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Best way to use 16mm 100ft roll in 400ft magazine?


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Apologizes if this is a stupid question, but I've only used Bolex and Arriflex cameras and loaded the film directly into the camera. I'm going to be shooting with a Aaton Xtera Super 16mm that comes with 400 ft magazines, but not sure if I can use the 100 ft rolls or if I should just wait to buy a 400ft. Is it just the same loading/unloading process, but stop when the counter hits 100ft, instead of 400ft? Also I've edited on 16mm flatbeds before and I know you can splice together 16mm film, but because the film will be negative, is that not a good idea? Or too risky because of the perfs need to be lined up perfectly?  

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The Arri SR and Aaton cameras can all take 100ft daylight spools for film supply. On the SR's they have a removable core hub by the push of a button in the center. On the Aaton's, the core hub requires a screw driver from the side to remove. 

The problem is, it comes off the daylight spool and onto a core, so you still need cores and a can to put the film into with a black bag for protection. Sadly film on a core won't quite fit into a 100ft daylight box, it gets close, but alas it won't. So that issue of dealing with daylight spools after you shoot, can be a deal breaker for 100ft spools on non-100ft spool cameras. 

No you can't project negative, it's a reversed image anyway. You need to either shoot in a positive format (ektachrome or B&W reversal) or make a print of your 16mm negative for projection. I suggest the latter because working with your original camera media on a flatbed can lead to damage. 

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Ok thanks for letting me know so quickly. I have a cheap 16mm camera so I guess I'll just pair that with the 100ft and use the 400 with the 400 mags.

What I meant regarding the splicing was not projecting, but if I could just take 4 100' rolls and splice them together to make it 400. But with what you said about the right core I don't think that it's possible.  

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Just find an empty 100' spool to start and then keep swapping over the empty spool from the feed side. Splicing camera neg for a 16mm camera sounds risky. Not to do with the core size, just the idea of the splice going through the gate and the drive sprocket  Just use the 100' loads in whatever mags you have.

Note that spools are often a bit noisier, especially older ones that are a bit missaligned. Get some junk stock and try it all beforehand.

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I have never heard anyone splicing camera negative pieces together to shoot a longer roll in camera. The splice could create lots of problems in the gate I think but additionally the film lab would probably be very annoyed if giving them a tape spliced roll to develop. Basically they would probably need to search the entire roll through by hand in the dark and replace all the splices with more sturdy ones so that they would not risk them breaking in the machines and ruining the whole developing batch. 

If you are shooting sync sound the daylight spools have the disadvantage of potentially making additional noise from the metal flanges. for MOS footage they would be fine

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2 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

I have never heard anyone splicing camera negative pieces together to shoot a longer roll in camera. The splice could create lots of problems in the gate I think but additionally the film lab would probably be very annoyed if giving them a tape spliced roll to develop. Basically they would probably need to search the entire roll through by hand in the dark and replace all the splices with more sturdy ones so that they would not risk them breaking in the machines and ruining the whole developing batch. 

If you are shooting sync sound the daylight spools have the disadvantage of potentially making additional noise from the metal flanges. for MOS footage they would be fine

+1 to running tape-spliced film. The camera might object and lose a loop, but lab splices are usually made with two beefy metal staples or heavy-duty waterproof tape for the very reason that splicing tape couldn't be trusted to survive at high temperatures in rather unpleasant chemicals.

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9 hours ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

@ Mr Purcell...Well that's disapointing. Does that mean you can't put an Arri collapsable core on a 16mm Aaton. I wonder why Beauviala would do that...

I personally don't like collapsable cores, so I haven't tried. But the pickup side has a slipping clutch mechanism that's built into the core holder, so if you removed the core holder, it would be impossible for the camera to take up film because the clutch would be missing. 😞

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On 11/13/2019 at 4:19 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

The Arri SR and Aaton cameras can all take 100ft daylight spools for film supply. On the SR's they have a removable core hub by the push of a button in the center. On the Aaton's, the core hub requires a screw driver from the side to remove. 

The problem is, it comes off the daylight spool and onto a core, so you still need cores and a can to put the film into with a black bag for protection. Sadly film on a core won't quite fit into a 100ft daylight box, it gets close, but alas it won't. So that issue of dealing with daylight spools after you shoot, can be a deal breaker for 100ft spools on non-100ft spool cameras. 

No you can't project negative, it's a reversed image anyway. You need to either shoot in a positive format (ektachrome or B&W reversal) or make a print of your 16mm negative for projection. I suggest the latter because working with your original camera media on a flatbed can lead to damage. 

Tyler, you say "sadly film on a core won't fit into a 100ft daylight box, it gets close, but alas it won't"

Sorry but this is incorrect.....I have shot 12 seperate rolls of 100ft Kodak Vision 3 since I got my Aaton XTR XC and I have placed each rolled up film on its core into the same black box they came in every single time.....it even has a few mm of 'play'....what I do is put the film into the box as is......don't worry about it hitting the plastic cos the 'exposed' roll is the tail end so nothing will get ruined......and then I seal the box via the 'click-on' lid with mag tape and then place it all into a small 'black bag' for another layer of light-proof(ness) and off to Cinelab London they all go.....

This is, of course, my way of doing things.....I don't re-use the white plastic film holder for example......I just put the exposed rolled up film straight back into the box as is

Edited by Stephen Perera
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1 hour ago, Stephen Perera said:

Tyler, you say "sadly film on a core won't fit into a 100ft daylight box, it gets close, but alas it won't"

Sorry but this is incorrect.....I have shot 12 seperate rolls of 100ft Kodak Vision 3 since I got my Aaton XTR XC and I have placed each rolled up film on its core into the same black box they came in every single time.....it even has a few mm of 'play'....what I do is put the film into the box as is......don't worry about it hitting the plastic cos the 'exposed' roll is the tail end so nothing will get ruined......and then I seal the box via the 'click-on' lid with mag tape and then place it all into a small 'black bag' for another layer of light-proof(ness) and off to Cinelab London they all go.....

This is, of course, my way of doing things.....I don't re-use the white plastic film holder for example......I just put the exposed rolled up film straight back into the box as is

This is useful to know, but the box isn't intended to be lightproof because it's not intended to take a core. Presumably your lab has been warned in advance, because a lab would not normally expect to open the box in darkness.

Edited by Mark Dunn
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Yeah Cinelab London know how I send stuff by now...Its obvious I'm trying to light seal it when they see the mag tape all over it hahaha......BUT GOOD THING you've said this Mark....next time I WILL let them know how I just put the film in just in case!!!......and yes the roll fits in perfectly and as i said with a bit of play...a few mm all over...it can 'rattle' a bit....but of course will not affect the film.....the box is 100% lightproof when you seal the lid of course....its all solid hard plastic

Edited by Stephen Perera
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3 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

the box is 100% lightproof when you seal the lid of course....its all solid hard plastic

I know those boxes. They don't have a proper light trap and it would be all too easy for the top to pop open if mishandled. You've worked this through but it needs to be pointed out to a newcomer that extra precautions are needed.

If there were space one could bag the film inside the box as well, but I suspect there isn't.

BTW OP, if you're not using Kodak but another brand that still puts 100' spools in cans, 100' on a core definitely won't go in one of those. The core is fully 2cm. bigger than the daylight spool centre.

Edited by Mark Dunn
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12 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

I have placed each rolled up film on its core into the same black box they came in every single time.....it even has a few mm of 'play'....what I do is put the film into the box as is......don't worry about it hitting the plastic cos the 'exposed' roll is the tail end so nothing will get ruined......and then I seal the box via the 'click-on' lid with mag tape and then place it all into a small 'black bag' for another layer of light-proof(ness) and off to Cinelab London they all go.....

These are the 110ft Kodak daylight spools that are filled to the absolute max the metal spool can handle? 

From my experience, when you go to close the lid, it bulges the top slightly. When you snap it, you can see a bump in the lid and there is a small crack on the sides because the plastic doesn't want to bend into the shape well. I solved this many a time by removing the core and it fit perfectly. However with the core, I was always scared of that bump and how much force I was putting on that little tiny latch. You'd have to tape the living crap out of it with black gaf tape. What happens is that, at the lab, they may struggle to get the tape off in the darkroom, so the box may just pop open suddenly if they aren't careful. 

What I generally do with daylight spools is put them into a 1000ft 35mm can with a standard black bag for that format. I think it fits 6? I've never filled one up, it may hold more. Then you're handing the lab what they know is cored material. 

I'd be more than happy to send you a package with 1000ft can's, bags and cores if ya want. So if you shoot daylight spools again, you've got a better solution. 

 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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14 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

These are the 110ft Kodak daylight spools that are filled to the absolute max the metal spool can handle? 

From my experience, when you go to close the lid, it bulges the top slightly. When you snap it, you can see a bump in the lid and there is a small crack on the sides because the plastic doesn't want to bend into the shape well. I solved this many a time by removing the core and it fit perfectly. However with the core, I was always scared of that bump and how much force I was putting on that little tiny latch. You'd have to tape the living crap out of it with black gaf tape. What happens is that, at the lab, they may struggle to get the tape off in the darkroom, so the box may just pop open suddenly if they aren't careful. 

What I generally do with daylight spools is put them into a 1000ft 35mm can with a standard black bag for that format. I think it fits 6? I've never filled one up, it may hold more. Then you're handing the lab what they know is cored material. 

I'd be more than happy to send you a package with 1000ft can's, bags and cores if ya want. So if you shoot daylight spools again, you've got a better solution. 

 

Hey Tyler would welcome anything to do with film coming my way!!!!

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7 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

Hey Tyler would welcome anything to do with film coming my way!!!!

Lets chat via PM. I got a lot of shit I need to get rid of hahah 😛

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  • 6 months later...

Hi all, 

I just tried this on the Aaton XTR and got a ghosting effect.  Could this have to do with the tension difference between the 100 foot spool on the feed and the 400 foot core on the take up?  If so, what is the best way to avoid this ghosting problem?

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  • 8 months later...

Hey all, digging this thread up because I'm shooting a short test on the Aaton with 100' daylight spools - went in today to make sure the spools would fit on the feed side and it all seemed to work ok (we did have some issues with things not winding properly on the take-up side and the film bunching up), but I also note that the daylight spool fits over the mechanism fine, but nothing really locks it down as it would with a core.  Is this really the case, or did I miss something critical?  

Any help would be appreciated!  Thanks everyone

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8 hours ago, Andrew Trost said:

I also note that the daylight spool fits over the mechanism fine, but nothing really locks it down as it would with a core.  Is this really the case, or did I miss something critical?  

Yes this is normal. Aaton never really designed the camera to work with daylight spools. They just figured, why not have the core come out incase there was an emergency and someone needed to use one daylight spool. The spool rattles around in there and can damage the little metal or plastic film guides. For sure not something I would do on a regular basis. Fine for the once a year emergency single roll, but far better to run cores. 

One trick to prevent the film bunching up on the take up side is to fold the tip of the film over and push it into the slot on the core. Then spin it 5 times around, BEFORE threading the sprockets and finding your loop size (14 perf's) Make sure the little lock button is pushed on top of the core holder and you're good to go! 

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9 hours ago, Andrew Trost said:

Hey all, digging this thread up because I'm shooting a short test on the Aaton with 100' daylight spools - went in today to make sure the spools would fit on the feed side and it all seemed to work ok (we did have some issues with things not winding properly on the take-up side and the film bunching up), but I also note that the daylight spool fits over the mechanism fine, but nothing really locks it down as it would with a core.  Is this really the case, or did I miss something critical?  

Any help would be appreciated!  Thanks everyone

In my experience no problem with 100ft spools although as Tyler says they are 'noisier' inside the magazine......

........and yes fold the tip of the end of the film and push it into the slot on the core on the 'take-up' side of the magazine.

Further to this I always apply saliva with my finger to the surface of the film about half a core's length to give it a bit of an adhesive as you wind film onto it. This will ensure it doesn't all fly off and yes don't be modest with the 5 times round as Tyler says...you will have your own 'feel' for what's right for you.....

Important: for me 14 frames showing is how my camera is happiest....NOT 15

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