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Zoom in or move in?


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Zooms are great, but you can't use them all the time. They only work in certain situations. 

Push-in's or Pull-out's, can work nearly all the time. A slow creep is a wonderful way to shoot. 

I'm a big fan of camera movement and prefer dolly's and steadicam's over lock down's with zooms.

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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Was it the 70's when Zooms were used more frequently in movies? It is never good to generalize but to me zooms feel somehow dated. Which is why I would use them if I was to tell a story set in that era.

 

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My favorite camera moves to do are slow push-ins and pull-outs, or tracking with an actor to carry them into a new frame, if it’s for a story purpose. I really dislike thoughtless unmotivated camera movement, like those B-Camera CU angles where the director wants you to slide back and forth the whole time ‘to add interest.’

But I do also love operating a long zoom lens on a fluid head with a Microforce zoom control. For example, I operated the raking CU ‘food porn’ camera on this show: 

The brief was to keep the shots as locked as possible (i.e. use our 12:1 zooms as variable primes), hold on the actions, and to keep the pan speeds super slow and smooth, even if it meant letting Chef Keller leave the frame. They also wanted us to frame wider so they could re-frame in post. 

What I quickly learned was that if I didn’t keep feathering the zoom in and out constantly, there was no way to keep up with Chef and give the director and DP what they asked for. He’s very quick and efficient in the kitchen, and does not like to wait around.

I ended up operating rock-n-roll style, standing on the dolly almost at top floor, with the Microforce in the left hand where the follow focus would normally be, right hand on the back of the camera, waving the dolly grip to push me to set positions on the track depending on where Chef was at the table. I would start pushing in as soon as he landed in a spot, and pulling out as I anticipated him finishing a task and moving on to something else. I had to get way up high to see into tall cooking pots, and boom all the way down for pan frying and plating to get the backlit steam on the plates. For plating, I often pushed into the 250-275mm range and would pan left/right to reveal the plates. As I got more confident and into the flow, I ended up on longer focal lengths and zooming more. My 1st AC did an amazing job keeping it all sharp.

The director and DP were very happy with the shots, so I guess I hid the zooms pretty well. But the experience made me realize why Ridley Scott loves zooms and why ‘he can’t stop touching’ the zoom ring when he operates, as his DP John Mathieson has said before. There are a lot of visual possibilities when you operate that way, especially for inserts and raking camera angles where you can tilt down and pickup cutaways and details. So I think that zooms are not just for period movies! ?

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13 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Your work looks pleasing but the cut pace destroyed it all. If the vegetables may be chopped to short pieces, a movie is something different. Someone must have wanted to take too much into it.

It’s just a trailer, the Masterclass video lessons are much longer pieces.

Also, I was just one of five camera operators on this shoot, so other than panning, tilting, and zooming, I had zero input into the creative aspect. ?

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4 hours ago, Robin R Probyn said:

Some shoots are classed as.. PTI.. (Pan,Tilt and Invoice )...   ? 

Lol, this one was not one of those. Very talented DP and crew, lots of care taken all around. Plus the chance to work in close proximity with one of the best chefs in the world. It was a great pleasure and honor to come to work each day.

But yes, I do my fair share of the other kind too... ?

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On 11/10/2019 at 10:15 AM, Robin R Probyn said:

I think small motivated  zooms can work very well if it suits the film .. . especially hand held.. Barry Ackroyd BSC does this alot.. have a look at, The Hurt Locker.. The Big Short.. Captain Philips.. the last Bourne film..   its pretty much his signature move .. 

I do like the Barry Ackroyd twitchy zooms, more about added energy to the frame then a "move" per se. 

I used to do a bit of multi-cam ped work, mastering the zoom on those productions was the key to success. Often you have to use a combination of Zoom + Move - to get the shots quickly enough on a live production. The really good operators could transition from a push in to a zoom in on the same shot so smoothly you can't spot the difference. Also on multi-cam you can't always put the camera in the "Best" position because of straying into other cameras shot - so your typically working the zoom much harder. 

I use zooms less in my own work now, because generally primes look better and it's not cost effective to carry both. I don't want to spend budget on both zoom + primes (its either or)  and 35mm  Zoom's tend to be big and heavy. It's easier to be mobile with a small prime. So even if I want a cheeky zoom I won't have a lens to do it. Also at a pinch on a 4K camera - I can add it in post

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1 hour ago, Phil Connolly said:

Often you have to use a combination of Zoom + Move - to get the shots quickly enough on a live production. The really good operators could transition from a push in to a zoom in on the same shot so smoothly you can't spot the difference.

I’ve found one of the best ways to hide a zoom is to start a move with a pan or track first. I don’t know how those ENG guys do such smooth zooms with those twitchy servo zoom controllers, I find it impossible to feather the start on those things like I can with a Microforce - you push and it does nothing... until it does. I think many of the best camera operators in the business work in live broadcast. 

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I think this choice is usually made because... all things are not equal ?

So, you would need to describe your situation and the story you're trying to tell.

On a practical level, especially now that we're often using quite small and lightweight cameras, changing from a small prime lens to large zoom lens has become a little bit time consuming.  Bigger baseplate, bigger matte box, rebalancing everything.

On the other hand, once a zoom is on the camera, it's certainly faster to just zoom rather than lay dolly tracks... if it's a zoom effect that you'd like.

On my last 3 movies, I haven't carried a zoom lens at all.  On the last picture, we did actually have a big optimo zoom that the director already owned.  But, it proved, in camera prep, so time consuming to switch from the primes to the zoom, that I never considered actually using it.  And it was quite difficult to find all the parts at the rental house to support the zoom on the Alexa Mini.  It would have been much more practical to mount the lens on the tripod and just hang the camera body off the back of the lens!  But, there was no tripod mount ring available, or even ever made, for this lens.  So, for all practical reasons, I would have needed a dedicated camera body and hardware pre rigged to use the zoom.  And that made the "free" zoom pretty expensive ?

And, another time factor:  By using a prime lens set up, we were able to configure the camera to change from dolly/tripod to Steadicam or hand held in about 60 seconds.  So "moving camera" it was!

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2 hours ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

I’ve found one of the best ways to hide a zoom is to start a move with a pan or track first. I don’t know how those ENG guys do such smooth zooms with those twitchy servo zoom controllers, I find it impossible to feather the start on those things like I can with a Microforce - you push and it does nothing... until it does. I think many of the best camera operators in the business work in live broadcast. 

Indeed I've never been able to get my zooms to look that good on a servo

I directed a Multi-cam music  show at the NFTS and they hired a team of retired BBC ents cameramen. So they proabably had a combined experience of 300 years. The operating was scary good - zooms and moves transitioning into each other. this is also while booming up and down on the Ped and pulling your own focus. At the high level broadcast operating is amazing - and when your live your having to hold concentration for hours at a time and offering perfect shots the whole time.

I have upmost respect for live TV guys. I dont have the concentration for live multi-cam - too nerve wracking

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2 hours ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

I’ve found one of the best ways to hide a zoom is to start a move with a pan or track first. I don’t know how those ENG guys do such smooth zooms with those twitchy servo zoom controllers, I find it impossible to feather the start on those things like I can with a Microforce - you push and it does nothing... until it does. I think many of the best camera operators in the business work in live broadcast. 

Indeed I've never been able to get my zooms to look that good on a servo

I directed a Multi-cam music  show at the NFTS and they hired a team of retired BBC ents cameramen. So they proabably had a combined experience of 300 years. The operating was scary good - zooms and moves transitioning into each other. this is also while booming up and down on the Ped and pulling your own focus. At the high level broadcast operating is amazing - and when your live your having to hold concentration for hours at a time and offering perfect shots the whole time.

I have upmost respect for live TV guys. It's really challenging - the concentration factor is a big part of it. 

 

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With this ENG camera,s you often just had the one on zoom on all the time ..for years !.. and you just got really used to the servo.. you could also dial in the speed... the $25,000 + ⅔ inch zooms had very good servo.s... you could really feather them to within a inch of their lives.. it wasn't that difficult TBH..  

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I’m referring to the remote servo zoom controller that you clamp to the tripod handle and plugs into the lens. Maybe I’ve just always used a cheap one and the more expensive ones are better? Here’s the one I’m used to.

image.jpeg.89eb8e77bf54643b59092fbd53c1c211.jpeg

The zoom rocker has so much play before you hit the start point that I find it really difficult to feather stop/start unless I crank the speed way down which makes it useless for everything else. If you want to ease in on the lens, you have to travel a fair bit on the rocker and hold it there, which requires more effort and concentration than just ‘push to go.’

Whereas on a Microforce, when you put pressure on the thumb controller, it moves the motor immediately and is very pressure sensitive. I also like that the zoom function is Up/Down, rather than Left/Right. Much easier to remember that ‘zoom in is forward’ and ‘zoom out is back’ and less travel on the thumb knuckle joint to boot. I’m sure I would get used to the other system over time, but to me the Microforce system is far superior.

Of course, you do have to worry about the motor getting disengaged with the Microforce since it’s external to the lens. I like that it’s smaller and can easily be remounted for left hand operation. This allows me to operate closer to the center of mass and ‘be one with the camera’ rather than operate from behind the camera. Just personal preference.

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Hi Sat .. sorry yes I wasn't replying directly to you sir.. more to Phil.. and in general.. with hand held using the servo on the zoom..  Ive only  used these pan bar mounted servo,s...  a very few times ..and yes didnt  like them at all..   

Edited by Robin R Probyn
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