Jump to content
Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

What is verdict on Cintel 2 scanner for 16mm?

Recommended Posts

I see the Cintel has only one sound reader. Will the same reader handle both 35mm and 16mm optical? 

How does the Cintel 2 handle damaged and warped film like in the photo?

warp film LLLLR.jpg

Are you happy with the quality of the scan for archival material?

I didn't see any USB options on the scanner. Can it be used with a PC or is it for a Mac?

Thanks

 

PS...I'm down to a 60kb photo limit here. Pretty soon you will need a magnifying glass to see the GD photo.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I can tell it is not a good 16mm scanner.

1. It is sprocket drive so shrunk and damaged film not a great option.

2. The picture area of the 16mm scan is significantly less than HD especially for Standard 16mm

3. The sensor in the scanner has significant fixed pattern noise issues.

This does not stop unethical people from saying the scans are "2K" for 16mm or selling them as such. The "2K" scan from the Cintel is a full 16mm gauge overscan with the S16mm or 16mm picture area being much less than HD.

Maybe if they make a Cintel 3 with capstan drive and optical perf stabilization and use the 6k sensor instead of the old UHD one it could be a ok machine.

I think it only works with Resolve on a Mac.

 

I would look at a LaserGrpahics Scan Station personal if they offer the 6.5K sensor in the future (the 5K sensor they were using is junk) or a Muller with the 4K Sony Pregius maybe for stuff in the same price range.

Edited by Robert Houllahan
add info
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cintel is designed for fresh camera negative, nothing else. They did a modification recently that makes it sprocketless, but the system is not designed for warped or stretched film at all. Where I do think the HDR Cintel in 35mm looks ok, it's no "finishing" scanner at all. 16mm is garbage, it's noisy as shit, I have not been able to get a crisp image out of it and stability sucks. I have no idea why they even offer 16mm with such shitty quality. All they needed to do was offer an optical kit and they'd be in business, but as it stands, cropping a pretty poor imager by more than 2x, yea its never going to work. Rumor around the mill is that there is a new 6k imager on the way out soon. I haven't heard anything since last summer, but my guess is we'll see something soon. The new 6k imager from the pocket camera will be perfect, without optical changes it could do 2.5k on 16mm no problem and it's a much more noise-free imager. Hopefully they do it and offer it as an upgrade for current users. I'm very upset they haven't done anything because they COULD have a very competitive scanner if they did. The imager is really the only major downside if you're business is camera negative. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I'm glad I didn't go into debt borrowing $$ to buy a Cintel. I looked at the Filmfabriek scanner. It looks good and they say it does sound. Still trying to find the price.  Sound and warped film is always the issue and of course $$. 

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

16mm resolutions:

 

1903 x 1143 - Super 16

1581 x 1154 - Standard 16

 

Not good...

 

If LaserGrpahics puts the 6.5K Sony Pregius into the SSP (base model) that would be a winner, they will probably have to if BMD puts the 6K sensor in a Cintel 3.

Unfortunately as an owner of a LG SSP with the 5K sensor I cannot recommend it ($55K) and LaserGraphics has been entirely unresponsive about the fixed pattern noise issues on the 5K sensor for us which is a total disappointment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If blackmagic got their act together, they'd dominate the original camera negative market. Until they do, sadly we're stuck with much higher cost scanners that aren't MUCH better until you get above $90K. The middle (30 - 40k) market, just doesn't exist. There just isn't a big enough market for it, that's the main problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I contacted FilmFabriek. (I think that is the Muller scanner.) I was quoted just under $40k for a 4K scanner. Looks like a nice scanner for archival work. Wetgate sounds great. Still lots of $$, but more affordable than even the cheapest Lasergraphics. Plus you don't have to pay the $7.5K setup fee from Lasergraphics. (Plus the sales tax on the set up fee which is another $500.) Just slickening how $$ film scanning is.

https://filmfabriek.nl/

What do you think of the FilmFabriek scanner?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

If blackmagic got their act together, they'd dominate the original camera negative market. Until they do, sadly we're stuck with much higher cost scanners that aren't MUCH better until you get above $90K. The middle (30 - 40k) market, just doesn't exist. There just isn't a big enough market for it, that's the main problem. 

What type of scanner are they using for big budget Hollywood (or Georgia) films? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

16mm resolutions:

 

1903 x 1143 - Super 16

1581 x 1154 - Standard 16

 

Not good...

 

If LaserGrpahics puts the 6.5K Sony Pregius into the SSP (base model) that would be a winner, they will probably have to if BMD puts the 6K sensor in a Cintel 3.

Unfortunately as an owner of a LG SSP with the 5K sensor I cannot recommend it ($55K) and LaserGraphics has been entirely unresponsive about the fixed pattern noise issues on the 5K sensor for us which is a total disappointment.

Unresponsive??  I wrote them many, many times trying to find out how much the scanners cost. Took them close to a year to reply. The scanning industry seems terrible to deal with. Maybe Lasergraphics only likes to deal with deep pocket customers.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are the prices for the FilmFabriek options. 

Item

Qty

Cat #

Description

Price US $

 

 

1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

 

 

 

 

 

 

1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FilmFabriek HDS+ small format film scanner inclusive of:

  • 4K (4096 x 3000) camera

  • Sprocket-less transport system

  • 8mm, S8mm, 16mm, S16mm format film gates

  • Wetgate restoration module

  • Restoration software (2K .avi scans only)

  • PTR Roller set

  • Shuttle Express controller

  • Audio Monitoring Amplifier

OPTIONS

16mm Magnetic sound head

16mm Optical sound head

8mm Magnetic sound head

Take Up reel (8mm or 16mm) Price per reel

Spare PTR roller (Pair)

Spare Wetgate rollers (Pair)

Extended warranty for 1 year (Following initial warranty)

Shipping, includes dedicated crate, to USA port of entry

Fed Ex Express shipping to your facility in USA (Estimated)

Onsite installation and training, per day excl. expenses

Training and Software Installation remotely using TeamViewer

Notes:

  1. Pricing based on current exchange rate to the Euro

  2. Unit requires a dedicated workstation, for purchasers supplying their own, specification available

  3. Restoration software performance subject to workstation specification

Leasing and “Rent to Buy” options may be available to qualified individuals or companies. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

$35,994.00

 

 

$1,554.00

$1,554.00

$1,554.00

$298.80

$300.00

$150.00

$3,599.00

$950.00

$650.00

$1,250.00

 

$475.00

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Terms:

T.B.A

 

Includes:

Availability:

Typically 2 – 6 weeks

 

3D Stereoscopic Processor

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Wetgate sounds great.

This keeps coming up in threads I'm on. The Film Fabriek is not really wet gate. It's only a wet gate in that the film is damp when it passes in front of the camera, yes. But it's basically a cleaning thing, not a scratch concealment thing because of the solvent they're using. Wetgate works by filling in BASE (not emulsion) scratches with a solvent that's got the same refractive index as the acetate itself. **IF**  and only if the light source is collimated. In this case, the photons are focused into a linear beam, and when the light hits the scratch it will bounce off of the edges like light in a prism. If the scratch is filled with a solvent that has the same refractive index as the base, then the light will pass straight through. Alcohol is not that solvent. What it will do is clean the film a bit before it goes through the gate and then evaporates, but not much more than that. 

If the light source is sufficiently diffuse, the scratch doesn't really appear in the first place because the photons are scattered all over the place and don't refract off the scratch so there's not much point in a wet gate on a modern scanner.

It makes a ton of sense on film printers, or any scanner where the light is focused through a lens before it hits the film. That's not how most scanners made in the past 20 years work though. 

 

Edited by Perry Paolantonio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well yeas and no, a real full immersion liquid gate with something like Perc or a 3M engineered fluid will consistently fully fill in and make good all the base scratches.

Base scratches still show up on modern scanners with diffuse light and then have to be digitally fixed, they may be less apparent than on an older CRT scanner but they are still visible in the scan.

The Film FabFabriek uses alcohol which as Perry says is not of the right refractive index to fill the base nor is that machine a full immersion gate. It does have the Sony pregius 4K sensor which is a mile better than the 4K junker in the Cintel and the noisy 5K in the Scan Station.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Real wet gate or not, FilmFabriek does a nice job. Here are 2 sample videos the company rep sent me.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwtw5des7tlc4tj/1%20-%20no-wetgate-scratches.avi?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cd272iik73mwqee/3%20-%20wetgate-scratches-restoration%400DiGrSh.avi?dl=0

 

I have a nice before and after photo, but you can't see much with my very low photo limit here. Take my word for it...amazing! 

 

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The second video has been altered (the color is totally different). it has probably gone through their software scratch removal as well as some level of color balancing. It's not the wet gate that's doing that, it's software.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Perry Paolantonio said:

The second video has been altered (the color is totally different). it has probably gone through their software scratch removal as well as some level of color balancing. It's not the wet gate that's doing that, it's software.

Don't know. If they have software that does that then who needs wetgate? I will ask the rep. And if it is not all wetgate, then it is a lie by the company.

Here was a another video he sent. I think this one shows the wetgate with no color correction.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uhdrfjb7gawldy5/2 - wetgate-scratches.avi?dl=0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, that's not the wet gate doing that. Look at the colors. Wet gate will not affect color. This image has been processed post-scan, and there's no way to know what else has been done to it. Post a video of the film run through the wet gate *ONLY* with no post-scan processing of any kind (color correction, noise reduction, restoration), and then you can make a comparison. But you're comparing apples to oranges here. 

I can scan a dirty film on our ScanStation with and without threading through PTR rollers, then run it through Resolve to color correct and Phoenix to clean it up. But I can't say the PTR rollers are responsible for the difference. That is effectively what you're saying here, only it's a "wet gate" not a PTR roller. 

All that system will do is clean some of the gunk off the film before it gets to the gate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes Perry, no one is disputing the color work. Here is the reps reply on it.

The scratches were removed with the wet gate and then the FRS software was used for grain reduction, dirt removal and a little sharpening.

There is a weird perception to the eye when you remove some of the grain the impression is that the image softens slightly, hence a little sharpening is applied.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right. FRS is their restoration software. You'd want to see the film with and without wet gate and with no FRS and no color correction. Basically, run the film through with no wet gate and capture it. back it up, turn on wet gate and do it again. Don't change any settings on the scanner.  that's the only way to test what the wet gate is doing. Once you introduce other software you're muddying the waters. 

Dust removal and noise reduction can affect scratches too, so they need to be turned off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah what Perry said.

 

Alcohol is not a liquid with a refractive index which will really work as a liquid gate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachloroethylene is.

You will need some proper handling and venting of that fluid.

 Arri and DFT have full immersion gates here is a video of the Scannity:

 

I think each liquid gate for the Scannity is $225,000 not sure if they have a 8mm liquid gate yet.

Real liquid gate scans are expensive and fussy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • FJS International



    The Original Slider



    Rig Wheels Passport



    Metropolis Post



    Glidecam



    New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment



    Visual Products



    Broadcast Solutions Inc



    Just Cinema Gear



    Paralinx LLC



    Wooden Camera



    Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS



    G-Force Grips



    Gamma Ray Digital Inc



    Abel Cine



    Ritter Battery



    Serious Gear



    CineLab



    Tai Audio


    Cinematography Books and Gear
×
×
  • Create New...