flippy screens snap off very easily with one minor mistake. Plus, they're a compromised design because they need to put so much mechanics into them. The pocket 4k doesn't have those issues, it has a beautiful and large display. Plus it's recessed from the camera housing, where the A7SMKIII display is not and can easily be damaged. 

I thought you were going to sell some film stuff to buy a camera? 

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4 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I thought you were going to sell some film stuff to buy a camera? 

If the BMPCC 4K were possible to buy, I would have already bought one. But I just want something to hold me over until I have enough for the Canon C200.  I watched too much Jared Polin.

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Meh, C200 is passe. The Raw files it creates are the only good thing about it and even then, it's a very limited camera compared to the C300MKII which doesn't do raw, but shoots a more standard XAVC-I codec. They'll both be out of date cameras by the time you can afford to buy either one sadly. They're already long in the tooth. 

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3 hours ago, Samuel Berger said:

Looks like the GH5 can also be financed. Darn, the more choices there are, the longer it takes to make a choice. The GH5S is also on the list now. Funny, it wasn't there this morning.

I wonder if the metabones EF to MFT I have on my BMPCC would work on a GH5S.

@aapo lettinen why the GH5s instead of the GH5? Looks like it has no IBIS.

bmpcc speed booster probably does not work with the GH series.

the GH5s has for example v-log already enabled in factory and dual iso capabilities. the original GH5 is not as versatile due to the older sensor. the price difference is not that much when starting to calculate it further.

purchasing a separate recorder (for example atomos) complicates the choices further because the memory card costs and internal bitrates don't matter then that much anymore. The lens mount thing is very challenging because most of the adapters lack full electronic controls (for example there is no EF to NikonZ adapter which enable electronic aperture adjustments even when normal fully muchanical EF to NZ adapters are common and very affordable) which is why it is easiest to switch camera bodies when you have fully mechanical lenses with aperture rings and mechanical focusing. For example Nikon AI-S lenses are pretty versatile, you can use them with almost any camera with adapters so that you never need to purchase new lenses unless needing certain wide angles or PL mount ones.

Sadly the metabones ef boosters with full lens control are pretty expensive and it may make economically more sense to sell the EF lenses and purchase completely new lenses than to spend lots of money to the booster to adapt the old ones. The Chinese speed booster copies may be actually pretty OK for normal uses but they don't have electronics and are thus worthless with electronic EF lenses

Edited by aapo lettinen
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5 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

bmpcc speed booster probably does not work with the GH series.

If you want electronic lens operation, the speed booster does not work. The only electronic lenses that work on the Panasonic are their own branded glass, which is why I said earlier it's a huge problem with the GH5 if you want ANY electronic glass. If you want a speed booster for the optical benefits, it works fine. 

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Alright, I think I can slow down on the anxiety now. First of all, I need to stop thinking of my EF lenses as a sunk cost, because, if my long term goal is to purchase a Canon C200, they won't go to waste. Second, Jared Polin always says that the rule of thumb is a maximum of five lenses per camera body. So there's no real need to build a collection of 10-20 lenses for whatever I choose.

The Nikon Z6 is still a winner in my book just from watching the footage online. The Sony stuff, I think, goes through a grueling process in order to be usable. Armando Ferreira dropped the A7III for the Canon EOS R in order to better match his C200.  Potato Jet...well, he seems to get every camera there is, anyway.

The other objection to the Sony is the cost of decent lenses.  I watched the videos of that event Sony held and then the lenses used by the Youtubers that participated. The lenses were in the $2K range for similar specs that cost half that in other brands.

GH5s sounds good, that Leica 12-60mm seems okay to start with. But it's actually a depressing choice. Emotionally it's not appealing.

I feel more excited at the thought of the Nikon and the Canon.  But neither are in the financing list.

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Always listen to the other side of the story. And if you can't find it, still be open to the possibility it's out there somewhere ?

We are a biased lot us humans - especially the ones who claim they have none.

This is just a general comment - I'm not at all being critical of Tyler's opinion on the Nikon.

Edited by Jon O'Brien
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People also tend to be more biased the more they have watched videos and read other persons reviews about a camera model and the less they have actually used it by themselves. 

Another thing is that one cannot accurately compare cameras image quality and look based on the footage other people have shot. You need to know the shooting situations extremely well to be able to compare anything and that is very difficult to arrange without actually testing the camera personally with the kind of scenes you are actually going to shoot with it. 

That is why I didn't offer any Z6 raw material for you to evaluate...I have some here readily available but there is no point sending it because comparing cameras based on unknown footage is absolutely pointless and would not help you in any way. These are highly subjective things which need to be evaluated personally just like comparing lenses based on the "look and mood they create"

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I thought I would post here that I've decided on the Canon EOS R in case anyone is going through the same process as me.

Price is better ($1600 on eBay), C-LOG at no additional cost, 4K 10 bit 4.2.2 out over HDMI, EVF, Focus peaking, flippy screen (ever tried shooting low/up high without one?), fully customisable controls, control ring, EF lens adapter (I'll set that touchbar to ISO), Digital IS (good for vlogs or basic and relatively “smooth” to begin with handheld stuff), etc.

But mostly because I will eventually buy the C200 and that's the best B-cam choice. Right, @Tyler Purcell? I mean I know you don't love them but you'll agree they match?

Edited by Samuel Berger
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Okay, so I think that, if you want a "HATERS BACK OFF!" look you can get it with the A7III. If you want a Japanese TV Drama look you can get the X-T3. If you want cinematic you can use the C-Log in the EOS R. The Z6 is kind of unique in that it comes oversharpened out of the box but I think it's pretty versatile.

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I mean maybe? Remember, the still camera doesn't have the color science of the cinema camera. There is a reason why canon makes cinema cameras and them like Sony, have a line drawn in the sand to separate the functions/features of a $2000 camera from a $8000 camera. So would they match? I shot a documentary with 2 5DMKII's and 1 7D and none of the 3 cameras got close to matching. So the first question is; would 2 of the same EOS-R's match? My guess is no. 

The EOS-R spec sheet is very long, but there is no mention of 10 bit or 4:2:2 anywhere. I did see it's only .h264 recording, so that's 8 bit 4:2:0 native. However, in terms of the HDMI output, very few cameras actually have true 10 bit 4:2:2 outputs. Also, with a limited budget, getting an external recorder does seem counter intuitive. 

Seems to me the EOS-R is a direct competitor to the A7S/R. It has a wide ISO range (single ISO BTW), it's a full-frame imager, it's a mirrorless design, it's lightweight, records :yawns: .h264 and did I mention seems to check off nearly all the Sony spec's one by one. The only reason why this camera doesn't record .h265 i frame 10 bit 4:2:2 is because their higher end camera does. They don't want it to compete, so they purposely limit it's capabilities. This is what frustrates me about the Japanese manufacturers, they have so many overlapping products in their lineups, they have to upsell you to get the functions you really NEED. 

I guess the good side in all of this is that you can invest in Canon glass and get the decent functionality of it when it works. We did a feature not long ago with the C300MKII using Canon glass and it looked very nice. It's just, good luck doing a focus pull/rack. None of their still glass can do that sadly, it's all electronic these days and you can't do repeatable focus moves. Plus, the most of zoom lenses are not parfocal. So you can't zoom in, focus and zoom out to retain focus. Canon does make parfocal zoom's, but they are the higher end one's which cost more then the camera body. This would be the same issue with pretty much all still zooms as well. The cost to make a lens parfocal isn't worth it for the stills market. Maybe you should invest in a used set of canon mount primes. I have a set of Rokinon DS lenses for my pocket camera and the 25, 35, 50 and 85 are very nice lenses for the price. Getting a good wide angle will be hard though, nearly all of the sub 18mm lenses are junk in that price range. If ya need help with lens selection, just hit me up and we can chat about it before ya buy something. It's really the biggest weakness in the Canon mount system in my opinion. Which is why I still favor M4/3rd's, because you're not stuck with ANY singular system. Smaller imager yes, but ease of use MUCH better. 

Anyway, glad ya got something and I hope we can see some images you shoot with it soon! ? 

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On 3/28/2019 at 12:25 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

Anyway, glad ya got something and I hope we can see some images you shoot with it soon! ? 

Thank you! I just got the financing approved and I'm sooo excited! It will be here on Monday along with the kit lens, a Canon RF 24-105mm f4. The only drawback is that if I buy through financing like I did, I don't get the free EF adapter but that's only $99.

I couldn't believe my eyes when it got added to the financing list. I'm glad I didn't end up having to settle for a Sony A7III because...well you can't get usable images from a Sony.

Now I need an Atomos Ninja V, unless you have a better suggestion. I'm also in need of suggestions for a gimbal for it since there's no GH5-style IBIS. @Tyler Purcell@aapo lettinen

Edited by Samuel Berger
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Congrats for the new camera Samuel! I'm sure it will work very well for your purposes. 

I'm a little sceptic though how practical the C200 update would be if it takes about 2 years to get the money, there will be much better alternatives then. but probably you can find one from the used market for good price :) 

 

For us the biggest advantage of the Z6 +atomos combo is the ability to choose the lenses more freely when shooting in low light. For example I just shot some doc material yesterday in a small WW2 bunker where the only light sources were a tiny streak of sunlight coming from a blocked opening in the wall and a little bit of ambience skylight coming from a 10" hole in the ceiling. You can see your way around when your eyes adjust to the darkness... for the camera to get a visually similar view of the scene I boosted it to 12800 ISO with 1/40 shutter speed and still got a decent image for our purposes. The difference to a normal camera was, I was using the kit 24-70 F4 zoom lens the whole time! 

with most other cameras one would probably choose a F1.4 prime and would had the additional disadvantage of very shallow DOF which would make shooting even more complicated. The Z6 +atomos+zoom lens was much faster to work with in that setup (or almost any setup if comparing the practicality of a zoom to a special purpose high speed prime lens) 

so it is not that it would not be possible to shoot similar scene with for example the FS7 but it would be highly unpractical for our needs when comparing to the Z6 setup which is maybe 5 times faster to work with because of the lenses when shooting that kind of scene. For other purposes like daytime shooting or high contrast scene I would take the FS7 or other higher dynamic range camera any time. 

That's why I called the Z6 a 'special purpose camera' , it is excellent for certain type of low light scenes but it is not suitable for all types of shooting and it is not, by my opinion, very practical for daylight high contrast shooting. In low light one can, on the other hand, capture some absolutely magical images with this type of cameras so they are a great addition in the toolbox as long as you have possibility to use other cameras for the very high contrast scenes

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the Ninja V is quite handy for a onboard recorder. You will want to have couple of extra NP-F batteries with it at all times, it is pretty power hungry because you will use it as a monitor as well (for example the cheaper style NP-F960 or 970 batteries. the cheapest ones would work but something with decent quality cells like Dynacore is great ) 

you can purchase one 500GB ssd first and then decide later how much extra storage you actually need. Normal 2.5" ssds can be used in the plastic "caddy" and there is also the special purpose Sony and Angelbird drives which are already externally the right size to fit to the Ninja without a caddy. Remember though that these special drives don't fit to normal SATA hdd docks and you need the proprietary atomos dock to read them on computer whereas with normal sata ssd you could remove it from the plastic caddy and attach it to a normal dock to read the files. Not a problem at all and easy to do but just something to remember when planning your workflow :)

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