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Marco Leoncino

400ft spool -> 100ft spool

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Dear all,

 

a friend of mine offered to give me 400ft of 16 mm film stock. I must spool it down to 100ft spools to use it in my camera.

I have a darkroom equipped with the winders you can find below:

s-l1600.jpg.4a8cad83a113cc8f5f0582141bb55e35.jpg

 

2134824859_s-l1600(1).jpg.d12725f4e11a636296e22d7fb3951d93.jpg

 

I was thinking that a single "passage from the larger spool to the smaller would be sufficient. But now, thinking about it, I think that this is not correct.

I am totally confused how shall I do that and since I don´t want to waste meterial, I am asking you.

Can you suggest me a tutorial?

 

 

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you will need to spool from 400ft on core B-wind EI roll to 100ft B-wind EI daylight spools. I assume that is a 16mm winder? it should have square center axles where you can fit daylight spools. For attaching a core to it you will need a core adapter like the ones in Arri SR magazines. 

You will need to get the perforations, the winding and the emulsion on the correct side so you will need to wind it two times. If you attach the 400ft on core to the left, you can wind either all of it to the right side or some specified amount of it if you want. Then remove the left side core and the adapter and attach a daylight spool there and wind back to the left side the amount you want. You may want to make a measuring tool which you can use in the dark which tells you where the outer edge of the film should be on the daylight spool to have 100ft there.

You need to wind either cross-cross OR straight-straight from spool to spool so that you will maintain the correct B-wind and emulsion in. 

if using 2R films you could get by with single passage if you don't mind the keykode numbers running in the wrong direction but with normal single side perforated film you will need 2 passes to get it right

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you will want to avoid static discharge when spooling down camera negatives in dark. The static flashes will make very weird marks on the film resembling blue streaky flashes coming from the film edge to the picture area. So you may not want to use the kind of gloves which create large amounts of static (for example nitrile gloves have been bad in my tests) and will want to use the rewinder friction adjustments instead or using a hand directly on the film spool to maintain the desired friction when spooling down.

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Remember you get a loading allowance for each daylight spool(I believe it's about 3' each end) , but only one for the 400' core. So unless you can measure accurately, one of your spools may be about 20' short.

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3 hours ago, aapo lettinen said:

you will want to avoid static discharge when spooling down camera negatives in dark. The static flashes will make very weird marks on the film resembling blue streaky flashes coming from the film edge to the picture area. So you may not want to use the kind of gloves which create large amounts of static (for example nitrile gloves have been bad in my tests) and will want to use the rewinder friction adjustments instead or using a hand directly on the film spool to maintain the desired friction when spooling down.

Yea, you wouldn't want to use plastic reels, they may build up static charge where the metal ones don't. I don't know how you'll break down spools without split reels and daylight spools. 

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I meant that one would want to use friction adjustment knob INSTEAD OF  using a hand directly on the film roll. Sorry for the typo :) 

Personally I often split directly to 100ft daylight spools and then wind them back to another daylight spools to get the winding correctly. One could also use a metal spool as Tyler mentioned. OR one could wind down to another core using a platter for support on one side. That is a bit trickier but is useful if you want to first wind everything on reverse roll and only then start to split it down.

I prefer leaving every daylight spool a bit short instead of doing one shorter one. You may get couple of feet variance between spools but that is pretty much as accurate you can do at home

 

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I was just wondering how you load 400ft loads without a split reel? 

What I do is rewind the entire load onto another split reel and then load the individual 100ft spools from that load to turn it back into B wind. 

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I second Aapo on using a platter. Worked well for me. It was an aluminum disk with a bobbin screwed onto it, CP, Bolex, can't remember.  This then fits to the little spring loaded detent on the rewind. Much faster and less scratchy feeling than split spools, once you get your fingers in tune. The rewinds need to be lined up right, but that's easy.

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Split reel to start is "safer" as far as avoiding a spill.  but it can be done without. core adaptor is one way.  I also sometimes use 35mm film from 100ft bulk still rolls and so I have saved a 1in 35mm core (square center hole, and 1 inch in diameter) which is what 35mm still film 100ft rolls often comes on.  a movie core with a 1 inch hole will freely spin on that.  the very first time I had to repool movie film I used that mounted on a piece of formica countertop to hold the supply roll.  Not sure how much I risked static. 

A split reel is so much easier to use, if you can get one - mine is a well used on from e-bay.

I have an antique 400ft daylight spool that I use for the first wind. although I keep it in the dark.   then I wind onto the 100ft spools.

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The platter thing is real, not requiring huge skill, at least not back then when all our fingers were used to film.  I haven't done it for 20 years, but maybe it's like riding a bike. Just for any pussies out there that doubt me, this was a one take show. I'm a little slow fitting the film end to the core. 

To be clear, the take up side has a home made platter, as described before. The feed side is a 400' roll that is just sitting on the outside of the spindle. I used this method many times when in a hurry. Never had a problem.

This method was used for Kodak  Plus X rev 7276, telerecording film, VNF 7240, ECN 7276, some Fuji stocks, some B&W 35mm...I never had any observed  problem with scratches or static.

Note that the 35mm cores fit the same bobbins (core adapters) as 16mm cores. 

Don't remember wearing white cotton gloves...Maybe I did once.  Now can't upload, so here is a photo. I'll see what I can do to make video available...

platter rewind 1.jpg

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4 hours ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

Don't remember wearing white cotton gloves...Maybe I did once

I have those cotton gloves somewhere but never use them when handling unexposed negative. they have couple of disadvantages, the first being that they make it more difficult to handle the film ends by feel and the second is that they create some lint and fibres which may go to the film and cause lots of dust and hair problems in camera (at least the gloves I have here) . If using rubber gloves you risk static electricity and/or spreading the talcum powder on you films if the gloves are the type which uses the powder.

One is never touching the actual picture side of the emulsion when spooling down. At least not the area where you actually record the image. The tails may be touched extensively but that does not matter in the end if there is some fingerprints on the tail of the film which is not used for actual image anyway. Depending on how you spool them down (straight-straight OR cross-cross) you will not cause any problems even if testing with bare fingers how much film you have left on a roll because you are then touching the backing of the film, NOT the emulsion side where the fingerprints would show.

The disadvantage of using bare cores and platters is that the film layers may accidentally drop from the side more easily creating a mess. Small pieces of tape will help with this so that you can secure the film whenever needed (like when cutting it in the dark in the middle of the roll, that is one situation where it will accidentally unspool very easily)

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17 hours ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

Risky, here in the states the new film comes very loose on the core. Manhandling it that much can be very risky, especially in the dark when you can't see if it's going to fall off or not. Split reels are very inexpensive on ebay, I have dozens of them of various sizes, including a 400ft one, which is really great for these applications. 

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47 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Risky, here in the states the new film comes very loose on the core. .....

Very interesting if it is fact, but guesswork and inference suggests that this is a Purcellitive Tylerism.

 

47 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Manhandling it that much can be very risky, especially in the dark when you can't see if it's going to fall off or not. Split reels are very inexpensive on ebay, I have dozens of them of various sizes, including a 400ft one, which is really great for these applications. 

It can be risky if you don't know what you are doing. So is crossing the street I suppose. To be fair, I was a bit more cavalier or careless than normal, and out of practice. I thought of filming it in total darkness but I figured no one would then believe me.

I do have some split spool sets, and did commonly use them for respooling. The point of the video was to show that it is possible without them.

 

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7 hours ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

It can be risky if you don't know what you are doing. So is crossing the street I suppose. To be fair, I was a bit more cavalier or careless than normal, and out of practice. I thought of filming it in total darkness but I figured no one would then believe me.

I mean if you're teaching a beginner how to do this, the method you use is not something even someone who breaks down film weekly would ever do. Split reels are inexpensive on ebay and having the right tools, especially when it comes to physically touching raw emulsion, is always important. 

7 hours ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

I do have some split spool sets, and did commonly use them for respooling. The point of the video was to show that it is possible without them.

 

I mean I've broken down film in 400ft magazines before. It's all possible. 

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Hello Michael. Do you mean larger cores or larger rolls? Thinking of the cores as the plastic centres that the roll winds onto. One could usefully refer to the outer diameter, outside diameter (OD).

I had, still have, some old B&W film stock as 2400' rolls. I had to break this down into 100', 200' spools and 400' rolls on cores. My biggest split spool was about 1200',  so the outer part of the 2400' roll was without constraints on the sides.  Worked fine though.

 

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A split spool is a safer, more cautious, less fun way to go. But I think the platter idea could be easily learned by new people. With the platter there is less scraping on the sides. A properly aligned platter,  the film doesn't even need to touch the side of the platter. Film naturally aligns itself on the roll.

I don't think the ideas offered are giving more risk from finger oils on the emulsion. False. 

The idea of respooling with a camera magazine...This is in the opposite direction to what I am referring to. In comparison, it's complicated, slow, engaging with potential tech problems that will be difficult to trace.

As a designer, I object whenever I see someone solving problems by simply adding complexity.  Solutions founded on simplicity are worth any effort.

  

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58 minutes ago, Gregg MacPherson said:

A split spool is a safer, more cautious, less fun way to go. But I think the platter idea could be easily learned by new people. With the platter there is less scraping on the sides. A properly aligned platter,  the film doesn't even need to touch the side of the platter. Film naturally aligns itself on the roll.

But in your video, you physically have to hold the supply reel, IE rubbing the film on your finger to keep it from unspooling. With no way to deliver breaking on the supply roll, if something were to stop it. Ohh I don't know a slight in the tightness of the roll packing (happens all the time when loading a camera with fresh film) and you'd be screwed. I mean rewinding is already risky enough, unless you have a completely dust-free environment. 

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10 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

Risky, here in the states the new film comes very loose on the core. Manhandling it that much can be very risky, especially in the dark when you can't see if it's going to fall off or not. 

What do you mean by it being "loosely winded"? 

I have seen that only once with factory roll and that was an Ilford bulk roll, not Kodak. 

Movie film should be rolled tight from the factory, otherwise it may scratch itself on the feed side when the film layers are slipping against each other. Kodak doing loose rolls regularly would be unbelievable. But for lab rewound stuff it could be possible (that is not factory film though) 

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21 minutes ago, Tyler Purcell said:

But in your video, you physically have to hold the supply reel, IE rubbing the film on your finger to keep it from unspooling. With no way to deliver breaking on the supply roll,...........................unless you have a completely dust-free environment. 

Sorry, but there is an odd disjunction in play here between what is actually known and what might be assumed, inferred, guessed....or heard from others. I think one needs to be clear on these differences. Those who promote confusion between those things may attract extremely adverse reactions. 

The feed roll can be held between the fingers, with the finger tips touching the core, the juncture between thumb and first finger only touching the cell side of the film very rarely, and just on the edge of the film. Actually, that should be quite obvious.

Some people are busy trying to reconstruct the signs of what the universe might be, in order to better fit their own misperceptions. 

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