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Full frame cine zooms


Sam Edmonds

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Hello all

 

Was wondering if people think we are going to see more full frame cine zoom lenses come onto the market with more full frame cameras being released?

I know Angenieux released the Ez series and Sigma brought out short range FF zooms, but do you think we shall see a lot more being released?

Is it possible to make mid range cine zooms for full frame, or are the costs of making them always going to put them into higher price bracket?

 

Many thanks

Sam

 

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I guess it's more a demand thing. FF stills zooms exist and are affordable, so maybe those designs could be adapted into affordable FF cine zooms. 

It is looking like more and more camera manufacturers are going beyond super 35. Especially with the Sony FX9, C500 cameras that are going to need affordable FF zooms for TV doco work. If the FX9 is as successful as the FS7, people are going to want glass. 

Len's seem to lag behind cameras, affordable cinestyle S35mm lenses only started to show up  few years into the RED/DSLR revolution 

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1 hour ago, Phil Connolly said:

FF stills zooms exist and are affordable, so maybe those designs could be adapted into affordable FF cine zooms. 

I'm not so sure. Stills zooms are not really built much like movie zooms. Movie zooms have precision-made components to ensure that various pieces of glass move in very precise relationships. Stills zooms are more like variable primes that rely on the camera's autofocus to sort things out. Most of them attempt to maintain approximately correct focus for framing purposes - generally the better ones. That's why Sigma finds itself making zooms that are almost parfocal, and why things like TLS's Morpheus rehousing of that Nikon 80-200 can happen, but at least some stills zooms have a wildly different optical layout to a movie zoom. It's not comparable technology at all.

When people try to do what we're talking about here, you end up with something like those Sony E-mount zooms that are endlessly sold with FS-series cameras. There's a 28-135 f/4, an 18-110 f/4, and and an 18-200 which ramps from 3.5 to 6.3. None of these really have the specs to replace an ENG-style lens, and they're a hybrid design where the focus servo hunts visibly for half a second if you snap the zoom in. It's vastly better than a non-parfocal stills zoom, though it's also vastly more horrible than a real zoom. Given that the 18-110 is £3k to begin with it seems likely that any attempt to improve this approach to make it into a professional tool that feels like a real zoom, using better, faster servos, is likely to cross over price-wise with an LWZ.3.

It's a really big deal. When I first got into camera gear I was able to buy an outfit with a 6.4-128mm f/1.4 lens including body, tripod, battery system and glass for under £20k. There is nothing that provides that amount of capability for that kind of money now, even on super35, let alone full frame. People in this position are left with the mediocre Sony stuff (and a resulting requirement for an E-mount camera, of course) or saving up for the bottom end of Zeiss or Fuji.

This situation sucks and has sucked for years.

 

 

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OP, I had good luck with a Canon FD 35-70 zoom adapted to Sony. ($45 from Japan) But zoom range is puny, it is slow and don't use it much. It is a sharp, well built lens. Just wish it went from 35-135.

You have to be careful with adapted lenses to Sony. Some yield poor corner sharpness, esp wides. I've been using Rokinon cine lenses, the basic ones. Happy with them for my work. Maybe Rok will come out with a cine zoom that is affordable.

There could be an issue with mixing still camera lenses with cine lenses, the f stop vs t stop thing. But I've not found any issue with this zoom that way. I don't have to swap lenses without shooting some digital test footage. Maybe that was more of an issue in the film era. The Canon FD does produce a different IQ than my Rok lenses. 

Lots of zoom options out there if you got the $$.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=cine Sony E mount zoom&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

...you know the deal...lotto hits...and I will buy the Zeiss!

 

 

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
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I just bought a Sony fx9 and the kit lens that comes with it .. 28-135.. (Phil the 18-110 is s35 only).. the kit lens is what it is ..  but for the price its very good.. the AF in the fx9 is also very good, taken from the Alpha series .. but only to be used in situations where is pretty much unbreakable .. interviews .. presenters etc.. but for Sony camera,s anyway .. the new 3 x  FF cine zooms Sony are releasing will be the lens of choice.  the first is due in spring 16-35mm..  people seem to think around $5K.. which is still very cheap for a "real" cine lens, Sony claims they will be .. 

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12 hours ago, Sam Edmonds said:

Was wondering if people think we are going to see more full frame cine zoom lenses come onto the market with more full frame cameras being released?

I know Angenieux released the Ez series and Sigma brought out short range FF zooms, but do you think we shall see a lot more being released?

Is it possible to make mid range cine zooms for full frame, or are the costs of making them always going to put them into higher price bracket?

 

Panavision have some large format zoom options if you go the rental route.

There are also the three Zeiss Compact Zooms and I believe both Fujinon and Leitz are about to release some full frame zooms also.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arri try to produce something to match their Signature Prime range, but i suspect none of these new options are going to be affordable for most owner operators.

It's possible more will come, but zooms (and particularly parfocal, constant aperture cine zooms) are much harder to produce than primes, and tend to require specific optical expertise. The modern incarnation of Cooke for instance has not had much success with zooms, and Zeiss for many years was not a manufacturer of zooms for cine formats, outside of their single 10x zoom for the 16mm format. Even now their relatively mid-range priced Compact Zooms are not without issues. Tokina might put out something more than their single offering, maybe Sigma too.

I don't really know much about the Sony zooms, different market to where I work, they look like ENG zooms more than cine. 

If there are low cost full frame cine zooms on the horizon I guarantee they will be compromised in some way -  either slow or short range or limited to the manufacturer's cameras with in-camera software correction or poor quality or simply not very durable. It just requires considerable effort to make a good cine zoom, and there's really no getting around that.

 

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Yes the current Sony ,fly by wire ,FF .. 28-135 is not a cine zoom.. I mean you could do alot worse than shoot a low budget film on the 6K sensor of the fx9 with this lens .. the new ones they are making they claim to be "Cine" lenses .. but incorporating AF functions  with Sony camera,s anyway so far.... I was the first to shoot down any idea of AF..  but I have to say .. I think as its getting so much better for some shots, it will actually be more accurate (if thats what you want ) than a focus puller working wide aperture FF sensor ..these things can hold someone running at the camera !..  but wont of course take there place totally of a FP..

https://briansmith.com/sony-teases-2-more-cine-lenses-fe-c-16-35mm-t3-1-g-lens-video/

Edited by Robin R Probyn
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as others said, most of the FF zooms are short range or not very good quality or have awkward mechanics not really suitable for cine use. Most good stills zooms and lower priced "prosume cine zooms" tend to be about 3:1 zoom ratio especially if they need to have any kind of usable image quality. Compromising size, weight, speed, optical quality, price is easiest by lowering the zoom ratio and making electronic focus tuning tricks to try to mimic parfocal behaviour so that complex heavy and expensive mechanics don't need to be used.

designing and manufacturing good high performance lenses is among the most challenging jobs there is in cinema equipment manufacturing. making cameras is relatively easy if someone manufactures good quality sensors for you, and making other cine equipment like lights, dollies, follow focuses, remote focus, crane, stabilizers etc etc. is something a handy person could do at home if determined enough.

designing and manufacturing optical elements for great quality lenses is the tough part. lots of custom equipment and expertise needed. and it just takes lots of time to get any usable results. You surely have noticed how often "new cine lenses" are just rehoused stuff by the same manufacturer with mechanics and maybe the coatings changed but otherwise they are optically the same? every Chinese sweatshop can do basic rehousing and custom mechanics (there is eBay "cine rehoused" still lens stuff available for reasonable prices) but actually designing and manufacturing a completely now great performing optical system from scratch is not that simple anymore and will take lots of time and expense. even big manufacturers don't want to do that unless absolutely necessary and unless there is a huge demand which is why companies like Samyang etc just rehouse their old designs releasing them as "new lenses" instead of making anything totally new and we rarely see any new designs even from the largest manufacturers. with "real cine lenses" there is the additional disadvantage of low demand which does not encourage any real development in the area. the "prosume cine range" (low budget/corporate/documentaries/owner-op) has lots more demand but they rarely can afford 50k+ prices so have to live with lots of compromises in the designs

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17 minutes ago, aapo lettinen said:

designing and manufacturing good high performance lenses is among the most challenging jobs there is in cinema equipment manufacturing

when you start to look at it, the "new designs" may be just altered versions of old stuff... like the Hawk C-series based on Lomo Roundfronts (they even look pretty similar externally and weight and dimensions are a match) . Or the Canon 50-1000 clearly based on their ENG zoom with better mechanics added and extender added to get S35 coverage.

Or for example the Atlas Orion anamorphics which are claimed to be based on copied optical plans / possibly stolen IP from another manufacturer which is possibly why they could make them so affordable (no need to design your own optics, just the housing and fine tuning the result) 

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I guess the other option on FX9 is to stick to S35 mode for run and gun when you need a CINE/ENG zoom.

I'm seriously considering getting an FX9 and partnering it with a set of Canon CNE Primes we already have. Think it will make a really nice package for budget drama shoots and teaching workshops. 

Would like to consider a zoom down the line, if prices fall and there are more options, but for my teaching purposes primes are fine. 

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