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honda eu7000is adaptation?...


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50' length .

 

Contact Paladin in Hollywood for  50' Bates as well as a 60amp snack box.gang box.
 

1001 N. POINSETTIA PL.

WEST HOLLYWOOD, CA 90046 US

Phone: (323) 851-8222
Contact: Darrin Scane


2019  purchase:
50'  60amp bates : $188.00

60amp gangbox : $232.00

Shipping might break the deal on price but you are probably going to have to ship in the SC cord anyway.

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8 hours ago, john spader said:

ok, i'll check out SC. then wut were yur thoughts on the distance stuff?

You have to consider voltage drop in the cable (bamded, bates or stinger) at a given length and current draw. Beyond an acceptable amount, you will have trouble getting an HMI to strike or re-strike.  With voltage drop, color temp shift sin the warm direction.  Too much to cover here.  I'd run no more than 100' of Bates, at 45A our voltage drop would be a little over 3%, still acceptable.

Edited by JD Hartman
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On 3/14/2020 at 4:10 PM, john spader said:

THANK YOU EVERYONE! This is great feedback and its making me feel more confident about accomplishing this with the local professional after I read the manual, open her up and wrap my brain around this.

 

Screen Shot 2020-03-14 at 3.14.19 PM.png

Slow down.  As someone who used to offer this mod (the picture above is from our website) and can no longer do so,  I can tell you that even if you could find someone to do it these days (I doubt you will) I wouldn't do it. While the modification was very straight forward with the Honda EU6500, there are mechanical issues that make it very difficult on the Honda EU7000.  And, since January of 2020 there are now Code issues that make it illegal in many states.  For these reasons, any responsible shop that used to do the mod no longer does so.  Let's look at the mechanical reasons first.

Starting with the 2017 Code,  the NEC mandates that any portable generator under 10kW with 240V output be GFCI protected.  To make it code compliant Honda has put GFCIs on the latest edition of the EU 7000 leaving no room for the 60A Bates on the redesigned  power panel. Those companies that continued to offer the mod (Multiquip) could only do so by completely removing the 30A Twist-Lock from the panel, moving the control circuit board,  building in overcurrent protection, and machining a cover plate to cover the hole in the panel left by the 30A Twist-lock.  They also had to silk screen onto the cover plate the warnings required to reduce their liability.  Of course all this was not UL tested and so voided the UL listing of the generator. 

Fast forward to January 2020. The 2020 edition of the Code greatly expanded GFCI requirements to include all outdoor circuits of 150V or less to ground and 50A or less whether fixed or portable. Since the Bates mode provided 50A at 120V it now requires GFCI protection which is why I suspect even Multiquip will discontinue offering the modification. The only way to get a 60A circuit capable of powering a 4kW HMI or 5kW Tungsten light out of a Honda EU6500 or EU7000 is to use a small step-down transformer to convert the 240V output of the generator to 120V.  Since this circuit is 60A at 120V it is not required by Code to be protected by a GFCI.

The NEC is the minimum required for electrical safety on set.  Our industry standards writing group, ESTA, recommends the use of GFCIs on all branch circuits of 100A or less.  For this reason we now offer a listed 60A GFCI that can be used on a step-down transformer, or on any 60 or 100A Bates circuit to provide unparalleled ground fault protection. And since NEC Section 215.9 permits the use of a GFCI on the feeder of branch circuits requiring GFCIs, it can also be used to provide the GFCI protection required on the 20A circuits of gang and lunch boxes as pictured below.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting rental & sales in Boston.

60A_GFCI_On_Location_Vertical_Super_Low_Rez.jpg

Edited by Guy Holt
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thx for chiming in here Guy, but that modification has been used and safe for years...so seems silly for the NEC to all of sudden say something else. But from a business pov like you guys where you're trying to sell your products, I understand how its best to follow their mandates for liability and such...with respect.

Bottom line is I probably can't afford your suggestion. I can probably get this modification done for under $500. There are other places on the eu7000 unit where the bates can be mounted other than the face with the other plugs. Where theres a will theres a way... and I'm more of a glass half full type a person.

 

Edited by john spader
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6 hours ago, john spader said:

... But from a business pov like you guys where you're trying to sell your products, I understand how its best to follow their mandates for liability and such...with respect....There are other places on the eu7000 unit where the bates can be mounted other than the face with the other plugs. Where theres a will theres a way... and I'm more of a glass half full type a person.

Impugning my motives won't change the facts.  Take a look around your EU7000. It is designed to be compact and quiet. To be compact there is no wasted space. To be quiet there is a steel wall between the electrical compartment behind the power panel and the rest of the generator, which means there is no place else to put the Bates connector.  We used to offer this mod and if it were still possible I would happily do it for you, but it is practically impossible after the  power panel was redesigned to accommodate  GFCIs.  

6 hours ago, john spader said:

...that modification has been used and safe for years...so seems silly for the NEC to all of sudden say something else.

Not true.  The NEC is written in blood. Everyone of its requirements is the result of someone being injured or property damaged. The NEC requires GFCIs on Hondas because they present, and have always presented, a particular hazard.  What happened was Hurricane Katrina when there was a surge of electrical injuries from the operation of portable generators.

Because they are designed primarily for home standby power, the Honda EU6500s and 7000s do not bond the equipment grounding conductor to the neutral of the generator as required by OSHA. Without a Neutral/Ground bond, as illustrated below, a multiple fault condition exposes an individual touching faulty equipment to 240 volt potential which is  lethal. The NEC is law in all 50 states, the AHJ (or OSHA most likely) will  enforce this requirement and shut down your production.  Years ago I gaffed a grad student thesis film project that was shutdown by the electrical inspector because he happened upon our set on his way home from work.  

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting Rental & Sales in Boston 

SB_2Fault240V_Exposure.jpg

Edited by Guy Holt
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definitely not intending to argue your motive, just seems like most people (except for Mr.Conley) just lean toward all the cons or that its too hard so why bother. I like to learn. and I believe that this can be done and have it be as safe as any other of the units out there still being rented. This would be for small non-sag productions, mostly my own stuff anyway. I try to be careful and safe with everything I do of course, so in hindsight I do appreciate the codes/laws etc. in the best interest of safety.

What are your thoughts on pushing a 4-5ft rod into the earth connected to the gene or snackbox' ground not a safety solution?

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14 hours ago, john spader said:

This would be for small non-sag productions, mostly my own stuff anyway.

The inspector that shut down the grad student thesis film I gaffed didn't care a bit that it was a non-Sag micro-budget student film.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, Screenlight & Grip. Lighting rental and sales in Boston

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14 hours ago, john spader said:

... I believe that this can be done and have it be as safe as any other of the units out there still being rented.

The Code article that mandated that any portable generator under 10kW with 240V output be GFCI protected grandfathered generators manufactured before 2014 which permits rental houses to continue to rent their EU6500s with Bates modifications. It does not, however, exempt the users of those generators from the Article 210 general requirement for GFCIs on outdoor circuits of 150V to ground or less, and 50A or less.  To meet this requirement electrical manufacturers like Woodhead and Hubble introduced  inline 120V and 240V  30A GFCIs, but since the 50A Bates mod was an after market modification done on a very limited scale, large manufacturers like Woodhead and Hubble did not see a market for  an inline 50A/120V GFCI. Which means that until Shock Stop introduced  their inline 60A /120V GFCI (pictured above) the only option was to use one of the 100A/120V Shock Block GFCIs manufactured by Littelfuse or Bender.

The ability to use high amperage  "film style" GFCIs like those manufactured by Shock Stop, Littelfuse, and Bender to provide the Code mandated GFCI protection  required on the 20A receptacles of lunch boxes and gang boxes is a huge benefit to us because the alternative, hardware store style GFCI dongles, are prone to nuisance tripping with many motion picture lighting instruments.  Thats because many of the manufacturers of lighting fixtures that use electronic power supplies (HMIs, Kinos, & LEDs) shunt the harmonic currents they generate to their equipment grounding conductor as a means of reducing RF.  Since these harmonic currents, called residual currents, return to their source via the equipment grounding conductor rather than the neutral,  inexpensive hardware store GFCIs sense  a current imbalance and trip.  Such trips are a nuisance because the residual currents these power supplies generate do not pose a shock hazard. What makes high amperage  "film style" GFCIs like those manufactured by Shock Stop, Littelfuse, and Bender worth the extra expense is that they filter high frequency currents and thereby are not tripped by these residual currents. For this reason it is far better to use a high amperage film style GFCI just upstream of a lunch or gang box than to use 15A hardware store GFCI dongles on the 20A outlets of a lunch or gang box as pictured below.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting rental and sales in Boston

Blanket_vs_Horizontal_Coverage_Low_Rez_Composite.jpg.0e1df63d3c9743309cb7cfcdc80d2b3d.jpg

Edited by Guy Holt
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14 hours ago, john spader said:

What are your thoughts on pushing a 4-5ft rod into the earth connected to the gene or snackbox' ground not a safety solution?

I think you should hire a Gaffer that will keep you Code compliant. I salute your desire to learn but there comes a point where you can't expect to know everything and should hire a "Qualified Person."  In Code parlance a Qualified Person is someone who has received formal training in the hazards posed by electricity and how to mitigate it. When it comes to using electricity a little knowledge can be dangerous.

It may not seem like it, but this is a very complicated question. The Code requires that ground rods be 10ft, driven all the way into the ground, and the impedance to earth of the driven rod be no more than 25Ωs . If you are not able to satisfy this requirement with one rod, the code allows you to satisfy its requirement by driving a second rod not less than 6ft from the first.  However, Honda EU6500s and EU7000s meet the Code requirements to be exempted from its grounding electrode requirement. They do not however meet OSHA's requirements to be exempted. To complicate the issue further,  the NEC is a uniform code that is adopted into law in whole, or in part, by the local "Authority Having Jurisdiction" or AHJ.  It is not uncommon for the AHJ to modify or augment the NEC in adopting it into law.  For instance, in the City of Los Angeles you are not required  to ground generators, but here in Boston we are required to ground generators. In the city of Boston, we are not permitted to use gas generators, but must use diesel generators. In short you need to check with the AHJ where you are shooting to see what the requirement is. To complicate the issue even further, the Code is the minimum required for electrical safety. Even though it does not require a Honda EU6500 or EU7000  to be earth grounded there are, IMO, good reasons to ground Hondas.  For one, GFCIs will operate more reliably if they are, but that is more than I have time to get into now (perhaps later if you are interested). If you have not already, I suggest you read my white paper on the use of portable generators in motion picture production. It is available at http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting rental and sales in Boston.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, john spader said:

this makes sense. can't seem to find a 60 amp GFCI from Shock Stop, Littelfuse, or Bender...do you have a link for one?

and, so with this...I shouldn't install GFCI's on the snackbox then, yes?

Do a Google search for Shock Stop GFCI in parenthesis, that is enter "Shock Stop GFCI" in the Google Search Bar.

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21 hours ago, john spader said:

...I shouldn't install GFCI's on the snackbox then, yes?

There are two reasons why you should not replace the duplex receptacles on your gang box with GFCI receptacles. First, it is a code violation and, second, they are the wrong kind of GFCIs for the loads we use.

First, while the Code permits you to build your own “cord set”,  it requires that cord sets utilize GFCI protection listed for portable use. The reason for this is that such GFCIs include "Open Neutral" protection, which enhances personnel safety where such devices are subject to the possibility of losing a Neutral connection. For this reason, it is not permissible to utilize GFCI receptacles designed and listed for permanent installation without Open Neutral protection in portable cord sets.

The second reason not to replace the duplex receptacles on your gang box with GFCI receptacles, is that  they are the wrong kind of GFCIs for the loads we use. In addition to not filtering residual currents, hardware store type GFCIs use a much more aggressive trip curve than do film style GFCIs like those manufactured by Shock Stop, Littelfuse,  and Bender. To understand the difference requires a little background information.

To improve the generally poor reliability of early GFCIs, in 2003 UL published a new standard (UL 943) for GFCIs designed to prevent nuisance tripping by transient conditions that are not of a sufficient duration to pose a hazard. The new standard allowed GFCIs to trip on an "Inverse Time Curve."  An inverse time curve can be mathematically expressed as I2T where "I" is current and "T" is the time it takes to trip. 

Since this is a logarithmic equation, the plot of I versus T (as can be seen in graph below) does not follow a straight line but introduces a delay that decreases as the magnitude of the current increases.   The advantage to an inverse time trip curve is that it permits transient spikes in leakage that are sufficiently  short in duration so as not to pose a shock hazard to pass while keeping current through the body to safe levels. And, as mentioned in my previous post, UL 943 also permits GFCIs to incorporate high frequency filters to avoid nuisance tripping from GFCIs becoming sensitized by residual currents.  Attenuated by a filter, high frequency harmonic currents drawn by non-linear loads won't trip or sensitize GFCIs. 

Even though the UL 943 standard was meant to enable GFCIs to operate more reliably in real world conditions, manufacturers of inexpensive GFCIs, like those found in hardware stores, do not implement the exact UL943 curve because it requires sophisticated micro-processors, which makes the design more complicated and the GFCI more expensive. Nor, do they filter high frequency residual currents for the same reason. Instead they use a more aggressive response (also illustrated in the graph below) that is lower and faster than that required by UL 943 (typically 25ms at 6 mA where UL 943 permits 5.59 seconds.) 

This more aggressive trip curve and lack of filtration does not generally pose a problem in the one-tool per circuit applications for which hardware store GFCIs are designed. After all, power tools are by their nature linear loads that do not draw high frequency harmonic currents. However, the more aggressive trip curve of this style of GFCI has proven to be a problem in applications  involving non-linear lighting loads,  namely the type of lights increasingly used in motion picture production.  And, with the number of LED fixtures that have non-pfc power supplies increasing on set, nuisance tripping of inexpensive GFCIs will only become more frequent.  So what’s a set electrician to do? 

Fortunately, NEC Section 215.9, Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel provides general permission for a feeder to be GFCI protected where it supplies 15- and  20A receptacle branch circuits requiring GFCI protection under Section 210.8. The section reads as follows:

“Feeders supplying 15- and 20-ampere receptacle branch circuits shall be permitted to be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter in lieu of the provisions for such interrupters as specified in 210.8 and 590.6(A).”

Since this section prescriptively identifies feeder GFCI protection “in lieu of” that required in 210.8, it permits the use of film style GFCIs  (like the Shock Block SB100, LifeGuard LG100, and Shock Stop 60-100), with 100A Lunch Boxes to satisfy the recently expanded Section 210.8 requirement for GFCI protection on all single-phase branch circuits outdoors  rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amps or less. This is good news for us since film style GFCIs, like the LifeGuard, Shock Block, or Shock Stop are a lot less prone to nuisance tripping because, unlike hardware store GFCIs,  they employ high frequency filters and a trip curve that more closely approximates the inverse-time curve of UL943.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting sales and rentals in Boston

UL943_Curve_vs_Hardware_GFCI_Curve_Low_Rez.jpg.fea8979526d60aa1c401cb27d1b30bbc.jpg

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