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Dealing with VIMEO and grain 'reduction' on my 16mm footage


Stephen Perera

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......so I've completed a project (nearly) and uploaded to VIMEO to show client.......even though they are very happy and thrilled with result I am NOT happy with the way VIMEO tries to take out my grain....I shot on 16mm.....enough said.....any thoughts?

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I've not had a single problem with Vimeo playback. You have to upload a master file to Vimeo, either DNX or Pro Res works fine. If you upload a .h264/.h265 file, you will be sad by the results. If you wish to retain grain, master file is the only way you can do it. I've had zero problems retaining grain with Vimeo.

Another issue could be you're not playing back at full resolution. 

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Response from VIMEO:
 

 


As you may know, bit rate controls the visual quality of your encoded videos. Higher bit rates lead to a higher quality reproduction, but they also lead to larger file sizes and therefore reduced streaming performance over the web. It's a tradeoff. 

The bit rate for each video we generate is variable, meaning it will change over the course of the video depending on the visual complexity of each frame (or series of frames). For example, visually complex portions of your video will be encoded at a high bit rate but a lower bit rate will be used when the visual complexity drops. This allows us to efficiently balance visual quality with playback performance.

Though bit rate varies during our conversion process, they never exceed the maximum bit rate we set.

We impose a maximum bit rate to ensure that our videos will be playable across a wide range of viewer Internet speeds. If we allowed bit rates to rise above our maximum, it would produce HD files that many viewers would not be able to view without excessive buffering. Most videos never hit the maximum rate, so there is no significant quality loss. It's only videos (or particular shots within videos) with extremely high levels of visual complexity that may suffer visibly.

If you'd like, we can encode your video at an extra-high bit rate. This should preserve the grain of your 16mm footage. 

Please be aware that the resulting video will larger, so the playback may suffer for viewers with slower Internet connections. 

If you'd like to proceed, please send me a link to the video you'd like extra-high bitrate encoding for, and we will be able to move forward from there. 
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14 hours ago, Bob Speziale said:

Not intended to be. OP said he didn't like the way Vimeo tried to remove the grain. Figured he wanted the grain to show. Thought Youtube might leave it as is.

YouTube quality is horrendous, absolutely horrendous. Vimeo is the best it gets out there. 

@Bruce: Heh, if on YouTube, then yes. But I've seen plenty of stuff shot on film on Vimeo that held up in streaming, although of course, you want to download the original file itself. I often watch stuff on Netflix in ethernet, and the grain definitely holds up on films shot on film. 

Edited by Manu Delpech
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yes Vimeo is no doubt the best......here's the footage...I'm traditional stills photographer not a cinematographer but that being said I know what I'm looking at.....I'm after my original 'acutance'....I shot 250D for the first part (Governor's Banquet Hall) and 500T inside the glass factory......I've bored everyone with this project before hahaha but here it is anyway as my final edit to show client....need to add the 'text' in the info sections....the raison d'être of this piece was to show on a TV screen at the factory when the glassblowers are not creating pieces.....and yes I know the candles went sideways as I dollied past the table....nothing I could do....I was shooting 1:1 ratio.....what I shot is what I have used.....and I was on a clock to finish and get out of there as this is a highly 'restricted' area.......if anyone is remotely interested in anything about the filming please ask....e.g. camera? Aaton XTR XC (the one where i don't even know how much film I've used up, no electronics whatsoever)...lens? Cooke Varokinetal 9-50mm T2.2 zoom on standard 16mm gate....lights? I used Arri tungstens 650plus, 300plus, Arri L7-C that I own.....with gels on some....I wanted surreal and colourful as opposed to the bright white light (6500k) they work under.....remember this is to attract attention a TV screen.....the music? well I wanted it all to look and sound like its a piece from the 70s

 

Edited by Stephen Perera
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If its for client approval, surly the current vimeo version is good enough though. Its more about content.  Or just put a higher quality version on dropbox or wetransfer. 

Personally I don't send "best quality" versions for client approval, particularly if they might want further changes, it just needs to be good enough to aid discussion. I also put burn't in timecode on the video - that helps the client reference a specific shot. If you are waiting on a final payment on delivery, you don't want the client having access to clean hi-res version before then. 

 

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Hey Phil yes I get you but in this case its fine and not an issue.....it just annoys me I don't see what i did when on internet land.....Ive since uploaded a HD version of the piece....as ProRes 422HD to see if it looks better

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Unfortunately its always going to be a compromise and streaming platforms have to strike a balance.  The BBC's approach for years was to ban 16mm acquisition because the compression rates on HD transmission were to high to cope.  In comparison Vimeo looks pretty good. Platforms are built to use data efficiently, most content is shot digitally and platform's are sensibly optimised for that.  

We are moving in a positive direction - Netflix 4K for instance looks pretty decent. 

Another thing you could try is upressing to 4K, then you automatically benefit from a higher bit rate that most platforms allow cate for 4K streams. I've done it a few times with HD content for youtube as a way to squeeze extra quality

For instance the Netflix 4k stream of "Breaking Bad" looks quite a lot better then the HD version even though its sourced from a HD master and up-converted, more film grain survives.  

 

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Thanks Phil...as we speak I'm running the piece through HANDBRAKE v.1.2.2 with a set of variables a high level 3D guy friend of mine has recommended I use....will post on how that resolves or doesn't my 'issue'.
He told me to output from DaVinci Resolve at ProRes 422HD and then run through Handbrake outputting from there as a H265 see screenshot on next post

Edited by Stephen Perera
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You can only try your best, you have no control how it looks out in the wild.

Even if you nail the settings, and create the perfect looking file. People are going to watch it on screens with out of wack colour settings. My TV had noise reduction and frame interpolation turned on as standard when I brought it. Most TV's have the brightness and contrast cranked so they look good in the TV showroom - most users aren't going to sit down and carefully collaborate their screens to resolve that

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5 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

Thanks Phil...as we speak I'm running the piece through HANDBRAKE v.1.2.2 with a set of variables a high level 3D guy friend of mine has recommended I use....will post on how that resolves or doesn't my 'issue'.
He told me to output from DaVinci Resolve at ProRes 422HD and then run through Handbrake outputting from there as a H265 see screenshot on next post

Making yet another .h264 file, isn't going to solve anything. Handbreak is a good encoder, but Resolve is a WAY BETTER encoder. 

The trick is to send Vimeo the highest bitrate possible. Also, the largest frame size as well. 

This was scanned at 3k, up-resed to 4k in Resolve and put on Vimeo as a Pro Res LT 4k file. It was like 13gb, but with dropbox link these days, you can have it upload overnight on your dropbox then in the morning, link it to your vimeo account and then it uploads nearly instantly to Vimeo. 

Notice how it's pretty noiseless, the 4k master on my grading monitor has a noticeable grain, if I play the Vimeo file back on a 4k monitor it does as well. I think giving them a 4k file helps a lot, even if your project isn't 4k. 

 

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