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Fernando Vilanova

ARRI AMIRA in 2019 - Does it hold up?

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I'm a DP working out of Central America and most of my work is high-end commercials in the region.  I do some eventual documentaries, music videos, short films, etc, but my bread and butter is commercial work.  So far, I've been renting gear out and mostly shooting on Arri Alexa Plus and RED Epic MX.  I do not own any important personal gear.

There are a couple of jobs coming up and I have the opportunity to invest about $20k on a camera package.  50% of the investment would be paid off within the next 2-3 months.  So far, I've been thinking about purchasing a used Arri AMIRA.  I like the fact that you can shoot 3.4k RAW, am a huge fan of ARRI's color science and the sensor's dynamic range.  My main concern is that this camera was released six years ago and sensor technology is quickly evolving.  

I've also been looking at the new Sony FX9 as an option or even spending a little more money and going for a RED GEMINI (just because of native resolution and trying to future proof the investment). 

My gut keeps telling to go with the AMIRA, but I would really like to hear other opinions and ideas!

Thanks.

 

Edited by Fernando Vilanova
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As your a freelancer I would be worried about the lack of 4K.. I wouldn't worry about the Amira being 6 years old, the sensor tech is much older .. even in the new Arri,s.. they glue them together.. 🙂 .. not that it does them any harm .. but seriously I think the lack of 4K is already a  drawback for a gun for hire.. I would go for the fx9.. its very cheap ..or the C500II... if your spending money in late.. 2019 you might as well go FF sensor..  I know I'll get the usual Arri is best thing.. and maybe it is.. but for a FREELANCER.. the Amira,s lack of 4K is a gamble ..in my humble opinion.. and also Im right 99% of the time.. 

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I think with Arri we are probably very close to releasing a new sensor. They are going to have to move on from the 10 year old sensor tech quite soon or be left behind in the market. (this is a guess, but at some point they have to update and that has to happen in the next 12 to 18 months or Arri risks being wiped out by the competitors)

If you can pay off the Amira before that happens, then your fine. But if Arri come out with a new range of cameras (with new sensors), I think it would kill your Amira rentals. 

Rightnow people will rent Arri's with 3.4k sensors because they want Arri colour science and can compromise on resolution to get it. (Alexa LF and 65 being too expensive for most budgets). The Alexa still rents because there isn't a super 35mm Arri with 4K+ resolution as an option. Of course also an Alexa shooting 3.4K is still good enough for most things.

But once there is a new Arri 4k/6k (what ever), people are going to want that.... Not the old tech. So you'd ideal want to pay off your investment before that happens, an Amira would still be a nice camera but its going to be as popular as a F35 or D21 is now.  The market will want the latest tech (even if the old tech is fine) 

The FX9 at least is a newer sensor/design and because its FF and 6K, it could still be marketable in a market that has the next generation Arri's in it. The FS7 has been a solid investment for many freelancers with a decent level of demand, in the UK its become the default (non Arri) broadcast and industrial camera. 

If the FX9 continues that trend it could be a good buy. Depending on the market but in the UK the FX9 would be a no brainer in that budget range. The issue with RED's is clients may be looking at the top end 8K super death skull version, rather then the 5K Gemini (even if its better). So you might loose out to people with the higher spec, people booking RED's are usually doing it so they can go 8K.... blah blah blah weapons.... Otherwise the Scarlets and the Epics would still be asked for... 

Its always a gamble though and dependant on what the local prod co's look for. For instance Black Magic make some decent cameras but I've never seen a job posting in my market for an Operator with BM camera, they all ask for Sony FS7, Arri or RED. 

Or save money for the new Arri....

 

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If you're getting consistent work without owning gear, then why bother?  It's a huge liability that depreciates instantly.  It can also sometimes work against you if production decides to haggle with you over the price.  They're not doing that now and everything is going well, so why change that?

It's hard to bargain with a rental house because there's a "fair market value" rate industry wide that is accepted for each camera package.   In my experience that rate minimum goes out the window fast when it's your own gear.  People expect you to give it away for next to nothing.  

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1 hour ago, Michael LaVoie said:

If you're getting consistent work without owning gear, then why bother?  It's a huge liability that depreciates instantly.  It can also sometimes work against you if production decides to haggle with you over the price.  They're not doing that now and everything is going well, so why change that?

It's hard to bargain with a rental house because there's a "fair market value" rate industry wide that is accepted for each camera package.   In my experience that rate minimum goes out the window fast when it's your own gear.  People expect you to give it away for next to nothing.  

also this^

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Don't own something unless you HAVE to own it.

If I had 20K sitting around I'd put it into some kind of investment fund; and then use the interest it generates over it's lifetime to buy the things make my life easier--- such as fav filters, or maybe a special light, or literally anything but a 20K computer which may or may not be outdated every single year because of an announcement at NAB. It is sad, in many ways, that we are to the point where the camera is nearly disposable.

'Course if you asked this when the Amira launched, then sure, go for it. But think about all those buys who just bought the Alexa LF; only to have the LF mini come out. .   .

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Maybe it depends what your shooting .. but I would have exact opposite advise .. and its certainly been the case for me.. owning gear is a license to print money.. its all tax deductible and making you hundreds of dollars a day..thousands a week... its alot better than any investment scheme .. you have the gear with you.. you know it works and you know how it works inside out.. and is maintained ... Except the top end..where the day rate is big and alot of gear is rented in a big package.. I dont see how anyone makes a living in this game without owning gear .. all the freelancers I know own their own gear..(AC,s have their own gear !) .. and cameras are so cheap now.. my 6 years old f5 has made its money back many times over.. the lenses even more so..no investment scheme could get even near it.. Ive had a tripod for nearly 25 years !.. if you have the work, and a camera thats in demand .. its an absolute no brainer to buy gear ..and never has the return been so big ..any doc,corprate DP not owning gear is just giving money away.. 

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Every Job I've done recently, I've supplied gear. 

Renting in can give more flexibility and protect you from changing tech. But it is a massive hassle to sort and often you loose a day to collect and return that kit that you can't bill for. 

Owning works if you choose the right kit, it saves time if you don't need to collect it.  I own lights and a tripod - and I usually rent camera + lenses. 

In the UK its difficult to charge book rates on personal stock, clients do put the squeeze on. You can stand firm, but you also might struggle to book work when so many are giving kit away. 

Sure, I should be hired on the my skills not my cheap kit, but many clients don't know the difference between good and bad work and will just book crew/kit on price. 

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For music video, commercial, documentary and industrial work, it's fine. For narrative work, I would probably invest in a more "narrative" package like an Arri Mini. 

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4 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

For music video, commercial, documentary and industrial work, it's fine. For narrative work, I would probably invest in a more "narrative" package like an Arri Mini. 

The Mini is a bit more expensive compared to the Amira, but then it might rent better as well. At work we looked into getting an Amira, but the dealer also quoted in the Mini and it was quite a bit more spendy. However they did state Amira doesn't have the same "brand awareness" that the mini has - its the goto drama camera. 

The FX9 is a bit untested and will be more of a broadcast/industrial camera. However if its got Venice colour science it could gain popularity in the field. The FS7 is not used that much on drama shoots here, but its actually pretty good and deserves a bit more love.  If I was in the market for a camera at the price point, I'd look at it carefully. 

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1 hour ago, Phil Connolly said:

The Mini is a bit more expensive compared to the Amira, but then it might rent better as well. At work we looked into getting an Amira, but the dealer also quoted in the Mini and it was quite a bit more spendy. However they did state Amira doesn't have the same "brand awareness" that the mini has - its the goto drama camera. 

Yea, there is a price difference, but the Amira is an expensive camera to begin with. The mini has this clout around it that the Amira doesn't sadly. I know people with Amira's who struggle to rent them on narrative shows. Great camera for everything else, but sadly the narrative people don't like it. 

1 hour ago, Phil Connolly said:

The FX9 is a bit untested and will be more of a broadcast/industrial camera. However if its got Venice colour science it could gain popularity in the field. The FS7 is not used that much on drama shoots here, but its actually pretty good and deserves a bit more love.  If I was in the market for a camera at the price point, I'd look at it carefully. 

I mean it's Sony... the only people who use Sony are Documentary peeps and TV shows. Outside of the Venice, which is getting a bit of traction, they don't make anything else that's workable as a rental package. The Arri's are cheaper used and have a better marketing ability. 

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But the OP doesn't mention anything about renting out his gear.. his market is events, documentaries ,music video and short films.. for $10,000 the fx9 will give dual ISO,Venice color,6K down sampling to 4K/HD, FF or s35.. a brand new sensor that is large enough for anamorphic, if implemented in future FW.. amazing AF if you want it.. and E mount that can be adapted to pretty much any lens in the universe ..  this or a 2nd hand Amira that will cost the same or more.. ?

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I actually dislike using the Mini a lot! It becomes heavy, oddly balanced, and the amount of add on accessories make the camera annoying to use as an AC. Plus, the only way to control the camera is through the EVF or the very expensive WCU. Sure, there's the "app", but it's a slow to respond web page the camera generates. Once the camera is built out, it's the same size as an Alexa Classic or Amira!

The Amira is actually a better camera for narrative, in my opinion; it just lacks the ability to do anamorphic and RAW. Other than that, it's an easier camera to build out and is better balanced.

Just my two cents!

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On 10/21/2019 at 3:34 AM, Fernando Vilanova said:

I've also been looking at the new Sony FX9 as an option or even spending a little more money and going for a RED GEMINI (just because of native resolution and trying to future proof the investment). 

Digital cameras are never future proof. You have to calculate how quickly you will get the purchase price back and base your decision on that. In two years you will probably update to the next camera model. Better to purchase only when absolutely needed and as late as possible and then try to work like a madman with the gear to grab as much money as you can with it before it goes obsolete and needs to be upgraded. 

Personally I only want to purchase equipment which is difficult or impossible or expensive to rent locally like specific lower end camera models, onboard recorders, steadicam and gimbals, underwater gear, some drone models, special lenses. No need to own the Alexa Mini or S4 lens set, they can be rented from anywhere for a good price. But if you need a Konvas or Bolex or a set of spherical Lomos or a remote controlled underwater camera it may not be as easy because they are not highly demanded stuff which everyone uses daily and the rental houses thus don't have them.

If you do lots of doc work then the fx9 would be a great choice. for narrative work the lenses and support gear are the main problem I think... you can't get really good cine lenses without spending a fortune and the investment will pay itself back slowly. And you will probably choose a set which could be easily rented for affordable price from the nearest rental house whenever you need it. In the case of the Gemini you would have money for the camera but not for the lenses. with FX9 you could get a good camera and reasonable quality doc /corporate / music video lenses and when a feature comes up you can add a PL adapter , fit in the same primes than the main camera and shoot second unit or other stuff with it. OR you could rent the higher end lenses if the customer demands them on music video /corporate/commercial shoots and keep your own camera.

(personally I prefer owning lenses though. A good digital camera serves you 3 to 5 years but a good lens set serves you a lifetime. )

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This idea that you will be buying a new camera every -3-5 years if its digital is always put forward  by people who haven't bought a camera .. 🙂  .. you will have a good 6 to 8 years out of it.. if you buy wisely...(even if it was 3 years you would be many tens of thousands of dollars ahead) .. and a brand thats always going to be requested ,has world wide backup and support.. ..  and the prices have plummeted since ENG days .. by about 75%.. you can make your investment back actually in a few months these days.. a year at the very most.. the good thing about E mount camera,s.. including the Venice .. is you can put any lens on them.. need PL rent or buy.. cheaper shoots use stills lenses .or cheaper PL /EF lenses... your covered for everything.. gear is not expensive anymore relatively  .. if you have work its nuts not to buy all the gear you can.. every single freelancer I know has their own camera /lenses/lights/ A7,s /audio gear / tripods .... they are not having to buy new camera,s every 3 years.. this is just simply not true.. you can buy what ever lenses suit your market.. the corp/ doc guy is not suddenly shooting a big budget Hollywood feature  and need anamorphic primes.. that just doesn't happen..   alot of incorrect information going down here to the OP..  gear will and always will make alot  more money than you showing up on set with a pulse and a lens cap..this is just an undeniable fact.. 

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15 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

But the OP doesn't mention anything about renting out his gear.. his market is events, documentaries ,music video and short films.. for $10,000 the fx9 will give dual ISO,Venice color,6K down sampling to 4K/HD, FF or s35.. a brand new sensor that is large enough for anamorphic, if implemented in future FW.. amazing AF if you want it.. and E mount that can be adapted to pretty much any lens in the universe ..  this or a 2nd hand Amira that will cost the same or more.. ?

I just assume people who own cameras, "rent" themselves and their cameras out for production. At least in the states, most filmmakers higher DP's who know a certain camera and if you own that camera, all the better. Like you with the F5 and commercial/industrial/doc work, you get work based on your skills and package. 

The FX9 does look neat, but it still has all the Sony issues, which I've discussed at length. Don't get me wrong, the Venice does look pretty good, but having used it more and more, I realize it still has so many of the same color science issues Sony is oh so well known for. Where the Venice imager is a HUGE step up from the F65 imager and the FX9 will clearly blow the doors off the FS7 (one of my least favorite cameras made) in probably every department, I just think Sony is still spinning in circles. You'd be shocked how few rental houses have invested in the Venice, even though it's been out for a while. I've been around asking some of my friends who own rental businesses and many have not invested at all. The number 1 camera is the Arri Mini, followed closely by the LF. 

The Amira used is a lot of money, close to $30k with the important licenses. You can get an Arri XT Plus for around $20k which in my opinion is a better camera than the mini anyway. 

Personally, I wouldn't buy jack shit right now, unless it was a cheap toy like the BMPCC 6k. The next generation of imager technology is right around the corner and all of the cameras that have the current tech will be entirely worthless when it comes out. Arri are WAY behind in imager technology and I personally don't think they will be catching up. The only thing Arri has going for them is the color science and compatibility with Arri accessories. Imagine if Red figured out their color science and reliability? Arri would be in big trouble with it's current lineup. 

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3 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

This idea that you will be buying a new camera every -3-5 years if its digital is always put forward  by people who haven't bought a camera .. 🙂  ..

Yea, but you don't exactly work in the film industry. TV is an entirely different planet. 

For the film industry, 3 years is about average lifespan for a digital package. It's not because the cameras are worthless after 3 years, it's because things start to fail on them and rental houses/owners get tired of dealing with it. Sony's have good reliability however, so you may not have seen this first hand. 

3 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

the good thing about E mount camera,s.. including the Venice .. is you can put any lens on them.. need PL rent or buy.. cheaper shoots use stills lenses .or cheaper PL /EF lenses... your covered for everything.. gear is not expensive anymore relatively  ..

I agree, I think the short flange distance mount cameras are smart. Red and Blackmagic Designs, do the same thing, they have removable lens mounts. I don't know why Arri hasn't gone this way, it's kinda silly. 

3 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

 gear will and always will make alot  more money than you showing up on set with a pulse and a lens cap..this is just an undeniable fact.. 

I disagree. I know MANY really talented filmmakers with fancy cameras, who are still doing low-pay jobs just to get by. Heck, many of my friends who have decent packages, go through rental houses because they themselves can't get enough work. 

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Agreed Sony is pretty rare on drama shoots right now. 

15-20 years ago in the UK it was the opposite, most digitally shot UK dramas were shot on Digi-Beta and HDCAM. Things like Doctor Who, Spaced, League of Gentlemen etc..  The Alexa took over the high end pretty quick and Sony never recovered. 

Sonys have there issues and the menus aren't for the faint hearted. But they have offered some decent cameras that work really well in their niche. The EX1 and EX3 were ground breaking at the time and elevated the quality of affordable cameras hugely. 

The FX9 does look like it could be a good swiss army knife camera. Not the best at anything but good enough for a range of applications. In the education sector I'm in, I'd look at very closely since it could be a good training camera that put to use on News, Doco, short films and music videos. With FF and S35 and anamorphic capability  - it ticks quite a few points for us. We aren't looking for best in class but something versatile - I would get it on for a test at least, to consider further. The Lens mount is also good, as we have quite a random collection of lenses in different mounts.

Currently we have a mixture of FS7's and BM Pocket 4K's. The FS7 has been a good teaching workhorse, I prefer it to the C300. Black magics are good, but delivery times and reliability can be an issue. We brought 5 BM pockets in June. 2 have been returned for warranty repairs so far.  The Sony's have always been like tanks. We have Z1's and Z5's that have been abused for over 10 years that still working fine. 

However if you get a great deal on the Amira it could still be worth it depending on how busy you are. But your stuck with a non 4K camera that won't pass 4K QC for some distributors and maybe thats an issue going forward. Or it may not matter, if you have no plans to shoot a Netflix drama on it. 

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Tyler san ...My posts directed to the OP,s question.... he's also not in the film industry .. he shoots the same stuff as me.. and as such .. buying a camera /gear is a very good idea.. as he also wants to do..  but buying an Amira is in my opinion ,due to its lack of 4K.. not a good move .. thats all Im saying.. yes agreed in the high end feature film world its alot less common.. but there are actually quite a few DP,s now who own their own camera,s and lenses ..  as the prices go down I think more will do it.. but rental companies here definitely use there Digital packages alot longer than 3 years .. also the same in the UK,SIngapore and Australia .. they all have Alexa,s, Canons  and fs7 s that are well over 3 years old.. 

Yes although not my market ,as an AC I was involved a bit in the indie drama world.. and its a tough place for sure for a DP to begin with.. every famous DP I have  read about has had some lucky break at the beginning of there career .. but alot dont who are talented too..

Edited by Robin R Probyn

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7 hours ago, Phil Connolly said:

Agreed Sony is pretty rare on drama shoots right now. 

15-20 years ago in the UK it was the opposite, most digitally shot UK dramas were shot on Digi-Beta and HDCAM. Things like Doctor Who, Spaced, League of Gentlemen etc..  The Alexa took over the high end pretty quick and Sony never recovered. 

Sonys have there issues and the menus aren't for the faint hearted. But they have offered some decent cameras that work really well in their niche. The EX1 and EX3 were ground breaking at the time and elevated the quality of affordable cameras hugely. 

The FX9 does look like it could be a good swiss army knife camera. Not the best at anything but good enough for a range of applications. In the education sector I'm in, I'd look at very closely since it could be a good training camera that put to use on News, Doco, short films and music videos. With FF and S35 and anamorphic capability  - it ticks quite a few points for us. We aren't looking for best in class but something versatile - I would get it on for a test at least, to consider further. The Lens mount is also good, as we have quite a random collection of lenses in different mounts.

Currently we have a mixture of FS7's and BM Pocket 4K's. The FS7 has been a good teaching workhorse, I prefer it to the C300. Black magics are good, but delivery times and reliability can be an issue. We brought 5 BM pockets in June. 2 have been returned for warranty repairs so far.  The Sony's have always been like tanks. We have Z1's and Z5's that have been abused for over 10 years that still working fine. 

However if you get a great deal on the Amira it could still be worth it depending on how busy you are. But your stuck with a non 4K camera that won't pass 4K QC for some distributors and maybe thats an issue going forward. Or it may not matter, if you have no plans to shoot a Netflix drama on it. 

Thing is ,its not just Netflix drama,s.. it just about every corporate shoot .. and alot of interviews for docs..  they want to be able to crop in.. no 4K .. you cant use that camera..  you will have to rent one..or not do the shoot..

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7 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

For the film industry, 3 years is about average lifespan for a digital package. It's not because the cameras are worthless after 3 years, it's because things start to fail on them and rental houses/owners get tired of dealing with it. Sony's have good reliability however, so you may not have seen this first hand. 

Arris are even more reliable and are the most rented cameras for “film industry” shoots like features or long form dramas. We have 8 year old Alexa’s that are still working fine, and 4 year old Minis that go out all the time without a hitch, so it’s nothing to do with things starting to fail. The reason they become less valuable is because newer cameras hit the market and people always want the latest toy. Venice and Mini LF are the hot items now, but I’d estimate most of our rental shoots still use ALEXA Minis, so a 4 year old ALEXA Mini is far from worthless. Alexa classics and Amiras don’t get much use anymore though, but the image is no different to a Mini. It’s about form factor and fashion.

Once Arri release a new sensor (and providing the market approves of it) things will change.

7 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I agree, I think the short flange distance mount cameras are smart. Red and Blackmagic Designs, do the same thing, they have removable lens mounts. I don't know why Arri hasn't gone this way, it's kinda silly.  

Because Arri have always aimed for the high end market, and nobody in that part of the industry wants to use crappy stills mounts like EF or Sony. You can actually remove the lens mount block on Alexas and replace it with other mounts - we do it with PV mounts all the time - but no-one asks for Sony or EF or those sorts of mounts. 

Anyway, Arri have now gone that way with their shorter flange depth LPL mount which can adapt to lots of other mounts. Panavision did it a few years back with their SP70 mount. But again, no-one asks for stills mounts in our neck of the industry. 

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Dom .. totally agree re crappy stills mounts.. but since the fs7II.. (yes never going to be a feature film camera !).. Sony have implemented a new locking E mount.. and a far stronger chassis .. its like PL but tightening in the opposite direction.. its also the native mount on the Venice ,and the fx9.. much improved and PL adapters or "cine" E mounts are all very safe to use..  I sound like such a Sony fanboy .. but really Im not 🙂 .. I think all the current s35 sensor camera,s are good..and Ive used most of them.. there really isnt  a rubbish camera anymore.. my only point in this thread is that the OP is running a risk to buy a non 4K camera for the work he does .. which seems to be exactly what I do .. and 4K is requested alot..the Amira will simply be turned down..

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Yes good advice Robin. (I wouldn’t call you a Sony fanboy, more a crusader against unjust Sony discrimination and nemesis of sound recordists wherever they lurk.)

I was just responding to some of Tyler’s pronouncements on the film industry.

I didn’t know about the upgraded Sony mount, all our Venice’s have been converted to Panavision’s SP70 mount. Different markets, different needs.

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10 hours ago, Dom Jaeger said:

Yes good advice Robin. (I wouldn’t call you a Sony fanboy, more a crusader against unjust Sony discrimination and nemesis of sound recordists wherever they lurk.)

I was just responding to some of Tyler’s pronouncements on the film industry.

I didn’t know about the upgraded Sony mount, all our Venice’s have been converted to Panavision’s SP70 mount. Different markets, different needs.

I even like sound recordists .. Im just jealous of their vast wealth.. and Bentleys .. yeah I was surprised when the Venice came out native E mount !! the up graded one of course..but even so you just expected it to be PL.. who would have thought !.. . .. now the fx9 is out, and Sony have made plain their "universal E mount " world domination plan.. and are releasing a new set of "cine Zooms"..mid level about $5,500.. which will incorporate the AF that the fx9 will have.. taken and refined from the a7 camera,s.. it is pretty impressive TBH.. and I was the the first to rubbish AF in the professional field ..!! much eating of words.. but I doubt it will gain traction in the feature film world.. but certainly good for FF interviews on an f1.8/ 85mm.. for corps/doc.s..

I shot with a Sony fs7II today..only 3rd time I think.. and really the electronic variable ND is just a genius invention.. thats only in Sony camera,s.. Venice has its own amazing ND system,...  but wow and double wow .. so good to work with.. 

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