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Ultra 16mm Progress


John Adolfi

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Guest Joseph Gioielli

How about projection? I shoot and project film and I wonder if any mods would have to be done to the projector?

 

Thanks

Joe

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3)Easier to blow up to 35mm because the size is more compatable

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

I dont think you will be able to blow up ultra 16 to 35mm. AFAIK no optical printer in the world has a gate! Oxberry offered to make one for UDS 8000 a few years ago.....

 

Stephen

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To optically blowup to 35mm, you're likely to run into problems (from what I hear), but for DI, Ultra16 starts making more sense.

 

I simply brought my gate to my friend (a jeweler) with a strip of 16mm film, showing him where the keycodes are to be avoided, and a simple diagram of what area was to be filed out.

He did a perfect job. These guys have the tolls and the expertise to do this easily, even though they're not camera repair people. (Remove your gate first, don't walk into a jeweler with a camera and expect him to remove your gate).

 

Here's a company that does the gate conversion, with some other info that you guys might want to read.

 

http://www.cameraspro.com/ultra16cameraspro.html

 

It's certainly not the best format to go with, but I hope it gains in popularity, because for one thing, as someone who's into recycling, it doesn't make much sense to me to throw a couple million perfectly good 16mm cameras in the landfills.

 

Matt Pacini

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Hi,

 

I dont think you will be able to blow up ultra 16 to 35mm. AFAIK no optical printer in the world has a gate! Oxberry offered to make one for UDS 8000 a few years ago.....

 

Stephen

 

As explained by Guy from Cameras pro

 

Digitally blow up to 35mm Digital Intermediate. The film original is scanned at high resolution onto your computer, the density and color corrections made there and then the final edited digital file is "printed" back to a 35mm master on the ArriLaser system. Just as is now being done with S16 to 35mm. There would be no optical blowup required.

 

Regarding the Arri BL?

 

Im getting confused by this?

 

The closeness of the shutter means the glass may not capture all the Picture and could cause flaring. SO How come the Arri BL can be upgraded to Super 16mm Which would be shaving of 2mm One side as opposed to 0.7mm EACH side for Ultra?

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As explained by Guy from Cameras pro

 

Digitally blow up to 35mm  Digital Intermediate.  The film original is scanned at high resolution  onto your computer, the density and color corrections made there and then the final edited digital file is "printed" back to a 35mm master on the ArriLaser system. Just as is now being done with S16 to 35mm. There would be no optical blowup required.

 

 

 

Hi,

 

OK ,

 

So your film scanner needs to be modified for ultra 16. An Optical blow up will be far cheaper than a DI

If you can pay for a DI why are you wasting your time trying to save money using with ultra 16?

 

Stephen

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Hi,

 

OK ,

 

So your film scanner needs to be modified for ultra 16. An Optical blow up will be far cheaper than a DI

If you can pay for a DI why are you wasting your time trying to save money using with ultra 16?

 

Stephen

 

Benefits

1) Your Film is NOW the same size to all intents and purposes as SUPER 16mm

2) Telecine To Hi Def for now and the future developements

3)You can DI to 35mm Costs could come down

4) Converting an Arri BL to Super is very expensive.

 

Aims

Every Film I make there is a hope it may be succesful more than its budget or Maker is entitled..I dont make films to knowingly be rubbish they just turn out that way because of my inexperience But I am improving and one day I may get the groove that puts me up there... EVEN succesfull Film Makers can fade into Obscurity.. Every Film Maker is only as good as their last Job !

With this in Mind I want all my Films to have the best chance possible..So what if I made something that went Mainstream eh. Its Possible. yeah I Know so is winning the Lottery. Well I hope with effort and learning I can Narrow those odds and ONE way is to have a Viable Format for little Money ULTRA allows this..

 

WHY dont I go for an Arri SR well The simple answer is I only know what experts tell me and there is a lot of BS AROUND About what Makes a Film I was Tempted by the Sony Z1 AND the Sony 570 but in the end I realised that to make a Film you have to use Film SO I Bought an ARRI BL the cheapest outlay for the Minimum neccesary to make a Sound Film just to see what its like whether High Maintenance or size or whether Whatever? OF Course I know a lot more now Like the Blimp is not that great etc... BUT I have grown to like this Camera even though I have yet to make a Film with it...If you would like to see a sample of what I have been doing with Video then have a look at a Film I made here using Video

 

http://vegasusers.com/vidshare/textdisp?ma...s_the_beginning

 

From This I have been getting the Urge to make something more solid and real to create something more Artistic. I like the Description OF Painting with Light THIS is where I see real Film Making and is what I want to learn about..

 

You ask me why I want Ultra I think its Obvious.. To Make the best that you can..Whatever your Position in Life.

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Benefits

1) Your Film is NOW the same size to all intents and purposes as SUPER 16mm

2) Telecine To Hi Def for now and the future developements

3)You can DI to 35mm Costs could come down

4) Converting an Arri BL to Super is very expensive.

 

 

 

Hi,

 

The workflow for ultra 16 does not exist!

1) The film is not the same size as super 16

2) Possably there is a telecine, somewhere in the world set up for ultra 16,but do you know where?

3) No Ultra 16 DI workflow exists yet AFAIK.

 

You will have to build the workflow yourself, it could be cheaper to go with other formats (35mm 185)! if you NEED a 35mm film print to project.

 

Stephen

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I am new to 16mm and well I am finding this Ultra 16 a great way to begin working with widescreen 16mm film. I understand that there is no real workflow for Ultra 16, but it does kind of make sense to use Ultra especially if you can't convert your gear to Super 16.

 

My only reason for exploring Ultra 16 is because I have bought a Canon Scoopic M. I bought this camera because it's so simple to use, it's virtually idiot proof, a great beginners camera. Ideally I would have like to have a Super 16 camera - but is there on like the Scoopic, cheap and easy to use?

 

I have been told that it is very difficult to convert this camera to Super 16 because of it's non-nterchangable lens. But it can be converted to Ultra 16 simply.

 

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but aren't Rank Telecine machines designed to pull back at least 1.2mm on either side of the frame? - So this should easily cover the Ultra widh easily, so I cant see an issue on the telecine front.

 

Pav

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Someone can correct me if I am wrong but aren't Rank Telecine machines designed to pull back at least 1.2mm on either side of the frame? - So this should easily cover the Ultra widh easily, so I cant see an issue on the telecine front.

 

Pav

 

 

Hi,

 

All older Rank Telecine's are different. If you pull back what about the patch on the tube? , burns etc. If the tube is very new it will be fine but the company may not want to risk their new tube!

 

Stephen

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I emailed Pro8mm a while back about using ultra 16 this was the reply I got back

 

-----------------------------------

 

Our telecine suites have the capability to zoom in or out to get your

full

16mm frame onto video. We are still planning on having HD transfers

available in the beginning of 2006.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Also take a look here

 

http://www.cameraspro.com/

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I emailed Pro8mm a while back about using ultra 16 this was the reply I got back

 

-----------------------------------

 

Our telecine suites have the capability to zoom in or out to get your

full

16mm frame onto video.  We are still planning on having HD transfers

available in the beginning  of 2006.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Also take a look here

 

http://www.cameraspro.com/

 

Hi,

 

A lot of people say they can do things. I prefer to confirm with my own eyes that it works. Often I get told its OK or good enough, when its not.

My reason for caution is 10 years ago I had labs tell me that super 16 was no problem but their film cleaner scratched my negative! It had never happened before because they had never tested it properly! The film guides touched the film.

Test for yourself it may work but could have problems.

 

Good Luck,

 

Stephen

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I emailed Pro8mm a while back about using ultra 16 this was the reply I got back

 

-----------------------------------

 

Our telecine suites have the capability to zoom in or out to get your

full  16mm frame onto video.  We are still planning on having HD transfers

available in the beginning  of 2006.

 

 

 

http://www.cameraspro.com/

 

This is not an answer to the question.

"your full 16mm frame", means at, or smaller, than the regular 16mm frame.

 

Ultra16 is MORE than your full frame, it goes out to the midpoint between the perfs.

You need to be clear about that when asking these places.

 

MP

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This is not an answer to the question.

"your full 16mm frame", means at, or smaller, than the regular 16mm frame.

 

Ultra16 is MORE than your full frame, it goes out to the midpoint between the perfs.

You need to be clear about that when asking these places.

 

MP

 

MY Email to Pro 8mm

_________________________

>I was wondering If you telecine "Ultra 16mm" Which

> involves my Camera gate made wider to almost give the

> same area as super 16 But without any recentering and

> would just require pulling back at the telecine stage?

>

>

> I emailed you awhile back about HDV and you were

> thinking about it for early next year! I would ideally

> like to telecine to HDV? Any updates :)

>

_____________________________

 

Their E-Mail back to me

 

______________________________

>Our telecine suites have the capability to zoom in or out to get your

>full

>16mm frame onto video. We are still planning on having HD transfers

>available in the beginning of 2006.

_______________________________

 

I have explained to pro8 I will be framing in ultra 16mm AND what that means and they have said they can get my full 16mm frame onto Video... THIS is in response to my email explaining what my full frame would be...

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Hi,

 

A lot of people say they can do things. I prefer to confirm with my own eyes that it works. Often I get told its OK or good enough, when its not.

My reason for caution is 10 years ago I had labs tell me that super 16 was no problem but their film cleaner scratched my negative! It had never happened before because they had never tested it properly! The film guides touched the film.

Test for yourself it may work but could have problems.

 

Good Luck,

 

Stephen

 

You are right. Months ago I asked for U16 to differents telecine labs here in Spain, Spirits and C-Realitys, and they can't to cover more image in the side of the perforation. I also asume that in this area is where to would find scratches.

Nobody mentions that in the U16 conversion is also necesary the conversion of the mask of screen...

All the best

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______________________________

>Our telecine suites have the capability to zoom in or out to get your

>full

>16mm frame onto video.  We are still planning on having HD transfers

>available in the beginning  of 2006.

_______________________________

 

I have explained to pro8 I will be framing in ultra 16mm AND what that means and they have said they can get my full 16mm frame onto Video... THIS is in response to my email explaining what my full frame would be...

 

Hi,

 

Its not really clear that they understand what you are talking about!

Its normal for a 16mm telecine transfer to have cut off. Zooming back to see the full frame could be just that. I have never seen the perfs area projected on a telecine (except 1 perf with a S16 gate).

When you shoot draw a framing chart so you can see if they can really get the whole image on tape!

8 years ago on a Rank Telecine in Switzerland I was unable to transfer S35, I had been assured no problem. Then I got all the bullshit nobody knows what S35 really is, I just opened the American Cinematographers Manuel and showed them!

 

Stephen

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As noted in other postings, "Ultra 16" is not recognized by SMPTE Standards. Many labs and post production facilities are not set up to handle it.

 

Simple example: some processing machines may abrade the area between the perfs if they use undercut rollers or any sprockets in the film path.

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I guess I am just an old stick in the mud, but I cannot understand why you all are beating this dead horse. Ultra 16 is a seldom used, flukey way to try to get more image area without spending the money to have a camera converted to Super16. It is never going to be an industry standard. And anyone who wants to change their camera like this is going to have to deal with process and telecine houses that will not be able to deal with the odd sized frame and the picture area invading the sprocket path. Knowing this, if you still want to do that to your camera, go ahead.

 

But do we need threads that go on for three pages, and two threads in a row on the "16mm Only" forum about this. Come on, there are better things to discuss. I mean this is like talking about politics and religion. Nobody is going to change anybody's mind.

 

Just my exasperated two cents worth,

-Tim Carroll

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Guest jeremy edge

I for one am glad people are beating this to death!

I wish I had been keeping count of how many posters in the last year on this board and others have been interested in this.I bet it would be enough tokeep at least one lab busy.

 

The more people that support the format then the more likely it is to succeed. if it succeeds then it is good news for every indie and student filmmaker who has managed to scrape up enough money from anything ranging to an old Arri S to a filmo. For they could easily covert their cameras to a larger surface are and a widescreen image which is the way of the future with HD as well as being the standard for theatrical films.

 

I agree with every naysayer on the reasons why ultra 16 is a tough pill to swallow.Lack of lab support, competition with an existing format and....well,those are the reasons.But for 2 years worth of threads on the topic noone has managed to prove it would not be a good idea! If it had come first you'd be hearing the same amount of naysaying against super 16. Im sure for quite awhile people got the response "Super 16 is not a format recognized by smpte standards" until one day...it finally was.

 

There is always the option of keeping your stocks fast.And then,crop your full 4;3 image. With the addition of kodak's new 7201 50d stock....along with some of the other existing fine grain stocks ....You can still get a great image.

 

But of course if you want to squeeze every last drop from that small frame....every little bit counts. And I'm behind anyone who is willing to stick their neck out and explore this not so new format.

 

Perhaps someone can have their ultra 16 footage also transferred as R16 cropped.So we can compare how the image is improved and determine if Ultra is really worth the fight?

 

I'd also love to hear an update as to how many and what labs have telecined ultra 16 footage for people on this board.

 

And if they were happy with the results.

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If this gives life to cameras that cant easily be converted to super. And there are a lot.. Ultra could help ALL 16mm users..

 

More people using 16mm, Means better and cheaper Film Stocks! The number of Users is Limited by the availability of 16mm Cameras and only the rich Or Production companies can afford newer ones..

 

Although perhaps some might think thats a good thing BUT the small scale user is no threat and new talent is needed..

 

The effect of All the hype with HDV means a lot of people mistakenly thinking it can replace film.. ULTRA can only help in keeping 16mm Going.. After all these 40 year old cameras are not easily replaceable and certainly unobtainable for new film makers who couldnt afford newer equipment..

 

SO to all our support network PLEASE THINK OF HOW IMPORTANT this could be to a Healthy 16mm Community.

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I can't understand why peoole are so negative about Ultra 16. I understand it's not a recognised standard and that.

 

But in this day and age where almost everyone I talk to is abandoning film and going to HD, (even hardcore cinematographers) and where most students don't even think about film and just work with video - Here Ultra 16 is ideal.

 

Especially with simple cameras like the Scoopic. This camera is ideal for somone who has come from the world of video or Super 8, it's great fun and easy. I am not saying it's a brilliant camera, it is just ideal for beginners to explore film. Sadly the Scoopic can't easily be converted to Super 16.

 

I am passionate about film and think it's vital to encourage new film - makers to work with film. I do a lot of training for Universities. In the UK many Universities and training facilities have a glut of media training courses and have the latest NLE editing systems, bought with grants from the European Social fund etc, but sadly little or no investment in film.

 

So if someone works with Ultra 16 where they check with the labs ensure that their rollers wont scratch the film, sit in on the telecine and see how much the telecine can pull back, I dont see any harm. I know it took years for Super 16 to become a standard.

 

Pav

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If Ultra16 threads annoy you, then simply don't read them!

It's not as if they're not clearly identified as such.

 

Anyway, I'm building a film scanner that will handle 16mm, Super16 and Ultra16, so obviously I don't give a rat's behind if anyone else can deal with it or not, and if it works superbly, may even start this as a service.

 

(I'm still up to my eyeballs in hardware and software engineering problems, so don't everyone inundate me with scan requests, but I'll certainly post info & samples when it happens.)

 

Plus, you guys are ignoring the fact that unlike Super16, it's not a modification that forces the camera into a "new" format.

The regular 16mm frame is STILL THERE, so you're not "screwed" as many naysayers have implied.

 

MP

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The regular 16mm frame is STILL THERE, so you're not "screwed" as many naysayers have implied.

 

MP

 

Unless the camera modification is done improperly, resulting in a film scratch or image intruding into the KEYKODE area. :rolleyes:

 

Unless you know exactly what you are doing, don't just take a file to your camera's gate -- leave it to someone expert in the modification.

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