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Dream 'job', massive budget - would you shoot digital or film?


Stephen Perera

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6 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

"There are so many new ways of telling stories visually. I like digital, but I am a purist... I love film… I love the look of film but things move on....(digital) is the future and film may not be made very shortly, so its a done deal really, I wanted to be in a place where I felt comfortable shooting digital. " 

- On Hail Cesar-  "We had some stock issues and stuff like that, which was really disconcerting. And I’ve heard that’s happened to a lot of people lately, you know, stock and lab problems. That’s unnerving. I mean I never really remember having those kind of problems before. But it makes me nervous now. I don’t want to do that again, frankly. I don’t think the infrastructure’s there....As I say, just the technical problems with film, I’m sorry, it’s over."

"I was initially scared to shoot digital...but there wasn't a camera that persuaded me before the Alexa." 

 "I've never used filters, I'm use to shooting with tungsten stock and correcting in the lab...with the Alexa I had to start stacking filters on front of the camera, especially on a bright day... It's difficult to get use to." 

"You can get there -to the film look- with digital, you just need to add grain and de-focus it. I love film grain and with the films we did DI, I was able to add it anywhere I wanted." 

"What drew me to the Alexa, the falloff, the rolloff between the two. Every digital camera I've seen has this problem. Maybe once or twice if you get the exposure wrong on a bright day, it'll suddenly look too sharp and clean. It's that kind of subtly of image, is what I like about an image, comparing it with film and saying that's what I like." 
 

 

Please read below .. posted by AJ just a few pages back..this is a real quote.. he posted a link to the source if you want to check.. not fabricated words pulled from the air .. most specially "Digital is simply better:".. here you go again..  you are really your worst enemy man.. 

Here are a few quotes from Roger Deakins ASC BSC:

"Mostly, I found shooting digital very freeing. If I were shooting film, I would always try to err on the side of safety when I was doing something risky, to make sure I didn’t lose my blacks or reveal something I didn’t want to see. With digital, because I could basically see the final image while I was shooting, I felt I could push myself a lot further creatively."

"Sometimes I get annoyed with the garbage I hear about film vs. digital. Most of it is simply nostalgia and silly thinking. I love film, sure, but [the Alexa] has brought us to a point where digital is simply better. In my opinion, there are now more advantages than disadvantages to digital cinematography."

Edited by Robin R Probyn
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Tyler  what do you have to say about Rogers Deakins actual comments on digital V,s film..that I just posted .. they very obviously completely contradict, words or sentiments you point blank attribute to Roger Deakins.. this is not your opinion or experience or you heard from "friends"..  you put that forward as a fact that Roger Deakins " thinks film looks better than Digital in most cases ..".. you backed it up with quotes where he doesn't say that..and I have countered with actual real quotes ,that say the very exact opposite .. are you going  to address this post.. or just ignore it as you usually do when I or anyone else happens to point out what you said is totally untrue / wrong / a figment of your imagination  ..  ?   whats your answer ..

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8 hours ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

Even if you shoot the Venice in Super 35 mode and use the same lenses, you will have a completely different looking image than 5219 pushed 2 stops. They may both look aesthetically pleasing (in different ways), and perhaps you can grade the Venice to look more like the film image. But there’s no way to make the film look like the Venice image in that low light scenario, as there won’t be enough shadow detail captured on the negative. 

Sorry, I should have read with more detail and yes in this analogy, I agree. 

Well yes, film technology stopped development around 10 years ago. Just imagine of all the money that Sony dumped into sophisticated noise reduction, was dumped into developing a more sensitive film stock? So yea, it's kind of impossible to compare a 2500 ISO camera to a 500 ISO camera. It's impossible to make that comparison. 

A decent looking image at 2500 ISO is only possible due to that noise reduction. So imagine if we stuck to an ISO that is more reasonable, let's say 1500 which is 500T pushed 2 stops. Then we shot Digital and Film together, applied advanced noise reduction to the film, the same NR they use IN the cameras, you'd have a much more comparable image. No it wouldn't be the same on the Venice, but on any single stage ISO imager camera, like an Alexa, it would be damn close. 

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8 minutes ago, Robin R Probyn said:

Tyler  what do you have to say about Rogers Deakins actual comments on digital V,s film..that I just posted .. they very obviously completely contradict, words or sentiments you point blank attribute to Roger Deakins..

I was unable to find the quote I was after and I'm sorry if I can't immediately drop what I'm doing and spend hours watching every video with him so I can track down where I saw it. I think it was the interview that was done in his backyard, but I couldn't find it when I went searching this morning. I've watched probably 10 hours of Roger Deakins talking. If you can paypal me a decent day rate, I will take the day off and find the quote for you. LOL ?

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35 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I was unable to find the quote I was after and I'm sorry if I can't immediately drop what I'm doing and spend hours watching every video with him so I can track down where I saw it. I think it was the interview that was done in his backyard, but I couldn't find it when I went searching this morning. I've watched probably 10 hours of Roger Deakins talking. If you can paypal me a decent day rate, I will take the day off and find the quote for you. LOL ?

But judging from the verified quotes that both AJ and I have posted .. it would seem to be impossible that he had ever said what you "quote"..or least attribute to him..   yet again I believe you have just made this up to dig yourself out of yet another hole.. and so just got yourself deeper when caught out.. and try to make a joke out of it..  again I'll ask.. please stop posting bollocks...  .  someone might tell Roger Deakins .. I read on a long standing well respected DoP website, you say film in most cases looks better than Digital .. and as he obviously didn't ever say that .. he might be pissed off.. and think this website is for clowns.. and that would a detriment to other forum members ..

And Arri might get wind of your fanciful " known issues " with Alexa mini boards and their need to be replaced at least every 3 years .. although totally shown to be complete rubbish by Dom.. with international maintenance records .. that you went suddenly very quite about 

Or that the  Joker should be have been shot on film and would look better.. and aspersions that the DoP didnt really know what he was doing .. even though a forum member actually worked on that film !! and tried very very politely to enlighten you.. you just told him he was wrong and gave him a short lesson on cinematography!!

 

Edited by Robin R Probyn
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40 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

So imagine if we stuck to an ISO that is more reasonable, let's say 1500 which is 500T pushed 2 stops. Then we shot Digital and Film together, applied advanced noise reduction to the film, the same NR they use IN the cameras, you'd have a much more comparable image.

And what would be the point of going through this contorted exercise? 

We are not talking about ‘what if digital ISOs above 1500 didn’t exist?’ or ‘what if Kodak developed a new 2000 ASA film stock?’ We are talking about our currently available choices as they exist today. 

The fact is that right now, in the current state of things, modern digital cameras can make pictures in low-light scenarios that are not possible with motion picture film. This alone justifies their use.  

Our job as cinematographers is to make images with the tools at hand, according to our own tastes. What you are attempting to do is to impose your taste on everyone else by trying to push film on people who simply don’t want it. It’s rude and irritating, and I wish you would stop. And I’m saying this as someone who loves shooting on film and watching projected film.

Can we just let people like what they like, and leave them to it?

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9 minutes ago, Robin R Probyn said:

I believe you have just made this up to dig yourself out of yet another hole.. and so just got yourself deeper when caught out.. and try to make a joke out of it..  

First off, I didn't quote anyone. There were no quotation marks, there was no link, there was nothing to identify it as being a statement and interpretation made by anyone but myself. 

Second, I have been reading and studying him since I was a kid. When most kids were out playing sports, I was reading American Cinematographer and watching the classic films, studying technique.  I have a good understanding of what he likes based on those readings. My readings were mostly prior to his full time switch to digital of that helps understanding where it could have come from.  

Third,  I have no reason to lie, none at all. 

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12 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

First off, I didn't quote anyone. There were no quotation marks, there was no link, there was nothing to identify it as being a statement and interpretation made by anyone but myself. 

Second, I have been reading and studying him since I was a kid. When most kids were out playing sports, I was reading American Cinematographer and watching the classic films, studying technique.  I have a good understanding of what he likes based on those readings. My readings were mostly prior to his full time switch to digital of that helps understanding where it could have come from.  

Third,  I have no reason to lie, none at all. 

But just a few posts  before you said you couldn't find the quote .. "I was unable to find the quote " and that it was an interview in his back yard .. so that seems to again contradict what you are now saying ,that it wasn't a quote .. but a few minutes ago you said it was a quote but you would need time to find it..    your digging that hole again.. if it was just your interpretation of something that he hadn't actually said.. whats the need to find the quote..?   as I suspected, its just words you have conjured up out of no where and attributed to Roger Deakins.. I think that could be illegal .. not only not based on any truth .. but actually the opposite to what he has actually been quoted as saying..    and what of the Alexa Mini boards .. ??   did you ever acknowledge to Dom that you were totally wrong .. ?  

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2 minutes ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

Our job as cinematographers is to make images with the tools at hand, according to our own tastes. What you are attempting to do is to impose your taste on everyone else by trying to push film on people who simply don’t want it. It’s rude and irritating, and I wish you would stop. And I’m saying this as someone who loves shooting on film and watching projected film.

I'm sorry you think I'm pushing film onto people. 

My job as a cinematographer is to take the directors concepts and turn them into reality. Since most movies have been shot on film, it's just natural for them to have film references. So why wouldn't I shoot film? My taste in format, should have nothing to do with it. If someone has the money to make something on film based on the look they like, then we'll do it. I'm not going to talk them out of it because I prefer digital. 

Let me tell you what bothers me. I'm tired of hearing stories about directors who always work on film, being manipulated by cinematographers into shooting digital. Lots of "we can't do that", which is complete utter bullshit in my opinion. Now that all cinematographers are up to speed on digital of various kinds, all of them want to continue shooting it and what's going to happen is that more and more will stop shooting film. This will have a negative impact on our choices as artists. We need big shows like Joker to be shot on film because it's those shows that keep Kodak in business. I look at the big picture and I want our choices as cinematographers to expand, not decrease. If people like me don't exist, it would have been long gone years ago. 

So I'm sorry if you think I'm being rude and irritating, you have the right to ignore my posts. 

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10 minutes ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

You can shoot whatever format you like on your own projects. I just don’t know why you feel the need to tell guys like Roger Deakins or Lawrence Sher what they should be shooting on. Maybe you can enlighten me? 

It's not the cinematographers project, it's the directors project. 

Imagine this... you're the director. You hire a cinematographer for your job, assuming you'd be using X equipment because you're familiar with it and you like what it does. The CInematographer comes in and guilt trips you into changing your mind because they don't like X equipment, they like Y equipment. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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10 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Right, I couldn't find where he talked about his love for film. So I couldn't make a direct quote for you. 

But hang on.. you didn't say .." I think Roger Deakins prefers film to digital ,or I think Roger Deakins loves film.." I think he said that many years ago.. you said...".even Roger Deakins says film looks better than digital  in most cases ".. thats quite concise ,its not vague..  its a clear statement you attribute to Roger Deakins.. this is not your opinion of what Roger Deakins might say.. you either made it up or you have a clear memory of him saying that that you read or hear.. even my quotes he says he loves film.. but goes on to say he prefers digital .. and the exact opposite of what say he said..  

And what about the Alexa mini "known Issues " with power boards after 3-4 years .. no evidence yet again.. but unluckily for you there is a member who has global maintenance  records ,which proved you to be just making it all up.. and rental companies ditching their Alexis left right and centre .. its just not true.. you made it up.. as with Deakins quotes and god knows what else claims you have made over the years .. 

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14 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It's not the cinematographers project, it's the directors project. 

Imagine this... you're the director. You hire a cinematographer for your job, assuming you'd be using X equipment because you're familiar with it and you like what it does. The CInematographer comes in and guilt trips you into changing your mind because they don't like X equipment, they like Y equipment. 

Ok. I agree, but I don’t see what this has to do with my question. 

Are you really suggesting that Roger Deakins and Lawrence Sher are ‘guilt-tripping’ their directors into shooting digital, when they really wanted to shoot on film? Seriously?

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1 hour ago, Robin R Probyn said:

But hang on.. you didn't say .." I think Roger Deakins prefers film to digital ,or I think Roger Deakins loves film.." I think he said that many years ago.. you said...".even Roger Deakins says film looks better than digital  in most cases ".. thats quite concise ,its not vague..  its a clear statement you attribute to Roger Deakins.. this is not your opinion of what Roger Deakins might say.. you either made it up or you have a clear memory of him saying that that you read or hear.. even my quotes he says he loves film.. but goes on to say he prefers digital .. and the exact opposite of what say he said..  

And what about the Alexa mini "known Issues " with power boards after 3-4 years .. no evidence yet again.. but unluckily for you there is a member who has global maintenance  records ,which proved you to be just making it all up.. and rental companies ditching their Alexis left right and centre .. its just not true.. you made it up.. as with Deakins quotes and god knows what else claims you have made over the years .. 

 

Im only hearing crickets Tyler .....   Deakins says film is better than Digital..  Alexa mini boards have known problems that manifest themselves 3 years in and the camera needs to be ditched along with the other Alexa,s for good measure.". known issues ".. is not an opinion..or experience .. by the very words .. its a problem that is well known within the film industry .. there must be alot of evidence on this topic as it would be a pretty major blow to Arri,s rep..   tick tock.. 

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4 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

90% of your post have zero facts. Just opinion based on experiences.  

My opinions, Tyler, are always quite clearly stated as such. I don’t indulge in making appeals to authority by fabricating quotes and attributing them to famous cinematographers. I don’t make up stories about faulty equipment and pretend that ‘many people’ have told me about ‘known issues’. I don’t claim to have more experience than I actually do, and I certainly don’t have the arrogance to tell award winning ASC members how to shoot their movies.

All that crap might play well at your local film society, but in the real world, people know better.

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28 minutes ago, Robin R Probyn said:

 

The problem is the Walter Mitty posts get annoying and new members have in the past actually believed some of them..as they are invariably couched as fact ,"know issues" posted by an experienced "Hollywood" DP/Director/Editor/Writer/ Producer ..making "feature films ".. I mean take your pick which department .. it does everyone a disservice ..  I get there are obviously some issues going on here. . but still maybe its time someone actually raised a red flag here ..

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30 minutes ago, Robin R Probyn said:

.. the Walter Mitty posts ...

And the projector sprockets went ta-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa in the darkened room, as Tyler took a long, slow draw on his Havana cigar. And then the door swung open with a bang, shuddering on its hinges. Light filled the room. In walked Robin, wearing a fedora and a crinkled raincoat. Dom followed at his heels, a large calibre gun in his hand ..... the look on their faces was grim. Tyler shut down the projector and it rattled to a halt. Someone flicked on a lamp. Swirls and motes of dust circled in the beam of light ...

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4 minutes ago, Jon O'Brien said:

And the projector sprockets went ta-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa in the darkened room, as Tyler took a long, slow draw on his Havana cigar. And then the door swung open with a bang, shuddering on its hinges. Light filled the room. In walked Robin, wearing a fedora and a crinkled raincoat. Dom followed at his heels, a large calibre gun in his hand ..... the look on their faces was grim. Tyler shut down the projector and it rattled to a halt. Someone flicked on a lamp. Swirls and motes of dust circled in the beam of light ...

........revealing the hole in the floorboards through which, moments earlier, carried by the Sisyphean weight of his wallet, the sound recordist had crashed into the Stygian gloom of the edit suite.

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1 minute ago, Jon O'Brien said:

And the projector sprockets went ta-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa in the darkened room, as Tyler took a long, slow draw on his Havana cigar. And then the door swung open with a bang, shuddering on its hinges. Light filled the room. In walked Robin, wearing a fedora and a crinkled raincoat. Dom followed at his heels, a large calibre gun in his hand ..... the look on their faces was grim. Tyler shut down the projector and it rattled to a halt. Someone flicked on a lamp. Swirls and motes of dust circled in the beam of light ...

"so wade ya know.. its Sprocket Holes Purcell. " .. .. cut to Tyler reaching for his BM pocket camera under the table. digital being g the last resort... cut to night ext ..  Sunset Boulevard.. a single shot rings out in the neon night .. sound of film flapping on the projector spool.. the lights of Santa Monica slowly fade and de focus .. roll credits .. 

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I can't comment on any of the 'arguments' here but at 53 years of age I can only state the obvious........if there were no advocates for film (celluloid) then we would all be forced to use digital whether we like it or not......and it would be like on youtube...where everything looks like its been shot by the same person and edited by the same person.....ironically we all would love to shoot big film on a dream project (the original point of the thread).....me? I'm no cinematographer and no DP but I choose to ONLY shoot moving images on film for my paid and personal projects.....I am literally willing to earn less, shoot film and feel like I have achieved something and love the look of...obv as well cos I come from the darkroom and I have used a light metre always so its where I am comfortable.......long live my Aaton XTR XC (no video tap, no film counter) and long live my beloved 16mm film!

Edited by Stephen Perera
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I wonder how many people would jump out of an window if Mr. Deakins say so…

However… for those who didn´t participate at the cameraimage these days… the opinion of some here to declare film as dead is obsolete ... the rising numbers the past 3 years actually are the opposite. Film is coming back big time.

https://petapixel.com/2019/11/08/surprise-kodaks-film-business-grew-21-year-over-year/?fbclid=IwAR1zwBbOShSvgSz73j6v5FN_rPef-k6Qm2dY8fOatdeu7sNY11O5AD9-BXg

Saying this the problems Mr. Deakins had at hail ceasar are also gone, over the last 3 years many labs re-open and you get every Kodak stock immediately when needed again in almost every country. (I myself had no problems with it recently in Europe, Thailand & China). So shooting on Film is not a Problem anymore like it was in 2015.

Same with Filmcameras, many Rentals upgraded their cameras with HD Video assists recently. And i know 2 Series for a Major "4K" Streaming Platform who shoots on Film right now.

I also would prefer Film. I don´t know any digital camera which can handle Highlites & Highkey as nice as Film does. All the Colorists i work with prefer Film… at Company3 & at the Mill… these Guys who handles Alexa, Sony & Red Colors on a daily basis.

I shoot most daily Commercial Jobs digital, but if i have the Choice… Film… 

And b.t.w. i had more **(obscenity removed)**Ups & Issues with Alexas and Reds as with any Lab, Lightleak or Loader so far…

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