Derick Crucius Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 I don’t mean to offend anyone or disrespect the legacy of Bolex, but I can’t seem to grasp why it is such a preferred camera over the Beaulieu r16. For one, the r16 doesn’t use a bogus prism that requires special lenses that are ridiculously priced. It also has a brighter viewfinder, is lighter, and can do longer takes without having to attach a bulky and awkward motor. Am I missing something here? Being a bolex owner myself, I am feeling more and more inclined to make the switch to a Beaulieu. I know the Bolex is spring driven, but that can’t be the only selling point. Perhaps someone could shed a bit more light on this who has more experience with an R16? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 I found that the R16 got more emulsion buildup in the gate with the stock I was using, and the gate was hard to clean properly. You can't see in there and get in there as easily. I didn't use these two cameras for the same kinds of things. Having both was better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Dom Jaeger Posted December 12, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted December 12, 2019 I've only worked on a couple of Beaulieu R16s over the years - from that experience and from what people have told me they seem to be OK cameras. I can think of a few reasons Bolexes might be used more though. I think there are many more Bolexes around than R16s, and many more people familiar with servicing Bolexes and access to parts. Like certain other French products, the design is very clever but perhaps not always as reliable or durable as Swiss or German designs. As Greg pointed out, the gate is not as accessible, and the whole interior seems a bit dinky and plastic compared to a Bolex. The custom handgrip battery is a bit of a pain to recell (although admittedly many 16mm cameras have custom on-board batteries). While spring motors only run for a short time per wind and are not very accurate in their speed, the freedom of not having batteries is something of an old-school joy. Almost all the Bolexes I receive for servicing are spring-powered ones. (There are spring-motor Beaulieu R16s too, but they are much rarer than Bolexes). The combination of simplicity (less to go wrong) and yet still packed with features (variable shutter, auto-load, dedicated reverse claw, instant and time-release single frame options, filter slot, etc) makes Bolexes quite attractive to artists and students. The flat base ones in particular are stable and easy to mount, as opposed to the Beaulieu base. High speed C mounts of any flavour tend to be over-priced these days, not just RX ones. You can use normal lenses on a reflex Bolex stopped down to around f/2.8 or beyond without any issues. This old thread talks about some Beaulieu R16 user issues: https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/1426-what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-beaulieu-r-16/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted December 12, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted December 12, 2019 Must not compare directly. The Paillard-Bolex H was developed in 1930-31, the Beaulieu Reflex in 1957, a quarter century had elapsed. Initially it was a spring-drive camera, the electric models are still younger. Something a Beaulieu does not offer is the critical focuser in conjunction with camera rackover. By that you can use any C-mount lens on the H from infinity down to until the object touches the lens. The rotary shutter affords even exposure whereas the Beaulieu up-and-down shutter produces overexposure of the frame towards the upper edge, the bottom of the projected image, and underexposure in the other direction. Not much, but it’s a fact. The Beaulieu have 100 percent light in the reflex finder. I could go on with the comparison I said is a sin, in the end it’s a matter of taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Louis Seguin Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 The body shell of the Beaulieu is very soft metal and deforms rather easily if impacted. On the models with three lens turret, these also can often get deformed. You will be hard pressed to find many Beaulieu cameras given to students in film schools. They wouldn’t last very long. Bolex cameras are used almost universally in beginner classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kovats Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 Well, Derick, you lucked out with some tremendous detailed responses from three experts in the field. I understand the attraction to the Beaulieu but the Bolex is one heavier robust battle ready simpler camera for the masses and inglorious film students. It just works and can be serviced so much easier than the more fragile Beaulieu. Does your Bolex have the 10x or 13x viewfinder? The 13x viewfinder significantly improves the Bolex experience. It's not a lightweight alternative to the spring motor but have you heard of Tobin "digital' motors for the Bolex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derick Crucius Posted December 12, 2019 Author Share Posted December 12, 2019 Thank you all so much for taking the time to give such informative responses. You are right, Nick and I'm sold on keeping my bolex. Unfortunately it is equipped with the 10x viewfinder, but I suppose I could always get it upgraded in the future. It is a Rex 4. As for the motor, I have heard of the tobin motors and they seem to be pretty great. I currently acquired an EM motor, but havent used it on the camera yet. I need to make sure I attach it correctly, it seems pretty straightforward though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 If you are exploring art with single frame, variable shutter, or DIY optical printer, then the Bolex is the camera. The R16, if you take the battery handgrip off is very small and light. Would be a great camera to clamp on an aircraft or racecar. But maybe Dom and Jean-Louis are right, it's more fragile. There was an amazing film made by (or about) Salvador Dali. A small geodetic dome full of cavorting, pretty young people...Dali was there and threw the running camera into the air. Looked very cool. I always thought that you could wrap bubble wrap around an R16 and do that. If the cameras were cheap enough, you could have several waiting. A while ago on the forum I bumped into Dennis Couzin. He had previously made a book on "Optical printing for artists"....He "collected a gallery of pictures of homemade optical printers". Does anyone have that..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 Sorry, when I said R16 I meant the Beaulieu R16... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kovats Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 " "Cine-Technical Papers 1976-1992 by Dennis Couzin" "Notes on Optical Printer Technique" (1983-1987), 32 pages. https://sites.google.com/site/cinetechinfo/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg MacPherson Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Well done Nicholas. Dennis is very bright. I''ll have to dust off my intellect. He mentioned a book to me that he wrote that had photos of all the optical printers built by artist experimenting with film that he had encountered. I don't think the book is in those notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster Colcord Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 There have been some fine films made with the Beaulieu, including the work of Mike Jittlov, aka "The Wizard of Speed and Time". My observation vs. the Bolex is that the ergonomics of the R16 are amazing for handheld work, but quite the opposite for mounting on a tripod and adding a magazine. The tripod mount is under the fat handle and there's not a lot of area to help with stabilization. Add to that the mag seated on the curved top of the camera, at full height the whole thing becomes wobbly. The Bolex at full height is not much better, but at least you've got a flat base with the later models. Additionally, as I understand it, converting the R16 to Super-16 is very difficult. You also can't argue with the track record of the Bolex' claw design (the "trailing claw") and I think the R16 has a very simple claw. That Beaulieu viewfinder is gorgeous to look through, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Thomas Faehrenkemper Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I have them both, the Bolex SBM and the R16 and the 2016, respectively. In most cases I use the Beaulieu, the r16 as well as the 2016. Focusing is a joy, as the finder is bright and brilliant, and picture quality is equal - to my opinion. And the Bolex is a heavy brick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted December 17, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted December 17, 2019 The Mitchell 16 is a heavy brick, not the Paillard-Bolex H. If you say “the Bolex”, I understand this: Simon is niggling because “Bolex” stems from Mr. Bogopolsky who came from the former Ukrainian town Bogopol, Pervomaisk since 1920. Together with Charles Haccius of Geneva he held the trade mark Bolex since 1924. Ernest Paillard & Cie, an entirely other company, bought the whole Bolex business from Messrs. Bogopolsky and Haccius in 1930. Sale of Bolex cameras and projectors (similar to DeVry and Kodascope B) was continued until 1935 and 1936, respectively. The Paillard-Bolex H camera was quite different from the Bolex Auto Cine Cameras. 190 degrees opening angle of a disc shutter vs. 144 degrees of a drum shutter spring-loaded cardioid-cam driven single claw from behind film vs. rigid simple excentric double-side claw from front two sprocket rollers vs. a single one automatic film threading system vs. manual threading clutch allowing disengagement of mainspring for unlimited film transport in both directions vs. forward run only single-frame switchgear for instant and time exposure vs. no such thing speed variation from 8 to 64 fps vs. only 16 fps turret holding up to three interchangeable lenses vs. permanently built-in (1 inch) lens detachable trifocal finder, all parallax eliminated when put on lid vs. parallactic finder both main frame and lid die-cast parts vs. hinged sheet metal door continuous counter working also backwards vs. stepping forward-only counter There are more heavy bricks among the 16mm cameras, I should speak of ETM-P, Arriflex 16 M and BL, Debrie CX and SINMOR, Nord, Auricon Super 1200, Kodak Reflex Special, Tolana, Panaflex-X 16, Fearless 16. Not the H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kovats Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Simon, I am in agreement with the heavier cameras. When did Paillard-Bolex shift their "190 degree shutters" to the current mixtures of 133 (effective?), 144, 180 degree shutters. A tad confusing to keep track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted December 17, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted December 17, 2019 Nicholas, please see here: https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/46459-ye-olde-144-degree-shutter-angle-and-lightmeter-rant/ https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/55725-shutter-angle-on-old-bolex/&do=findComment&comment=454663 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Thomas Faehrenkemper Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Hm. The R16 with battery and a set of Tevidon primes is 2820g, the Bolex Rex 4 with 3 Schneider primes without electric motor is 3400 g. Electrically driven it will be more than 5000g... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted December 17, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted December 17, 2019 Beaulieu is lighter, no doubt, but also more delicate. Besides that, the H is 26 years older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Thomas Faehrenkemper Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Simon, please don't misunderstand me, the Bolex is a mechanical masterpiece and its versatility is really outstanding, but in most cases I go with my Beaulieu. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Simon Wyss Posted December 18, 2019 Premium Member Share Posted December 18, 2019 Oh, do so, the patient wants to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derick Crucius Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 I think both cameras are beautiful and cater to specific needs. I do a lot of street shooting and although having something lighter would be fantastic, I’m not more convinced that it’s better to have something more robust and durable to suit how I capture images. speaking of beauty, does anyone know where to find one of the h16 Rex 5 cameras that are all black without the chrome? They are simply stunning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Thomas Faehrenkemper Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 Dear Derick, some R16 have an automatic exposure or and all a TTL exposure meter, so with the battery handgrip it is very suitable for street shooting. The Bolex is much slower and the spring drive mostly leaves you alone when the situation is on the peak. Have a nice rendezvous with the 25 years younger French lady, you won't regret it!☺️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymond Zananiri Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Does anyone know what voltage is needed to power the Beaulieu R16? Is the connector on the camera a typical 4 pin connector for 12V? There are alternatives to the handgrip battery, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Dom Jaeger Posted October 14, 2020 Premium Member Share Posted October 14, 2020 19 hours ago, Raymond Zananiri said: Does anyone know what voltage is needed to power the Beaulieu R16? Is the connector on the camera a typical 4 pin connector for 12V? There are alternatives to the handgrip battery, right? These are easily googled questions. Voltage is 7.2V, but up to 8V is OK, and even 6V works for speeds up to 32fps: http://www.vintagecameras.fr/images/MonSite/BEAULIEU/R16_Electric/_Doc/Beaulieu_R16-Electric_Manual_en_Revu.pdf The connector is a 3 pin DIN: https://sayyes2analog.wordpress.com/2018/06/17/beaulieu-external-battery/ You can easily wire up an external battery with a DIN connector. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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