Jump to content
Luigi Castellitto

Angenieux on Quarz DS8

Recommended Posts

I would like to use an Angenieux 1:1.9 8/64 mm , that I used on a Pathé Webo DS8 BTL, on a Soviet Quarz DS8. I don't know which exact model, but I think that the models with zoom (with a kind of Meteor), have the same attachment of the Angenieux.
Would I have problems?
Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to this source:

http://www.film.project-consultant.net/html/quarz___zenith.html

there is a fixed prime behind the mount, so the Meteor zoom is sort of an adapter lens. A normal zoom wouldn't work. 

The earlier Quarz DS8-M had a similar fixed prime with a screw mount that took wide and telephoto adapter lenses, and I think the later model DS8-3 has a fixed zoom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you. :)
And so... nothing, I give up the idea.

But what do you think is the best DS8 camera? Canon DS8 or one of Pathé is first answer, but the answer is not so obvious, they both have flaws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Luigi Castellitto said:

But what do you think is the best DS8 camera? Canon DS8 or one of Pathé is first answer, but the answer is not so obvious, they both have flaws.

It may NOT be that obvious 🙂 I have three Quartz DS-3's (in addition to my newly-acquired Canon DS8 and two copies of Pathe) and all three Soviet cameras shoot excellent footage. The image is stable and, in my tests,  didn't exhibit major problems. 

 

Note that, so far, I've only shot Fomapan R100 with them and not, say, color material. With the latter, they MAY have problems. Why the remark? Back in the eighties, my Kodak Brownie Movie Camera didn't have any problems with B/W ORWO film (I tend to use ORWO because of its very low price compared to, say, AgfaChrome or Kodak), while the image was seriously jumpy with color footage. I had to increase pressure on the film gate to fix the latter - by just putting some paper behind it. And the opposite was true of my Quarz-5 Std8 camera: it had problems with the B/W film (easily fixable by the same method) without additional pressure, while it worked just fine with color film. This is why the above doesn't guarantee I wouldn't have problems with color film in these three cameras.

 

The lens is reasonably sharp albeit, at least compared to high-quality primes coming with the Leicina 8S, not very contrasty. Feel free to compare my Leicina 8S footage to that of my three Quarz DS-3's to see the difference: 

DS-3another DS-3

Leicina

(Please read the descriptions of each scan for more info on the four Leicina lens used etc.)

 

Another problem of the DS-3 that its lens "only" starts at 9mm, while the Canon starts at 7.5 and you can get the C-mount 5.5 or 6-80/6-90 for the Pathe for even wider wide end.

 

BTW, it's WAAAY lighter than any of the two other cameras - that's also an advantage.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for posting the videos, Ruotsalainen, I must say that the results with DS8 are in my taste. Absolutely good.
The soviets DS8 (and 2x8) are light, easy to handle, they offer good performance due to their low cost. I have a Quarz 2x8 and about definition (it has the automatic focus) it has nothing to envy to more famous cameras. The gate is not very stable, not comparable with that of a H8 Rex4 that I have, but sufficient for both color films and b/w.
Instead I've always been quite satisfied with Pathé, even though, as we said, it has some weak side. Now it's damaged ...
By the way, since you have two, would you sell one? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Luigi Castellitto said:

By the way, since you have two, would you sell one? 🙂

I don't think so - but ebay.fr tends to have several of them for quite cheap. (I've purchased both my Webos over a little more than a month ago for around 120eur/body + posting fee.)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, I took it there too, at about that price.
Now the prism pellicle has been damaged for second time. Repairing it would cost me as much as a good used camera...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the same time I'll try to combine it with the soviet camera, which is also more portable.
What Pathé do you have, Werner? There are various models, BTL - Model I, Model II, BTL PR...
How would you rate Pathé compared to Canon?
And, remaining on the topic, do you also have an Angenieux on the Pathé?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Luigi Castellitto said:

What Pathé do you have, Werner? There are various models, BTL - Model I, Model II, BTL PR...
 

Two BTL's.

4 hours ago, Luigi Castellitto said:


How would you rate Pathé compared to Canon?
 

No real-world experience yet as all three cameras are very recent arrivals and I've only shot with the Canon. Nevertheless, electric motors do have their downsides. You can very easily run into battery problems if you stay more than, say, 30 minutes in 0 degree Celsius in strong wind and use NiMH batteries. This is why I've experienced camera slowdown with the Canon during shooting my latest film here in Finland: 

Edited by Ruotsalainen Werner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Luigi Castellitto said:

And, remaining on the topic, do you also have an Angenieux on the Pathé?

One of the BTL's came with the 8-64 in excellent condition. (This "kit" cost me 250 eur + shipping off eBay.fr with the original manuals and camera case). I've also ordered a Beaulieu 5008 S with the Angénieux 1:1,2 6-80 mm (for 330 euros; the camera needs re-celling but I don't plan to use it as I'm entirely DS8), from which I plan to remove the, on the BTL or other C-mount cameras, useless zoom / aperture tubes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I read about someone who was not happy with Canon's lens, others were satisfied.
Battery defects are often not mentioned, at extreme temperatures winding is a boon.
However, it's a very good camera, ergonomically and easy to load.

 

Returning to the Angeniuex: I had bought Pathé with the classic Angeniuex zoom 8-64mm f1.9 type 8x8 B, in very good condition, but in an accident the lens broke and I had to throw it away. I replaced it with an almost identical, same model, but different only because it came from a Beaulieu and it had just the "tube" (that you say) of the motorized iris, which I had to remove. I must say that it's not easy, the motor inevitably splinters the outside of the lens, fortunately only in the gear for motor part. I saw photos on ebay by Angeniuex with the tubes removed and they all had the same chipping.
Fortunately, mine didn't even have to disassemble also the zoom motor, probably because it came from a Beaulieu 2008 that didn't have this feature. It doesn't even have the motor zoom gear in sight, motorized use was not really foreseen for this model. It has the writing "Super 8" at the base, another thing typical of lens that come from the Beaulieu.
Another thing I noticed in this lens is that the zoom plastic coverage with numbers is not very solid. In both cases of my two lens it had moved slightly and I had to reposition it. Obviously only the external plastic with numbers, the mechanism is fluid.
Does your have these features?

The lens is excellent, mine not have fungus, dust, etc., works better in half diaphragm, but the images are sharp, I found them similar to those obtained in Super 8 with my Beaulieu 4008 ZMII.

Edited by Luigi Castellitto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Luigi Castellitto said:

I read about someone who was not happy with Canon's lens, others were satisfied.

Yup, I've read independent reports of it not being the sharpest etc. The list at http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001758 lists the lens belonging to around position 50% of the  lens list. That is, it's definitely not the best.

 

I've just made some test shots on my Canon DS8 at three different focal lengths (7.5, 15 and 60mm) and different apertures (f1.4, f2.8 and around f.6.4). The setup is at https://www.flickr.com/photos/33448355@N07/albums/72157707821987404

I'll send the film to develop in a week and get it back in about 1.5 months; then, I'll report my findings and comparison with at least the 8-64 (and hopefully also the 6-80), which I also plan to test in exactly the same manner on one of by BLT's.

 

 

Edited by Ruotsalainen Werner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Werne, monitor of pc couldn't it be a bad way to test a lens? It illuminates with its own light, and has pixels. Isn't better a printed sheet?


Here is an example of damage caused by the "tubes" of motors removed from the Angeniueux. Of course, in this case, the user seems to have removed the motors with a grenade! Good for buyers, they pay little (the mechanics are not compromised) for a lens worth at least 200 euros.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Angenieux-ZOOM-Type-8x8-B-8-64mm-C-mount-for-Super-8-movie-cameras/223456876184?hash=item3407115698:g:JRwAAOSwIxVclFSi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Luigi Castellitto said:

Werne, monitor of pc couldn't it be a bad way to test a lens? It illuminates with its own light, and has pixels. Isn't better a printed sheet?
 

It's a printed A/4 paper - I've used a (tilted) monitor to keep the paper straight.

BTW, I've just spent some hours setting up my Webos. Turns both of my cameras have problems: the first

- doesn't have a removable battery door (it was replaced by some kind of a manually created, non-removable cover) and, what is worse, it's also missing the spring-loaded quick exposure measurement en/disabler switch. That is, even if I could insert a battery in there, I couldn't (easily) make the exposure measurement work when I wanted to.

- doesn't have a loop former latch (important when loading a film) - it's just missing

In the second one, the shooting mode dialer doesn't turn at all - it's fixed at I. And when I wind up the spring, the camera shoots until it's completely unwound. That is, it's entirely useless.

But at least I'm lucky that

 

1, the exposure measurement stuff is built entirely (along with the battery) into the cover - I could just swap the cover and use that of the second camera on the first one

2, the loop former latch, fortunately, only closes the loopers but doesn't do anything else. We don't really need it if we just "pinch" the loopers upon loading a film. I successfully loaded a film this way. (And when I didn't succeed, I could just rewind and, then, retry.)

BTW, the camera at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKSfa0dXX-o is completely devoid of the additional black "house" on top of the main threading "wheel". Then, of course, the initial loading must be done by hand.

 

Edited by Ruotsalainen Werner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And another remark: I've purchased the MR50 Adapter and 357 silver oxide cell kit from  The Small Battery Company ( http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_mr50_adapter.htm ). I've measured the voltage drop when the Webo camera does use the battery. Turns out the voltage only drops by 0.001V - with my adapter + battery combo, currently from 1.592V to 1.591V. That is, the adapter may be completely useless in this very model.

 

I'll make some exposure comparison to find out whether the higher battery voltage results in wrong measure values. Fortunately if that's the case, it can be very easily fixed by just dialing another film speed into the exposure meter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll answer you right away on the adapter, which I bought from Small Battery: I shot at least 4 films with it, b / w and color, and the exposure was perfect! I can't tell you about the precise tension, but these tests have always made me lean towards his goodness. Then, certainly also depends on the state of the cell...
I hope the other Pathé Webo DS8 that I'll buy has it working, otherwise I too could replace all the camera cover, it's a good idea. But I don't know of a possible incompatibility between the BTL model I (which I have) or the different ones, which have the opening for external magazines, the pin for the motor, etc.
Look on Super8data for the differences.

You'll not believe it, but I also have a black artigianal cardboard battery door, instead of the original! Maybe original broke a lot!
And mine also has "fixed" the activator of light meter and therefore always active. Of course, I don't know how comfortable that kind of activation could be, pushing with the forehead.

I did not understand what piece of the loop you are missing, but, since manual loading is also provided in the camera, does it give any problems?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Luigi Castellitto said:

I did not understand what piece of the loop you are missing

The one shown (and annotated) in the shot at https://www.flickr.com/photos/33448355@N07/32546788317/in/album-72157707857275244/ . Note that I also annotated the two loop formers in this default (non-loading; that is, the latch is not extended) state.

Here's a shot of the latch manually pulled out, which makes the loop formers "close": https://www.flickr.com/photos/33448355@N07/32546789387/in/album-72157707857275244/

 

And here's my other BTL camera, where there's no latch at all (one of the previous owners must have broken it entirely?): 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/33448355@N07/40522730703/in/album-72157707857275244/

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/27/2019 at 4:04 AM, Luigi Castellitto said:

I must say that it's not easy, the motor inevitably splinters the outside of the lens, fortunately only in the gear for motor part. I saw photos on ebay by Angeniuex with the tubes removed and they all had the same chipping.
Fortunately, mine didn't even have to disassemble also the zoom motor, probably because it came from a Beaulieu 2008 that didn't have this feature. It doesn't even have the motor zoom gear in sight, motorized use was not really foreseen for this model. It has the writing "Super 8" at the base, another thing typical of lens that come from the Beaulieu.

Yup, it seems I'll need to do the same to my 6-80 as it can't be directly used on the Pathe, the latter having the same problem as most digital cameras with C-mount adapters, except for the Pentax Q and the Samsung NX Mini: the mount is in a "valley" (which I also show in the photo at https://www.flickr.com/photos/33448355@N07/40522730303/in/album-72157707857275244/It will surely have no problems on the adapter-able Pentax Q. The shot at https://www.flickr.com/photos/33448355@N07/32546788817/in/album-72157707857275244/ shows the same 6-80 with the Pentax Q C-mount adapter. I'll test the lens with my Q7 soon and post some results (also see my posts on the 8-64 at http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012788 if interested).

BTW, I have received a lot of additional printed materials for the 5008S (all in German); will scan them. (Currently, on the Web, I could only find the small-format English manual but nothing else.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/27/2019 at 11:24 PM, Luigi Castellitto said:

Here is an example of damage caused by the "tubes" of motors removed from the Angeniueux. Of course, in this case, the user seems to have removed the motors with a grenade! Good for buyers, they pay little (the mechanics are not compromised) for a lens worth at least 200 euros.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Angenieux-ZOOM-Type-8x8-B-8-64mm-C-mount-for-Super-8-movie-cameras/223456876184?hash=item3407115698:g:JRwAAOSwIxVclFSi

Well, I was pretty lucky with my copy of the 6-80: unscrewing the four screws was sufficient. Then, I could really easily remove (it immediately became "loose") the Reglomatic tubes.

I've shot a video of the entire process: https://youtu.be/rdWz2QPk8_U

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Started shooting with my Webo yesterday (currently, a 10m test roll - rethreaded on a 30m wheel - only); currently, only with the 8-64. Albeit the 6-80 seems to work on the Webo just fine too - it's just so much bigger and heavier. Nevertheless, there's no "looseness" and the Webo seems to be able to cope with the weight of the lens. (BTW, here are my "making of" videos showing the process of filming, in chronological order: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JeBaj0TM40https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PeTew266Ihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myuYw6j9DlM).

The camera's viewfinder is an absolute disgrace compared to all other 8mm cameras I've ever shot: it produces an image in only one position. If your eye is repositioned just a little bit, the image is gone. How lame this is...

 

 

Edited by Ruotsalainen Werner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/24/2019 at 8:07 PM, Luigi Castellitto said:

I would like to use an Angenieux 1:1.9 8/64 mm , that I used on a Pathé Webo DS8 BTL, on a Soviet Quarz DS8. I don't know which exact model, but I think that the models with zoom (with a kind of Meteor), have the same attachment of the Angenieux.
Would I have problems?
Thank you.

Hi, as already mentioned, the latter version of the QUARZ DS8 has a fixed zoom lens, although the previous versions are removable, and of the same type design as their Super 8mm cartridge version.  Since the prime 15mm lens block is in the camera body as is the aperture, you'd have to do a partial disassembly of the camera body to remove this lens block.  You could also remove the aperture vane if you wanted to since it will be of no further use without the fixed 15mm prime lens in the body. Or just leave it at the open F/1.8 position if leaving it in, just in case you want to put the prime lens back into the camera body.  This is a somewhat involved operation but is not impossible.  You'll have to check the Angeniuex lens calibration for focus to the body, but in theory and from my own examination of the several cameras, it should be doable.   I have thought of doing this for the Super 8mm cartridge version.  But in the end, after shooting with the Meteor lens on all 3 versions (Double 8mm, Double Super 8mm, Super 8mm), that lens does give good results and the images are sharp and useful....so I just left it the way it is. But I see the point, it would be nice to be able to attach various other lenses, bellows, telescopes or super telephoto lenses.

  I like the mechanical body without the need of battery power.  However, for simplicity sake and to have other nice features (variable shutter and a variety of running speeds), it's just easier to buy a decent working BEAULIEU Super 8mm camera to have the lens interchangeability feature.  Good luck on your projects!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

BTW, the DS-3 (or, for that matter, any small/light 10meter/30feet-only "Double" camera) has a huge advantage that you can always take them with you, should you want to shoot not planned stuff you just run into. This is what I do with one of my DS-3's, loaded with Foma 100, in my backpack even when I bike to/from work. 

 

That's not possible with 30m/100f cameras like the DS8 because of their sheer size / weight.

Edited by Ruotsalainen Werner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fortunately, the lens was easily removed from the "tube". Perhaps it's the 8-64 that is the most problematic.

Then how did you solve with the loop formers? Did you remove them andt use manual loading?

Could you photograph your two DS8 BTLs?

Of course, the Pathés are very heavy, and fragile, difficult to carry in a backpack.
However, I also use the 10-meter Fomapan on them, rewinding it in the Pathé 30-meter spools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

@Martin: Thanks for your suggestions,
I believe that, in the end, I'll keep  the Meteor lens.
I am also satisfied with the Meteor series (also of the K3), are lens that give good results.

I already have a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII, and the change lens feature is excellent. I wanted to do it also in DS8, but, at this point, it's better to do it with Pathé Webo.

Edited by Luigi Castellitto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Serious Gear



    CineLab



    Rig Wheels Passport



    Gamma Ray Digital Inc



    Ritter Battery



    Broadcast Solutions Inc



    Visual Products



    Glidecam



    Abel Cine



    New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment



    Wooden Camera



    Metropolis Post



    Tai Audio



    Paralinx LLC



    Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS


×
×
  • Create New...