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John Schlater II

I am considering a Super 8mm camera....

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OK, Beaulieu 4008 not the best camera imo for tripod work,horrible 1/87th shutter speed, probably more reliable and less parts to go wrong than 6008,7008 range of cameras. Beaulieu 6008/7008, wonderfull images via a correctly set up/collimated lens. My advice is if you buy a beaulieu get the lens checked out, make sure the lens is adjusted to the camera. Make sure there is no haze or dust on any of the elements within the lens. Camera slightly quieter than 814/1014xls cameras, sharper images when the lens is wide open compared to the canon. 7008s has the better ground glass focussing screen compared to the 6008s. Comparing the canon and beaulieu 7008, image stability is about the same, auto exposure is a bit slow with the beaulieu, beaulieu lens has a proper iris. Now always grab my leicina special first, beaulieu second and canon third. If you have the money then by a beaulieu 7008 avoiding the 7-56 ( chinon made lens) then have the camera serviced unless purchased with a warranty. A beaulieu is going to cost a lot more than the canon. I get better images with my beaulieu compared to my canon cameras and will always reach for the canon last. Think you'll find all the top cameras that were produced in later years were sound cameras, only the bauer c900xl from around 1982 which was a silent model springs to mind as an exception. Rewinding back to the beaulieu, wot i dont like is when you use the camera with a remote switch the camera is always in a kind of standby mode, draining the battery. The canon only drains the battery in the same mode whilst running or when lightly depressing the trigger release. So for a lot more money the beaulieu is going to give you slightly better image quality, 4fps,56fps, and interchangeable lenses.

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O.K. thanks rip...that's what I'm talking about...great user comments...

 

I guess I would like to have an 8mm not just to play with but at some point if it can "work" for me too...that would be good too.

 

I would really like to mix a little video and film together too...just to compare looks and such...

 

I like the Beaulieu because of the interchangeable lenses...that is a huge plus...what other kind of acessories are available for them? Is there a varity of lenses out there for it?

 

Are there any rack focuses available for any of these cameras?

 

Any body have a really bad experience with any cameras??? Any body have success with an off brand unpopular camera?

Edited by John Schlater II

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I got a little Beaulieu history lesson here...

 

 

http://lavender.fortunecity.com/lavender/569/beaulieu.html

 

...now I know why everyone likes it...its such a nice camera...

 

rip...I noticed you didn't mention the 5008...isn't it any good? Anybody?? Seems to be quite a few out there...

 

Chris...cool flick...really digin' that...did you do all MOS? I think you did but I gotta still ask...I liked the lighting in the shot of the main character when one side of his face is totally dark...really cool. I liked the grainy kitchen footage...very edgey and uncomfortable...perfect feel for watch someone eat a blended sandwhich surprise...did he really drink it??? :o

 

Did you shot a lot on sticks or did you free hand a lot of it? Have you used any other camera aside from the Canon?

 

Anybody else got any films they did with their cameras??

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bauer_s715xl_-_73514.jpg

 

Bauer anyone???

 

This one has:

Angenieux 1.4/6-90mm Macro-Multicoating

with ZOOM (2x power and manual)

Split image focusing

9, 18, 24, 40 fps and single frame

interval timer (6fps/1 sec. to 1fps/min.)

Backlight, Fader

Auto/Manual Exposure

Automatic lap dissolves

Connection for E-flash, remote control, mic., earphone...

 

or

 

bauer_s709xl_-_profi_set_-_31123.jpg

 

Has:

Features:

 

Bauer MACRO-Neovaron lens 1.2/6-51mm

with ZOOM (2x power and manual)

Split image focusing

9, 18, 24, 40 fps and single frame

interval timer (6fps/1 sec. to 1fps/min.)

Backlight, Fader

Auto/Manual Exposure

Automatic lap dissolves

Connection for E-flash, remote control, mic., earphone...

 

They look slick!

B)

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beaulieu 5008, the multispeed is the better option, image quality thru the 6-70 lens was stunning, again auto exp not as good as canon. Image stablility even thru my fully service one was not as good as the 4008,7008 and canon cameras. Also used the earlier 5008 with two running speeds, again image stability was not as good, i could of been just unlucky with either of the cameras or iffy cartridges. 5008 is a real solid camera. I found trying to pull focus at full zoom on both the 4008 and 5008 a bit difficult, the images tend to wobble due a large zoom lens ( 6-70 and 6-80 lens) being secured to the camera via the c-mount. A lens support would of been usefull. Pulling focus on the canon and leicina is no problem. Later cameras such as the 7008 use a larger mount, but also maintaining the c-mount. The 5008,7008 cameras feel like using say an R16. If you can find the two speed 5008 with 6-80 lens ( T-Stops instead of f-stops!!!!! on a super 8 camera.) in full working order, no muck on the inner elements of the lens with a warranty, consider it, that 6-80 angenieux lens is absolutely superb. Some say the best super 8 zoom ever made. Summing up, i like the solid feel of the 5008, felt like using a 16mm camera like an R16, reliability was good, image stability was good but not excellent, cannot remember the focussing screen, if it were awfull i would of remembered.

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Hello again, yes i once owned a bauer 715 aswell. Tended to under expose in auto mode, image stability excellent, well made camera, great images in good lite, very reliable, owned it for around 4 months before selling it for £20.00 ( i am too honest ). Think i got an ebay lemon, as in low lite it lost all sharpness, 99% sure the back focus was out. Seem to recall, due to the design of the handgrip the camera wouldn't sit on a sachtler 18p tripod head. Have messed with other bauers, 709 and c700xlm, all as reliable as the canon, lenses good but not as good as the canon and beaulieus. Sold them all in favour of previously mentioned cameras. Here's one to buy if you see one going cheap, a zeiss ikon moviflex ms8, super 8 camera with zeiss vario sonnar 9-36 f1.9 lens, 18 and 24fps, awfull manual exposure, a real point and shoot camera. But the image quality has to be seen to be believed, yes imo completely outstrips the canon 1014xls, sharp as a tack even wide open!!!!! Camera dates from around the late 60s early 70s.

Edited by k25rip

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Guest Christopher Heston
I got a little Beaulieu history lesson here...

http://lavender.fortunecity.com/lavender/569/beaulieu.html

 

...now I know why everyone likes it...its such a nice camera...

 

rip...I noticed you didn't mention the 5008...isn't it any good? Anybody?? Seems to be quite a few out there...

 

Chris...cool flick...really digin' that...did you do all MOS? I think you did but I gotta still ask...I liked the lighting in the shot of the main character when one side of his face is totally dark...really cool. I liked the grainy kitchen footage...very edgey and uncomfortable...perfect feel for watch someone eat a blended sandwhich surprise...did he really drink it??? :o

 

Did you shot a lot on sticks or did you free hand a lot of it? Have you used any other camera aside from the Canon?

 

Anybody else got any films they did with their cameras??

 

 

Thanks for the compliments. It's always nice to get a response like that. I figured I'd get an edgy look for the sandwich stuff if I lit it with cheap lights and I got the processing for the sandwich stuff at walmart.

 

As for the lighting of the character where one side of his face is black I lit the scene with two 650watt Arris. I used kodachrome for both the tv watching and the sandwich making. The sandwich making was with the canon 310xl and the other stuff is all with the 814xls (except for the close-ups - they were done with the 310xl).

 

I used a tripod for the majority of the shots.

 

Thank you so much for your comments - any suggestions?

 

-Chris

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Chris...the film was really cool.

 

The only thing I would suggest is that sometimes I like seeing crazy unsettling films with a slow push that you turn into a fast push......right to the eyes...and then have the character shift his eyes left to right a few times...that would've made it...

 

:lol:...I'm just kidding...it was all pretty good and I enjoyed it alot.

 

Have you ever shot with any other film cameras yet??? Just curious.

 

I like film so much...there's a warmth there that can't be duplicated...with all the different film stocks and different lighting arrangements...you can get it to look so many different ways. Video always just look the same...everything is in focus...with an ocassional "automatic focus" from time to time...or 30 shots from eye level...you know...what's wrong with the floor shot from time to time you??? Dang!! ;)

 

LOL...I could tell it wasn't video!!

 

Don't get me wrong...I like video....easy to use and cheap but...its still video...sure it can be taken a long way but film people don't really care about it...we don't realy care about how easy and cheap digital video is. We're commited to the art aren't we? The medium and the practice is all we are worried about.

 

Like all these TV shows nowaday...the so called reality shows...God I hate TV so much. That's what your film got me thinking about...why I got into this stuff...I don't want to sit in front of a TV...I want to make a film...with actors and blended sandwhichs...that's what I want to do...I don't want to make a video...I get so sick of video.

 

Even most documentaries suck. Look at Micheal Moore...his documentaries aren't even real documentaries and people take what he says as fact. When he first did "Roger and Me" that was probably the last time he did something close to a true doc. Since then he makes dumb video projects that merely say what he wants...then somebody gives him an award....great!!! Thanks Mike...news flash people!!! Same guy...different shell!!! I love some of his work but he's coming out with a new piece like every week now...like some lame boy band releasing new music every summer!

 

...I won't even start on reality TV...what a joke that is...some of it can be interesting but now we got these shows with washed up celebs trying to lose weight or live together...God...what is the world coming to??? We are so screwed if this is what is coming in our future...kill me now then...

 

;)

 

Sorry for the ramble...back to cameras...

Edited by John Schlater II

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Hi, everybody!

 

Great site! I joined this page because I needed some orientation about buying a Super 8 camera. Overall, the canons are the most finded newer ones around ebay. In fact I purchased one 514xls for about 30 bucks.

I really don't care about the sound, since there are no more sound cartridges, but I realized that the 514xl one (no sound) cannot film in 24fps. I also noticed that the bauers, beaulieus and and others have multiple speeds.

I will begin with this one I bought (at this time it's obvious that I am a newbie in film) and if it goes ok I will go for the 814 or the 1014. Please, if anybody wants to say something about this comment, I would really appreciate it.

 

Thanks to all

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it's a simpler design, more rugged. THe lens mount is a Leica M-mount, rangefinder. You can also adapt M39 lenses to fit to it as well.

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The 814XLS is a really good bet, but they don't come up as often as other canons. I have 2 that i've been work horsing for 2 years, and they are great. Its biggest advantages are the crisp optics, variable 220 shutter for low light, and very handy user friendly exposure controls. the 1014xls is basically just heavier and more expensive. the 1014E has other choices like 54fps slomo, variable narrow shutter, and the longest canon zoom 7-70mm.

 

Beaulieu uses Angenieux lenses, which seem a little crisper and more saturated than Canon.

 

I'm waiting for my first Nizo to arrive... no experiences with a Nizo yet, but for it i'm going for unique features like shutterless and time exposure timelapses, perfect for the new 64T. also has 54fps. be careful, some Nizo models shoot 25fps instread of 24. The 561 Macro seems like the best bang for the wistles in Nizo's.

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Guest santo
Why not start with a Canon and move on from there as your needs grow. The Canon is vey reliable, user friendly and delivers great pictures. It is without doubt the best camera for first time use.

 

The other cameras will require more money to purchase and maintain. Plus, they are not as easy to use the first time out.

 

If I were you, I would just get the Canon and be done with it. ;)

 

John, I would tend to agree with this and the recommendation of the 814 xls over the 1014.

 

But I would also have to add that remember that the Canon is a home movie camera designed for the prosumer of the day. Its zoom was designed in the 1970's and was created for mass production on a far larger scale than the much more expensive Angenieux and top Schnieder lenses such as the Optivaron. Not to mention that it has no hope against prime lenses. This means the Canon gets awful soft fast under f-stops below f4 compared to the best Schneider and Angenieux zooms, resulting in that soft focus look which mars so many people's super 8 efforts when shooting indoors and makes them look crappy. They make the mistake of forgetting it is only a 1970's Japanese home movie camera with a big zoom on it that they are using, and that just because the light meter is out of the red at f1.4 or f2 or even f2.8, their images should be sharp. They find later that they're sadly let down and wonder why everything's kind of blurry even though they know they focused properly and did everything right. Keep the f-stop up there preferably in the f5.6 zone or better and the images will be very nice.

 

So I recommend the Canon 814 xls as a terrific first camera with that reality-based warning -- then move up if you find you need a professional-design camera with an interchangeble lens mount on which you can use prime lenses or modern (excellent) zooms, manual ASA, and everything else, and want complete control over you image. You may not?

Edited by santo

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John, I would tend to agree with this and the recommendation of the 814 xls over the 1014.

 

But I would also have to add that remember that the Canon is a home movie camera designed for the prosumer of the day. Its zoom was designed in the 1970's and was created for mass production on a far larger scale than the much more expensive Angenieux and top Schnieder lenses such as the Optivaron. Not to mention that it has no hope against prime lenses. This means the Canon gets awful soft fast under f-stops below f4 compared to the best Schneider and Angenieux zooms, resulting in that soft focus look which mars so many people's super 8 efforts when shooting indoors and makes them look crappy. They make the mistake of forgetting it is only a 1970's Japanese home movie camera with a big zoom on it that they are using, and that just because the light meter is out of the red at f1.4 or f2 or even f2.8, their images should be sharp. They find later that they're sadly let down and wonder why everything's kind of blurry even though they know they focused properly and did everything right. Keep the f-stop up there preferably in the f5.6 zone or better and the images will be very nice.

 

So I recommend the Canon 814 xls as a terrific first camera with that reality-based warning -- then move up if you find you need a professional-design camera with an interchangeble lens mount on which you can use prime lenses or modern (excellent) zooms, manual ASA, and everything else, and want complete control over you image. You may not?

 

 

 

Santo your comments mirror my experiance exactly with with canon cameras going soft. My 814xls is awfull from F4-1.4. Though my late 1014xls was a little better but not much. The best zoom lens i have so far used wide open at f1.8 is the schneider 6-66, much, much better than the canon at 1.8.

Canon lenses do give a great image on a sunny day , but struggle when the subject is low in contrast.

That said about the canon lenses i too recommend the 814xls, purchased mine brand new in march 1985 and still going strong to this day.

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if you use fresh film (months) the canon lenses are thack sharp way below f1.4 and do not have any of the vignetting problems all schneider/angeneux lenses have - dark corners at wide apertures. actuallly those lenses ar every bad and the canons has a way superior performance. the schneiders are also vey unsharp at the edges. no such problems with the canons. wanna blow ur footage up to 35mm? then you get the real truth.

 

i have made a 200mb full formst "film for dummies" shot with k40 from about f4 and way below f1.4 proving that the 1014 it thack sharp way down but it is on the filmshooting server which is not yet avilable.

 

unlike santo i prove my stuff under foolpoof conditions.

 

s/hoot

Edited by S8 Booster

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Guest santo

I am glad to see you posting here, S8 Booster. I've been enjoying your manifestos and experiments on the free energy and anti-gravity machines you're building in your garage on the quackengineering.com webboard.

 

I actually would agree the Canon home movie zoom lenses are "thack sharp" way below f1.4. You'll get no arguement there. Tack sharp, no way. Remember when I posted my Canon 814 tests at the various f-stops? You know, the ones that ended up sending you packing on vacation from another webboard for a month or two after you were discredited? I felt badly about that for a few seconds, but it is important to put things in realistic perspective.

 

I'd love to see some of your super sharp footage. In the mean time, a quick reality check reveals that you have no idea what you're talking about. Here's some nice and sharp footage captured with a Schneider 6-66 at way up there in the big f-stop range, as well as with the Cinegon 10mm prime. I think even f1.8. Just follow this and watch some of the stuff here. I point your attention directly to the now famous shot of the kid in front of the microphone shot with the Optivaron:

 

Leicina Special Shot Music Video

 

It was discussed in this thread: http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/in...8903&hl=leicina

 

I'm in post on two projects with my Special and might put up some footage from it here somewhere. I look forward to yours, Booster. Unfortunately I won't be able to discuss it with you there on that other site.

 

if you use fresh film (months) the canon lenses are thack sharp way below f1.4 and do not have any of the vignetting problems all schneider/angeneux lenses have - dark corners at wide apertures. actuallly those lenses ar every bad and the canons has a way superior performance. the schneiders are also vey unsharp at the edges. no such problems with the canons. wanna blow ur footage up to 35mm? then you get the real truth.

 

i have made a 200mb full formst "film for dummies" shot with k40 from about f4 and way below f1.4 proving that the 1014 it thack sharp way down but it is on the filmshooting server which is not yet avilable.

 

unlike santo i prove my stuff under foolpoof conditions.

 

s/hoot

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Hi, seem to recall we've had this discussion on another site. Seem to recall booster images were of high contast, ALL my late 1014xls and current 814xls go soft in low contrast lite. I would not of sold the canon1014xls in favour of the special and 7008 if the canon lens performed better in low light.

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One thing i noticed with the leicina special and beaulieu cameras is that when the 85 wratten filter is swung out of the optical path, it is replace by another a clear wratten filter. I assume this keeps the back focus of the lens to the excact distance to the film plane. Other makes of camera do not seem to do this. Therefore is the back focus of other makes of camera a compromise. I was always been lead to believe that you can spot back focus problems when the lens is wide or nearly wide open and the lens is at its widest angle ( image goes soft). If other makes of camera do not replace one filter with another you have to ask yourself why does the leicina and beaulieu. Is this why the leicina performs better at 1.8 compared to other makes of camera??????

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Guest santo
One thing i noticed with the leicina special and beaulieu cameras is that when the 85 wratten filter is swung out of the optical path, it is replace by another a clear wratten filter. I assume this keeps the back focus of the lens to the excact distance to the film plane. Other makes of camera do not seem to do this. Therefore is the back focus of other makes of camera a compromise. I was always been lead to believe that you can spot back focus problems when the lens is wide or nearly wide open and the lens is at its widest angle ( image goes soft). If other makes of camera do not replace one filter with another you have to ask yourself why does the leicina and beaulieu. Is this why the leicina performs better at 1.8 compared to other makes of camera??????

 

It's an interesting point! Both of those cameras do indeed do that. But I don't know enough of the design on other lesser makes to be certain that some of them don't have a clear piece that swings into place. They aren't designed to be relatively easily opened and serviced like the professional design Beaulieus and Leicina are -- Canons and the like are more the "throw away when it's broke and the warranty is over" type -- and I haven't had a look.

 

The Leicina Special's secret to both superior image steadiness and wide aperture performance goes back to the one-of-a-kind narrow film gate which I and Sparky (Mark) did an extensive analysis on on the filmshooting.com site. It provides a narrower channel between the cart's pressure plate and the camera's film gate, pushing the film flat. In the new issue of SMALL FORMAT magazine there is a terrific article on the Beaulieus and Leicinas used for that fantastic 360 degree Stromboli art project, and also a short bit on the Leicinas and mention is made of the guy who came up with the Special's film gate. Here's a picture from the analysis we did on that other site about a year ago which pretty much sums up the secrets of the legend of the narrow film gate:

 

Leicina_Special_s_Secret_Revealed.jpg

 

You are right, k25rip, the back focus is crucial when shooting at wide apertures, and anything slight can throw it off. I had some brief discussions with the well-known Beaulieu expert Bjorn Andersson from Sweden and he made a good point that the wider the aperture, the more crucial the fine adjustment of lenses and camera. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember something like +/- .02mm was all that was permisable with a f1.8, while when you get to a superfast f1.2 like those awesome Angenieux 1.2 6-80/90 lenses, it's zero tolerance for all practical purposes. This is why if you get your Beaulieu properly serviced you can get terrific images at low light levels, too. Terrific lenses + correct back focus.

 

Keeping that in mind, you can see why the combination of the Special's gate keeping the film very flat, mixed with the clear filter when the 85 is not in use contributes to this. And as it's an M mount bayonet, there is no fine-tuning lens adjustment required like the C mount.

 

 

 

BTW, FANTASTIC rig, Lord Rover!

Edited by santo

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Keep in mind that the sharpness issue with regards to the Canon camera can be affected by whether or not one is using the 220 degree shutter option that the Canon offers.

 

Do the other, "sharper" cameras mentioned offer a 220 degree shutter option?

 

For any observation about the Canon being "soft" under F-4.0 to be valid would require testing the Canon when the 150 degree shutter option is being used, along with a tripod. Shooting the Canon at 220 degree shutter adds an element of uncertainty as to how soft the camera lens may be in lower light situations.

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Guest santo

Testing for sharpness only occurs with any validity when filming a test chart or at least a still-life with the camera firmly mounted stationary on a tripod. It makes absolutely no difference if the shutter is 150 or 220 degrees -- just like it makes no difference in sharpness if you shoot a still photograph at 1/60 or 1/250 of a still life or test chart with a mounted camera. I tested with still life and chart a Canon 814 e. Nice lens to shoot outdoors with, terrible plastic junk body and ugly design.

Edited by santo

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Guest uoliwils

I would also consider the zeiss ikon (s8 - ms8 - gs8). Not many features, but rugged and good lenses (zeiss). quite cheap also. Some people mentioned jitter problems, mine works perfectly (I've shot only a few k40 carts with it, though). You also need a remote control cable when exposing manually.

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I would also consider the zeiss ikon (s8 - ms8 - gs8). Not many features, but rugged and good lenses (zeiss). quite cheap also. Some people mentioned jitter problems, mine works perfectly (I've shot only a few k40 carts with it, though). You also need a remote control cable when exposing manually.

 

 

You lot are amazing, never fail to find something new every day.

My gripe with my GS8 was unable to manually expose, i always held the rotating iris wheel to lock the exposure. However, i have just tried the cable release and you can manually adjust the exposure. I suppose it would help if i was to read an instruction manual once in a while. Wonderfull piece of info, thanks for that 'uoliwils' .

I have mentioned before, it has an amazing 9-36 zeiss lens, blows the canons away. I assume it cannot read the 64t stock?

Andy

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Guest uoliwils
You lot are amazing, never fail to find something new every day.

My gripe with my GS8 was unable to manually expose, i always held the rotating iris wheel to lock the exposure. However, i have just tried the cable release and you can manually adjust the exposure. I suppose it would help if i was to read an instruction manual once in a while. Wonderfull piece of info, thanks for that 'uoliwils' .

I have mentioned before, it has an amazing 9-36 zeiss lens, blows the canons away. I assume it cannot read the 64t stock?

Andy

 

you're welcome ;) to be honest, all infos I got for this camera came from the people at filmshooting.com, I don't have the instruction manual too...

 

Regarding the 64t issue, I think the camera cannot read it properly, guess it will treat it as a k40 cart, overexposing 1/3 or so. I'm always using an external meter, though, and I didn't try this stock yet.

 

Are you sure it's a GS8? the lens should be a 6-70 if I remember correctly. (9-36 is a great lens too!)

david

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