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Max Field

Blackmagic's 6K camera has broken the game

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4 hours ago, Max Field said:

I feel like this just killed every RED Camera..... 

While it looks to be a really great price for what you get, you have to remember it's made by Blackmagic. They don't have a great track record as far as I'm concerned, and they've let me down more than once with buggy equipment. Also, it doesn't have basic professional features that I would expect in a camera. For one, it only outputs video with HDMI or USB, so no thanks. And while it records ProRes internally, it only records ProRes up to 4K.

If it does turn out to be a stable and reliable camera, I'm sure it will work out to be great for a lot of lower-budget stuff, but I'm not sure it's broken the game or that it killed every RED camera as you mentioned. I think it might be a little bit of a step up from something like a GH5s. Just my opinion.

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New bigger sensor, which is welcome. Not sure how they can call a 23x13mm sensor Super35 in size - it's nowhere near that. But hey, I'll take any sensor enlargement they got!

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14 hours ago, Mark Kenfield said:

No SDI and the EF mount unfortunately discount it from normal work. 😕

It's a $2500 camera, not a $25,000 camera. Name another $2500 camera that can output SDI in 4k. HDMI is perfectly acceptable with a 90 degree right angle adaptor that can be hard mounted to the camera body. 

EF to PL adaptors are $99 USD. Not a big deal. 

 

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The pocket 4K is really excellent and I've found the 5 bodies we have to be stable and reliable (so far) and this looks like a nice evolution, particularly the larger sensor.  6K might be a bit overkill for the kind of projects these cameras are used for.

But I like the sound of the 2.8K 120fps. I've found I use the HD/120fps on the current pocket a lot - and a bit more resolution would be helpful.

But you can see why red are moving away from affordable cameras, black magic look like they have got the area sewn up. 

Hopefully they have got a better handle on manufacturing this time round. The last 2 big purchases I made were really screwed up by slow delivery. In my case it was 13months for the 4K production cam and 9 months for the pocket 4K's. Thats the biggest issue if your ordering kit because you need it on a specific job. You can't trust BM to deliver when they say they will, their updates while waiting were either vague or untruthful. I wouldn't order it until its in stock. The pocket 4K is still pre-order only in the UK at CVP - not great. Might be 2+ years before these can be brought easily 

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31 minutes ago, Adam Frisch FSF said:

New bigger sensor, which is welcome. Not sure how they can call a 23x13mm sensor Super35 in size - it's nowhere near that. But hey, I'll take any sensor enlargement they got!

Yea it's NOT super 35mm, it's bigger than "academy" which is good enough honestly. It's 1.8mm shy of Super 35mm in width, so not horrible. 

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This camera is a game changer for many reasons, not just resolution, but also a "close to" 35mm sized imager and EF mount, two things that were not quite ready on the previous version. I really hope it will do 2.8k with my super 16mm lenses, that would be so hot if that worked. I was still going to buy a 4k version, but this new version really takes the cake. It also pulls Blackmagic's pants down on the URSA Mini Pro, because they will OBVIOUSLY be updating that very soon. My guess is with all the talk about 8k in the presentation,  the new UMP will be 8k with a FF imager. That's kind of what the rumors have been steering towards. Now that the pocket is 6k with a 35mm imager size, it's the next best move for the company in my guestimation. 

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1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

EF to PL adaptors are $99 USD. Not a big deal. 

EF to PL adaptors are not compatible with anything. 

or maybe one or two or three lens types but very limited lens options can be used and would be much more practical to just use the EF version of the same lens because most of the ones which can fit the adapter can be purchased and rented in EF mount as well or can be easily switched between PL and EF.

 

Anyway, if someone noticed there is some comparable models from Z-Cam which are in same price range and have some features the Pocket cameras are unable to do... like full remote control, more practical form factor, batteries lasting longer, full resolution 10-bit hdmi. Can be ordered in PL mount as well.

As I see it, the Blackmagic and Z-cam are now competing directly with each other and the Kinefinity cameras (being less bang for the buck even when the intermediate mount system is very very nice solution) are those who are going to suffer 

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When I call it a RED killer, I mean that the majority of people buying RED cameras aren't seasoned cinematographers. They're rich kids looking for a light gimbal compatible camera that can fill that 4K demand clients have. Most of them don't know what a light meter or setting exposure is, they just crank the ISO up and down.

Edited by Max Field

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5 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It's a $2500 camera, not a $25,000 camera. Name another $2500 camera that can output SDI in 4k. HDMI is perfectly acceptable with a 90 degree right angle adaptor that can be hard mounted to the camera body. 

EF to PL adaptors are $99 USD. Not a big deal. 

 

Doesn’t need 4k SDI.

And EF to PL adapters can mount a grand total of about four different lenses (99% won’t fit).

Look, I get it. It’s a cheap cheap camera for the masses. But for people working on conventional sets, this isn’t an A-Cam, it’s a C or D cam. The issue isn’t that it can’t be made to work with HDMI based accessories, or that you can’t get cinema lenses in EF mounts these days. It’s that you don’t have any of that stuff with you when you’re carrying normal cameras with you for your main cameras. 

You’d need to rent in additional HDMI wireless video units, HDMI-based EVFs and onboard monitors, and a completely separate set of EF-mount cinema glass, for the camera to slot in comfortably with what you’re already working with. My issue with the camera is that it doesn’t work in with any of the usual accessories we’d be carrying with us.

Can you acquire everything you need to make it work? Absolutely. But you’ve then left the realm of a $2,500 outlay FAR far behind. 

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4 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

EF to PL adaptors are not compatible with anything. 

AH yea, I've never owned an EF camera so there ya go! I use a PL mount on my M43rds mount. 

4 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

Anyway, if someone noticed there is some comparable models from Z-Cam which are in same price range and have some features the Pocket cameras are unable to do... like full remote control, more practical form factor, batteries lasting longer, full resolution 10-bit hdmi. Can be ordered in PL mount as well.

Z-Cam is a cheap chinese product, designed to penetrate the "mini" market. It's best codec is Pro Res 422 (no raw format) and is capped at 4k with a M43 mount. It has no built-in display. Only uses CF cards, so basically you're screwed with media price and did I mention a small imager like the 4k pocket?

The chinese cameras are garbage. The Kinefinity cameras at least have some semblance of quality, but no way are they even remotely close to the Red or Alexa versions. They just don't have the quality imager that the other brands have spent so much time developing. By contrast, Blackmagic work with Sony to develop imagers, so they are on the forefront of imaging technology. I have been very happy with the original pocket camera's imager, even though it has a very limited working range, you can get some great pictures out of it. 

4 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

As I see it, the Blackmagic and Z-cam are now competing directly with each other and the Kinefinity cameras (being less bang for the buck even when the intermediate mount system is very very nice solution) are those who are going to suffer 

The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema camera is a zero accessory, hand held camera for run and gun cinematography. It is not a studio narrative camera, of which there are dozens of models that exist. It's not in any way shape or form, in the same business as Z-cam, Kinefinity or Red/Arri. Nobody makes a run and gun 6k cinema camera with a 35mm imager EF mount. I'm referring to a camera you pop a card and battery into, attach a low-cost lens and go shoot cinematic images. 

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1 hour ago, Mark Kenfield said:

Doesn’t need 4k SDI.

It doesn't need SDI at all. HDMI and SDI are identical in every way except for metadata and the type of connector. 

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Look, I get it. It’s a cheap cheap camera for the masses. But for people working on conventional sets, this isn’t an A-Cam, it’s a C or D cam.

"The Masses" make up 99.99% of all content!!!! Why does nobody get that? Does nobody watch youtube, vimeo or facebook? 5 billion minutes of content are uploaded to youtube every single 24hr period. Then you add other services like Vimeo and Facebook, which in of themselves, probably together equate to the same amount. Do you think the narrative industry produces 10 billion minutes of content every 24hrs? No, they don't. 

Then let's think about all the streaming services and television content that's shot "documentary" style? Over 50% of television is reality and 20% is educational. So that means 70% of all content on television is not-narrative. Then you add in all the industrial, commercial and music videos produced, the number skyrockets. 

I just don't understand why everyone just assumes that every camera needs to be made for such a myopic production style in the grand scheme of things. This camera is made for the masses, for the people who don't have a lot of money to rent or own a more fancy setup. I would run this thing on a low-budget narrative in a heartbeat. In fact, I'd buy two of them and have A/B camera with all the lenses and accessories for less than a used 2k Alexa body. 

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You’d need to rent in additional HDMI wireless video units,

Why? Most people shoot their own content. For those rare times someone would need to transmit video, you can get extremely inexpensive HDMI wireless kits these days. The cheapest being $450 and it goes 300ft in a straight line and could be powered off the camera. 

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HDMI-based EVFs and onboard monitors,

Don't need an onboard monitor, it has one. If anything an EVF would be nice, but not necessary. 

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and a completely separate set of EF-mount cinema glass, for the camera to slot in comfortably with what you’re already working with.

It's rare to find a low-budget shooter like myself who doesn't have EF glass lying around. I don't even have an EF camera, but have gobs of EF glass thanks to EF adaptors to other camera mounts. Where I vastly prefer PL, it's not a PL camera, wrong market. Once you go PL mount, you open it up to the professional market and then you complain about the lack of other features that only some AC's on million dollar shoots care about. 

"Where is my film plane marker on the side of the camera for measuring focus" 
NOT NEEDED it has built-in focus assist. 

"Where do I attach rails for my fancy follow focus and mattebox"
Buy a shoulder kit and attach them to it. 

"Where are my P-taps"?  Attach an AB or V mount battery to the shoulder kit. 

"I can't see, its too bright out here" 
Buy a cheap EVF. 

etc... 

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My issue with the camera is that it doesn’t work in with any of the usual accessories we’d be carrying with us.

You mean on a narrative film set. Because outside of that very myopic sector, the accessories are pretty much plug and play because everyone else has been using HDMI and EF mount Canon still cameras for "video" work. A reminder that Panasonic, Sony and Canon all make small still cameras in this same price range that "crop" the imager and shoot .h264/.h265 codec's only. This camera is designed to destroy that market. 

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Can you acquire everything you need to make it work? Absolutely. But you’ve then left the realm of a $2,500 outlay FAR far behind. 

Anyone who expects to spend $2500 bux on a camera and not a penny more, is foolish anyway. It's a no-brainer you'll need lots of cFast storage, extra batteries, maybe that beautiful double battery tray, some sort of cage, yada yada yada... 

Ya know, I've been shooting film with my own professional cameras since 2015 and the accessories list will go on forever. I could literally never stop buying accessories. So the concept that buying accessories is somehow a deal killer because this camera doesn't work with what you consider "standard" accessories, is kinda silly. There is always something new, there is always something better, there is always something you break and need to replace and there is always something you never bought because you couldn't afford it. 

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4 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

AH yea, I've never owned an EF camera so there ya go! I use a PL mount on my M43rds mount. 

Z-Cam is a cheap chinese product, designed to penetrate the "mini" market. It's best codec is Pro Res 422 (no raw format) and is capped at 4k with a M43 mount. It has no built-in display. Only uses CF cards, so basically you're screwed with media price and did I mention a small imager like the 4k pocket?

The chinese cameras are garbage. The Kinefinity cameras at least have some semblance of quality, but no way are they even remotely close to the Red or Alexa versions. They just don't have the quality imager that the other brands have spent so much time developing. By contrast, Blackmagic work with Sony to develop imagers, so they are on the forefront of imaging technology. I have been very happy with the original pocket camera's imager, even though it has a very limited working range, you can get some great pictures out of it. 

The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema camera is a zero accessory, hand held camera for run and gun cinematography. It is not a studio narrative camera, of which there are dozens of models that exist. It's not in any way shape or form, in the same business as Z-cam, Kinefinity or Red/Arri. Nobody makes a run and gun 6k cinema camera with a 35mm imager EF mount. I'm referring to a camera you pop a card and battery into, attach a low-cost lens and go shoot cinematic images. 

I meant this model, NOT the m4/3 normal E2 model:  http://www.z-cam.com/e2-s6/ 

they are developing raw options for their cameras. we just started to use the regular E2 model for documentary stuff and it manages very well in that environment, especially when needing the remote controls.

 

the integrated monitor thing is not important for most users if they are really doing work-related stuff and not super low end vimeography as a hobby. A fixed non-orientable monitor on the back of the camera is just not usable at all in any real production environment, not even in low budget indie films. If you really want to do anything with the camera you will need a separate onboard monitor anyway. the built in display on the Pocket is usable though if one is so low budget that cannot even afford proper lenses to put on the camera...

 

It is nice to hear that the regular Pocket has been reliable in most uses. by my experience the Blackmagic hardware tends to be cheap build quality and unreliable at times so it would be great if they would have at least one product which does not release smoke and die in the middle of the production XD  

probably the 6K Pocket will not be delivered in time like has happened with all their camera models. Still better though than the Nikon Z6 raw option, they NEVER deliver the promised features not even one year late :P 

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12 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

I meant this model, NOT the m4/3 normal E2 model:  http://www.z-cam.com/e2-s6/ 

they are developing raw options for their cameras. we just started to use the regular E2 model for documentary stuff and it manages very well in that environment, especially when needing the remote controls.

Yea, but it has all the same problems the other model has. 

The main codec is still .h264/.h265 with a limited bandwidth of 300Mbps.  We haven't seen their raw codec working yet, so let's say for now, it doesn't work with DaVinci or any of the other post software natively. 

I don't understand the remote control comment. I have never in my entire life even considered triggering a camera remotely. Unless you're doing crash cam stuff, I don't see why you would need that function. 

 

12 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

the integrated monitor thing is not important for most users if they are really doing work-related stuff and not super low end vimeography as a hobby. A fixed non-orientable monitor on the back of the camera is just not usable at all in any real production environment, not even in low budget indie films. If you really want to do anything with the camera you will need a separate onboard monitor anyway. the built in display on the Pocket is usable though if one is so low budget that cannot even afford proper lenses to put on the camera...

Everyone is so interested in convenience, they're completely unwilling to bend on "creature comforts" and instead, go with a lesser codec or worse imager. People would rather shoot with a GH5  and that horrible menu system, unusable codec and worthless functions that make shooting, a completely miserable experience, all because they want a twist display. Having used the new pocket quite a bit, I agree the display could be considered worthless if you only use it directly out of the box. However, with a sun shade, it works great and adding on an electronic viewfinder to your "rig" would be the same for either camera anyway. 

One could spend a week arguing about the "professionalism" of the 10 billion minutes of finished content uploaded to streaming sites every 24hr period. Many of those people are being paid to shoot and are probably getting paid more than most DP's make on average. So arguing the point that only low-end videographers would use the rear display, is kind of not a valid point. Nearly all content in the world is made by low-end videographers and the 4k version of this camera is marketed directly to them. Even the 6k pocket is marketed to the low-end market. Again, nobody is going to replace their Red Dragon or Alexa mini with one of these. 

12 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

It is nice to hear that the regular Pocket has been reliable in most uses. by my experience the Blackmagic hardware tends to be cheap build quality and unreliable at times so it would be great if they would have at least one product which does not release smoke and die in the middle of the production XD  

The first two cinema cameras they made, had a major defect... they put the batteries inside the cameras and didn't provide adequate cooling. So the batteries simply overheated and many cameras melted down. Since then, the pocket and URSA cameras have been pretty damn good. I can tell you many "manufacturer defect" issues on many other Japanese cameras. The reason why you don't hear about it is because generally they're owned by consumers, who aren't on cinematography forums complaining. 

I have owned the original pocket cinema cameras since late 2012 and they have been around the world on 100's of shoots, worked on a few documentary features and I have personally shot countless productions with them. To this day, they still power up fine and work great. I just don't use them anymore because clients won't accept 1080p. Heck the current industrial film I'm working on, which is talking heads, complete 4k production and finish. So yea, where I do love the old pocket, it's long in the tooth. The new pocket is a superior camera in every way outside of physical size. I will miss that smaller form factor, but I would trade it for it's features and resolution any day of the week. 

12 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

probably the 6K Pocket will not be delivered in time like has happened with all their camera models. Still better though than the Nikon Z6 raw option, they NEVER deliver the promised features not even one year late 😛

Blackmagic have always been delayed on release. So have many companies who rely heavily on custom components coming from China. Off the shelf components are easy to source, but when you develop your own imager and ASIC (which is what they did), the lead times can be very long. Grant Petty has stated many times, some parts are 72 week lead time. Big companies like Sony and Panasonic don't have to deal with that issue because they own the companies who make the IC's, but blackmagic does not. Plus neither of those companies is trying hard to make something new and unique. They are making the same thing over and over again, so they aren't bound to new chipsets that don't exist yet. This could be the reason why the Japanese camera companies as a whole are so delayed in doing what blackmagic had been doing for so long. 

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the local broadcast store claims that it already has a small quantity of the 6K model in stock. 

If that's true it is really really impressive of Blackmagic. Finally they being able to deliver SOMETHING in time 🤣 

I am boycotting their cameras for now so not going buy this one any time soon but pretty great thing anyway that they have something out already and not next year 😊

 

(I would need PL mount anyway so the 6K model would not do and the 4K model has too small sensor to be usable with the PL lenses I want to use. If they would have the 6K model with MFT mount then it would be pretty interesting for me )

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5 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

the local broadcast store claims that it already has a small quantity of the 6K model in stock. 

If that's true it is really really impressive of Blackmagic. Finally they being able to deliver SOMETHING in time 🤣 

I am boycotting their cameras for now so not going buy this one any time soon but pretty great thing anyway that they have something out already and not next year 😊

It wasn't blackmagic's fault for the camera delay. They had issues with the manufacturer of some custom components. They have since switched those components out on the 6k camera, so they will no longer have those issues again. Sometimes suppliers don't let manufacturers know what's going on and likewise, manufacturers have a hard time explaining the issues to customers because they would be pissed at someone in China. So they kept the issues under wraps and like many manufacturers, they have a bad wrap for it. I had no problems buying an original pocket camera and the Ursa Mini Pro has always been in stock. 

So I wouldn't boycott the only company who is standing up for the little guy. 

5 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

 

(I would need PL mount anyway so the 6K model would not do and the 4K model has too small sensor to be usable with the PL lenses I want to use. If they would have the 6K model with MFT mount then it would be pretty interesting for me )

Few things. 1) The EF mount is the only way to run a Super 35mm imager, can't do that in a MTF mount. 2) PL mount is only necessary for us older folks who have classic cinema glass for our fancy cinema cameras. The Blackmagic Pocket camera is not made for us. It's made for people who have a DSLR and want to upgrade, ya know... the 99.95% of everyone else. 3) A PL mount would make the camera worthless for people who don't have money. There are currently 7 manufacturers making cinema primes in EF mount, including Zeiss, Canon, Sigma etc... So if you can't find decent glass for cheap, IDK what to say. Yes it sucks for the .05% of us who have Super 35mm PL mount glass sitting around, but I don't think it's a big deal. 

 

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I just wish they would stop pushing resolution and bring back global shutter.  The original URSA was an excellent camera.  The 10" built in screen was less excellent, but the image was nice.

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