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panagiotis agapitou

Is it really cheaper to shoot in digital ?

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On 4/25/2019 at 1:08 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

With tiny budgets, you shoot with an iphone, that's what Steven Soderbergh is doing. 

I've built A LOT of non-union low-cost budgets, many of them actuated and honestly, film ALWAYS costs more than digital, period. The numbers range from $25k - $90k more depending on what film format you're using. Tacking on another $100k to your budget when your entire budget is $250k, is not possible. Tacking on another $100k to your budget, when your entire budget is $5M is way more possible. 

It all comes down to how much money you're willing to spend. 

Tyler sums this up pretty well here 🙂

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17 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

Sure what the hell does Roger Deakins know about film and Digital .. best ignored by experienced directors ..

Roger has special reasons why he does not like film. He is a perfectionist and shooting film gives him a lot of stress because he's worried if the dalies will look good. So the moment Arri (his camera company of choice) had a camera that worked, he switched and will not look back. If you hear him talk about film, his issues are MOSTLY his own issues, rather than a systemic issue. Considering nobody else has the issues he has with film stock and processing, it's clear he's just upset with his own issues. 

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2 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Roger has special reasons why he does not like film. He is a perfectionist and shooting film gives him a lot of stress because he's worried if the dalies will look good. So the moment Arri (his camera company of choice) had a camera that worked, he switched and will not look back. If you hear him talk about film, his issues are MOSTLY his own issues, rather than a systemic issue. Considering nobody else has the issues he has with film stock and processing, it's clear he's just upset with his own issues. 

❤️

No pain .. no gain (and no grane) 

😉

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4 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Roger has special reasons why he does not like film. He is a perfectionist and shooting film gives him a lot of stress because he's worried if the dalies will look good. So the moment Arri (his camera company of choice) had a camera that worked, he switched and will not look back. If you hear him talk about film, his issues are MOSTLY his own issues, rather than a systemic issue. Considering nobody else has the issues he has with film stock and processing, it's clear he's just upset with his own issues. 

He still shoots film though.. point is wether he likes one more than the other.. (not sure Ive ever read him say so?).. his knowledge base is massive..and for a totally unknown director to diss him, is nothing short of idiotic ..  

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59 minutes ago, Robin R Probyn said:

He still shoots film though.. point is wether he likes one more than the other.. (not sure Ive ever read him say so?).. his knowledge base is massive..and for a totally unknown director to diss him, is nothing short of idiotic ..  

Deakins said that Alexa's is equal to film 

That's his personal taste/opinion which is complitelly different than mine !! 

On that base i do not pay much attention on a man that has a different view/taste than mine !! 

That's all !! I did not said anything abou his knowledge !!! Be carrefoul on reading posts 

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3 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

He still shoots film though.. point is wether he likes one more than the other.. (not sure Ive ever read him say so?).. his knowledge base is massive..and for a totally unknown director to diss him, is nothing short of idiotic ..  

Not really. He bitched and moaned about shooting "Hail Caesar" on 35mm, but that was a while ago. The Coen's probably will never use him again considering how much he hates film and they love it for their feature productions. 

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8 hours ago, panagiotis agapitou said:

Be carrefoul on reading posts 

Then be careful with your English usage (and spelling).

When you say that you "do not pay much attention" to the opinions of and Oscar- and BAFTA- winning DP, in a professional cinematography forum, it does at least suggest that you prefer your own. Which, considering your respective reputations, does not reflect well on you.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, panagiotis agapitou said:

Deakins said that Alexa's is equal to film 

That's his personal taste/opinion which is complitelly different than mine !! 

On that base i do not pay much attention on a man that has a different view/taste than mine !! 

That's all !! I did not said anything abou his knowledge !!! Be carrefoul on reading posts 

be careful making posts that do you no favors ..  

Edited by Robin R Probyn

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mark Dunn said:

Then be careful with your English usage (and spelling).

When you say that you "do not pay much attention" to the opinions of and Oscar- and BAFTA- winning DP, in a professional cinematography forum, it does at least suggest that you prefer your own. Which, considering your respective reputations, does not reflect well on you.

I talked about his statment that the new stocks are not as good as the new ones ... And i said that as he finds alexa equal to film (which i totally disagree) then i do not pay much attention TO THIS STATEMENT !! 

I think i made myself pretty clear !!!

Edited by panagiotis agapitou

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Mark Dunn said:

Indeed.

There's a saying here.

When you're in a hole, stop digging.

End of discussion !! More sayings of both of you would be consider as a personal attack ... so end of discussion !!

Edited by panagiotis agapitou

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I still wonder occasionally if there will be an eventual return of the film projector in a lot of cinemas. You know, not to replace digital projection (which in my opinion is fine for showing film-shot movies on), but to provide a bit of variety for that section of humanity that cares to see films shown on, er, film.

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Lets hope that in 30 years the promotion departments deside to promote a ''retro-analogue'' fashion ... as they did with Vynil 

I think this is the only chance

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10 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

I still wonder occasionally if there will be an eventual return of the film projector in a lot of cinemas. You know, not to replace digital projection (which in my opinion is fine for showing film-shot movies on), but to provide a bit of variety for that section of humanity that cares to see films shown on, er, film.

Lets hope that in 30 years the promotion departments deside to promote a ''retro-analogue'' fashion ... as they did with Vynil 

I think this is the only chance

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You know those tiny little pre-fab garden sheds, designed to keep a mower in, some tools, and maybe a small workbench underneath the window for a guy to get away from the house for a bit and while away some time on a project/hobby? I will never forget the day I arrived at the end of a long and bumpy dirt track out in the countryside, and there in one of these tiny sheds were two enormous Victoria 8 35mm/70mm film projectors, patiently waiting for their chance to rattle into life once more ...

They were shown to me by an aging projectionist, quite famous in the area.

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3 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

You know those tiny little pre-fab garden sheds, designed to keep a mower in, some tools, and maybe a small workbench underneath the window for a guy to get away from the house for a bit and while away some time on a project/hobby? I will never forget the day I arrived at the end of a long and bumpy dirt track out in the countryside, and there in one of these tiny sheds were two enormous Victoria 8 35mm/70mm film projectors, patiently waiting for their chance to rattle into life once more ...

They were shown to me by an aging projectionist, quite famous in the area.

Wish i had a 35mm projector in my home and the prints of my top 3-4 movies !! 

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8 hours ago, panagiotis agapitou said:

Lets hope that in 30 years the promotion departments deside to promote a ''retro-analogue'' fashion ... as they did with Vynil 

I think this is the only chance

But let's make it 3 years 🙂

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10 hours ago, panagiotis agapitou said:

Wish i had a 35mm projector in my home and the prints of my top 3-4 movies !! 

Got the projector, even got a 35mm flatbed. Sadly, finding a decent print to watch is very difficult. Most of the ebay prints are garbage. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, panagiotis agapitou said:

Lets hope that in 30 years the promotion departments deside to promote a ''retro-analogue'' fashion ... as they did with Vynil 

I think this is the only chance

But all you need to revive vinyl is the machinery, in Jon's shed.

A projector requires an entire set of manufacturing industries, from stock manufacture to engineering, behind it. Without the demand those industries are gone. It nearly happened to Kodak.

Edited by Mark Dunn

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I've said it before...

The people who are often most vocally in support of film are generally those who do not have to be in any way concerned over paying for it, or at the very least whose budgets easily accommodate it.

If you are working in circumstances where you don't have to own the gear, you have assistants to deal with all the gear, you are being treated as a valued client by a lab and transfer house who express through all your work and take great care over it, and you are working with them for weeks on end, that is a very easy set of circumstances under which to like film and advocate for film.

If it's all on you and your bank account, it's a lot less easy to like. The sad fact is that the second the budget becomes a concern, almost any production is probably better advised to spend that budget on production design, lighting, and time. Too many smaller-scale productions make huge sacrifices to afford film and end up with wonderful, high dynamic range, wide colour gamut images of nothing very special.

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1 hour ago, Phil Rhodes said:

If it's all on you and your bank account, it's a lot less easy to like. The sad fact is that the second the budget becomes a concern, almost any production is probably better advised to spend that budget on production design, lighting, and time. Too many smaller-scale productions make huge sacrifices to afford film and end up with wonderful, high dynamic range, wide colour gamut images of nothing very special.

 

Indeed you can see those films a mile of, where most of the budget has been run through the camera and every other corner is cut. Throw in a crazy low shooting ratio, poor lighting, miss matched short ends and a non-sync camera and you do have to ask the question if "the magic of film" is worth it. 

Personally I do love the look of film. But when I have my producing hat on I have to be a realist. I've never been able to make the budget work for film on any project I've produced. Sometimes its hard enough to scrape enough profit margin or make it doable on digital. Film is rarely doable. I have produced projects that technically could "afford" film origination. But it would have compromised the other departments far too much. Getting the production design, art dept and costume right on a narrative file can be quite expensive if you've got more then a couple of actors/locations - I'd rather spend the money on that as it has a bigger impact.

Sources of funding have got wise to the fact that digital is "cheaper" certainly in the UK. The film council short film fund that was £10k 15 years ago is now £5k. More and more filmmakers are competing for increasingly small pots. More production is happening, but at lower and lower rates. If your trying to make a living as a filmmaker, you need to be super efficient and its competitive.

Some art film funds (in the UK at least) have in the past stipulated digital origination, I guess they wanted the budget to be visible on screen then burn through the camera.

Sure I could use film on personal projects, but its harder to have spare money to spend on films (for reasons above) and I'm less and less keen to try and get people to work for free - so my DIY short films get more expensive (and less frequent) even when I'm shooting on cost effective digital formats.  

The other point that can't be ignored is digital is really good. I've been taking the black magic pocket 4k out on jobs and the footage looks great. 

Same with the discussion around 35mm projection. Unless you were in a major city with access to show prints (and viewing the film within 2 -3 days of opening). 35mm projection usually looks horrible - my local multiplex managed to get prints covered in diagonal platter scratches by second screening of opening day some times. Digital project is a step up

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2 hours ago, Phil Rhodes said:

I've said it before...

The people who are often most vocally in support of film are generally those who do not have to be in any way concerned over paying for it, or at the very least whose budgets easily accommodate it.

If you are working in circumstances where you don't have to own the gear, you have assistants to deal with all the gear, you are being treated as a valued client by a lab and transfer house who express through all your work and take great care over it, and you are working with them for weeks on end, that is a very easy set of circumstances under which to like film and advocate for film.

If it's all on you and your bank account, it's a lot less easy to like. The sad fact is that the second the budget becomes a concern, almost any production is probably better advised to spend that budget on production design, lighting, and time. Too many smaller-scale productions make huge sacrifices to afford film and end up with wonderful, high dynamic range, wide colour gamut images of nothing very special.

I'd disagree, sort of. 

I see many film devotes, at least in still photography, that do shitty work just to say they shoot film.  They don't end up with great technical images. Film does not do everything as good as digital does and vice versa.

If the budget allows, the best thing to do is to be true to the subject matter and pick the best medium that does justice to the project whether it be film or digital.

We had this same debate on and on in photo forums whether to shoot BW or color. If both are equally good, flip a coin. And if not, pick what serves best. 

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I mean let's face it, how many people here are funding their own feature film for theatrical release? 

:crickets: 

If you're out making short films for youtube, vimeo and social media, who really cares what ya shoot them with. 

If you're out making something that could be seen on a big screen, in a theater, that's a judgement on your skills as a filmmaker in front of your peers, then ya maybe you should think twice. Do you shoot with what everyone else shoots with or do you shoot in a way that looks and feels different.

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