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Is the Black Magic 4K sensor still a good camera in 2020


Max Moosbrugger

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Hi guys, I’m a young filmmaker looking to buy a camer. I’ve already made some shorts using my iPhone and the camcorders at school(old cannon vixias) and I feel like I’m at a point to justify buying my own camera. Im able to purchase a production 4K rig for under 400$. The following items it includes are...

15mm rod baseplate with Arri rosettes 

Dovetail plate

Top handle with cold shoe

I understand that this is an older model that black magic doesn’t support repairs to. My biggest issue is cost, I am willing to spend 2000$ on my initial setup and would like to use the extra money for lending. Most new cameras at this resolution I’ve found are micro 4 thirds sensor which I feel just won’t give me enough option for the types of shots I’m wanting to achieve. Is there anything I need to know about this camera and in your opinions is it a good idea to buy it. I feel like a super 35 sensor would give me the most flexibility in shot choice and style, but again I’m a beginner and don’t know as much as you proffesionals

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If I recall right I don't think people thought it was a very good camera even when it came out (it had ugly fixed pattern noise or something?)

If the price tag is $400 which seems pretty below market, I'd just buy it and flip it on eBay for more cash to open up your options.

Sensor size isn't super relevant to learning filmmaking, just shoot with what you have. I prefer Super35 above all other sensors though.

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it has a bit "harsh" color rendition especially on blues and yellows (not as bad as the original Red One has but something similar style I think). and the fixed pattern noise makes it pretty unusable at over 400ISO gain or otherwise underexposed. The fan also makes a little bit of noise though it hasn't been a problem for me.

They are pretty affordable now so they could be very useful for lower end stuff if you already have suitable EF lenses for it and can live without high frame rates, a bit lower dynamic range than more modern cameras, and the need to use external batteries to be able to shoot anything serious with it.

The Pocket4k could be very useful option as well if you already have the lenses or have possibility to get affordable lenses for it. 

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The old 4K BM isn't great - it's not good in low light and fixed pattern noise can be an issue. 

Also it's quiet hard to get a nice image out of it, it doesn't have great latitude and the colours look a bit off, its difficult to grade.

I shot this on it and it was hard work to grade to neutral:

The older black magic 2.5K produced much nicer images and it probably about the same price on the second hand market.

If you can afford it the Pocket 4K is orders of magnitude better - its an incredible camera for the money and worth saving for.  I work at a Uni and we have both in our kit room, the Pocket 4K's are always booked out and no-one touches the old 4K's these days.

The difference in sensor size between super35 and M4/3 is pretty minimal and not something that would affect the images shot. I find on the Pocket 4K if you have a lens in the 14-16mm range thats wide enough for most things. I can't imagine there is a shot you can achieve on super 35 that can't be done on M4/3.

The old 2.5k or 1080p pocket BM's are a bit more tricky on sensor size/lensing - but M4/3 is not a challenge and its easier to get adapters for cheap lenses in the format

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I don’t really have an issue with micro 4/3 specifically, it’s more that the lenses I’m planning on buying come in a small set and the widest focal length 35mm. Thanks for all this, I didn’t know anything about the color rendition, I’m definitely gonna look into that

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6 minutes ago, Max Moosbrugger said:

P.S. do u have footage of the black magic production 4K before grading just to get a feel for how off the colors are

I'll have a look at see if I still have anything tonight.

A 35mm lens is a little on the tight side. At the time I was shooting on the 4K, my widest lens was a 24mm and sometimes I still struggled in smaller locations with it.   Personally I'd find 35mm as my widest lens a little bit limiting

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I would definitely say from all he testing I have done the the original BMD 2.5K MFT/EF is a far, far better sensor than the 4K. The 4K sensor is pretty crap compared to the 2.5K sensor. the 2.5K has better ISO performance 800ISo vs 400 native, and much better dynamic range (I'd say at least a full stop). Don't let sensor size be the only thing your judging it by, yes it does not have a global shutter but it has a better rolling shutter than any Sony DSLR.

With a "fast-ish" prime lens i.e. f2.8 - depth of field isn't really an issue when you have to pull your own focus however sometimes it is challenging to get wider lenses. I started with classic Canon FD lenses, for my wide I went with a 24mm FD f2.8 S.S.C. prime (~$150 today) which is easy to adapt to MFT mount or an EF 24mm f2.8 if you go with the EF version.

With MAD MAX (2015) they used x10 BMD 2.5K cameras for crash cameras to match with their A-unit ARRI ALEXA's because DP John Seal found that it's sensor was the closest match the ALEXA's ALEV III Sensor. 

Edited by Chase Hagen
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the main problem with the original 2.5k BMCC is the aliasing/moire it creates. That is the main reason I never purchased one and always used the 4K model even when the 2.5k was available. 

When you have lots and lots of textures and straight lines in the image the moire starts to matter... it would have destroyed pretty much all of my shots if I had used the 2.5k but the 4K model was fine for most uses. 

The 4K is totally OK for the money as long as you don't underexpose it and as long as your SSD's can hold up the speed without dropping frames. I had lots of drop frame issues with the Kingston drives I used when shooting DNG and thus I shot most of the stuff in Prores instead of CinemaDNG ( prores made sense storage wise as well and was much easier to use in post)

Edited by aapo lettinen
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- What is your budget? $400 is not going to get you an actual working camera with lenses and everything you need to get going. So what can you spend? What results do you expect? 

- The original blackmagic cinema cameras have some real huge issues. Even though the 2.5k imager version does have a decent color science, the internal battery and SSD storage are huge issues. The batteries have a history of overheating and blowing up as well as having horrible power-on time. I have used them for a few productions and do not consider them a workable option these days, there are many other cameras that will work much better. The 4k imager version is real junk, horrible FPN (fixed pattern noise) issues, lower dynamic range, poor color science and moire.

- Sadly, a lens kit that starts at 35mm, isn't going to work with any cameras near the $400 price range. Even on a full frame imager, 35mm isn't quite wide enough for the real wide shots. So you shouldn't be dead-set on whatever lenses you're after, if budget is in the equation. You should be focused on getting a camera that can use as many lens selections as possible, so you have a wide range of options, which is why the M43rds mount is so great. The moment you restrict yourself to the exact lens you want to use, you also restrict the type of camera you can buy. 

As a young filmmaker, the focus should be on a very basic kit that is low-cost and gets ya going. Your first products don't have to be masterpieces, but they will need to show you're capable of telling a cinematic story. When I wanted to get back into the industry, I actually went with the blackmagic pocket cinema camera when they first came out in 2013. To me, it's a perfect beginner camera. It's 100% manual controls. It uses standard batteries, standard capture cards, shoots to a standard easy to edit codec, it has really good color science for the price, it's extremely small, which allows you to go anywhere with it and nobody will know its a cinema camera, it has the ability to run low-cost lenses for 16mm film cameras, so when you want a cinema zoom, you aren't spending $10k getting one. There are gobs of accessories including a viewfinder adaptor so you can stick your eye on the display for any outdoor shooting. The camera is cheap to buy used, mine have been very robust, they have literally been around the world in a backpack shooting documentaries by several filmmaking friends of mine and have always worked, even though the batteries do die fast if you're not careful. 

Sample: This piece was shot using Rokinon DS lenses, two Mole Richardson 1k lights, Sennheiser wireless lav plugged into the camera directly and a very basic tripod. All in all, my entire kit new with 2 bodies, 4 lenses, batteries, cards, backpack, tripod, lights, wireless mic's, shotgun mic's, it was around $3k total and honestly, it creates some pretty compelling imagery with not much post work required. 

 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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This has giving me so much to think about, thank you very much.  I think I’m more inclined now to use a micro 4/3ds camera. Btw, this video has stunning look. I prolly wouldn’t purchase the black magic 4K for the poor color science alone.

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Max, given your budget, a used GH5 will do you wonders!

Here's a feature I shot it on: http://www.ajyoungdp.com/mandao

And a short I shot it on: http://www.ajyoungdp.com/aftermath

It's also incredibly affordable! I recommend making sure you get one that has vLog enabled so you can start to mess around with shooting in logarithmic profiles.

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4 hours ago, Max Moosbrugger said:

This has giving me so much to think about, thank you very much. Btw, this video has stunning look.

Thanks, yea it was supposed to look like a classic 16mm doc, hard lighting, kind of a warm grade, etc. 

4 hours ago, Max Moosbrugger said:

 

 I think I’m more inclined now to use a micro 4/3ds camera.  I prolly wouldn’t purchase the black magic 4K for the poor color science alone.

Yea I think it's smart if you're on a budget. The original pocket is a great choice if you want a "different" look to everyone else and don't care about resolution. 

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Personally I think Blackmagic design rushed the BMPC4K out the door too fast. As they wanted to quickly get to market both a 4K camera and a "S35" camera, which the the BMPC4K did both! 

However in the process they reused the old original BMCC EF form factor, which isn't a great design, and also they used a sensor which was very flawed as it was their only option they could get off the shelf at a low enough cost. 

The BMPC4K ("BlackMagic Production Camera 4K") can basically be only used at 400 ISO (otherwise you get FPN issues and other problems). And even then the dynamic range isn't too great. 

Personally I do not recommend buying the Production 4K camera, I reckon for most people getting a newer mirrorless camera for cheap (X-T3/GH5/G9 are all 10bit and sub $1K on eBay), a different older cinema camera (F3/FS700/C300mk1), the newer URSA Mini 4K (which doesn't cost that much more, but at least pairs a much better body with the older flawed 4K sensor), or even an older Blackmagic camera (such as yes the OG BMCC MFT, OG BMPCC, or Micro Cinema Camera) would be a better pick for them. 

 

On 3/27/2020 at 6:44 PM, Max Moosbrugger said:

Im able to purchase a production 4K rig for under 400$. The following items it includes are...

15mm rod baseplate with Arri rosettes 

Dovetail plate

Top handle with cold shoe


HOWEVER... that price is really really good!

But for most people getting their first camera, that $400 would still be better off being put to buying a Panasonic G85 or an OG Pocket / Micro Cinema Camera. (which each cost around about the same price with a little hunting)
 

 

On 3/27/2020 at 6:44 PM, Max Moosbrugger said:

I understand that this is an older model that black magic doesn’t support repairs to.

Even if it was a newer model, the repair costs likely wouldn't make a camera worth fixing if it broke and wasn't still under warranty. So don't worry about its age, but just like any other BMD camera model with a questionable QC history do try to seriously test it before buying it secondhand. 

 

 

On 3/27/2020 at 6:44 PM, Max Moosbrugger said:

My biggest issue is cost, I am willing to spend 2000$ on my initial setup and would like to use the extra money for lending.


Lending? I hope you mean lenses

And yes, it is smart to have half or more of your budget set aside for lenses and accessories your camera will need. 

If your total budget is US$2K, then you could consider stretching up to consider buying any of a Panasonic GH5, G9, or Fujifilm X-T3. All of which are excellent hybrid cameras, and have an internal 10bit codec. They're all sub US$1K on eBay secondhand. 
 

 

On 3/27/2020 at 6:44 PM, Max Moosbrugger said:

Most new cameras at this resolution I’ve found are micro 4 thirds sensor which I feel just won’t give me enough option for the types of shots I’m wanting to achieve. Is there anything I need to know about this camera and in your opinions is it a good idea to buy it. I feel like a super 35 sensor would give me the most flexibility in shot choice and style, but again I’m a beginner and don’t know as much as you proffesionals


Ignore people who try to scaremonger you from buying a Micro Four Thirds camera. As MFT simply offers the biggest bang for buck there is for a starting filmmaker, and it is a very well rounded ecosystem with well polished cameras. 

Plus the difference in sensor size between a MFT camera and a S35 camera isn't really that massive at all, and Super 35 has been the industry standard for many decades. 

The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K has a so called "crop factor" (vs FF) of 1.7x
While Micro Four Thirds cameras such as the Panasonic GH2 / GH5S / Blackmagic Pocket 4K / Z Cam E2 / etc have a "crop factor" of 1.8x

Honestly, nothing at all that should be a deal breaker for you!!

 

  

On 3/27/2020 at 6:49 PM, Max Field said:

If the price tag is $400 which seems pretty below market, I'd just buy it and flip it on eBay for more cash to open up your options.

The cheapest Production 4K to sell on ebay recently are a little over US$600, so yes, $400 is a steal! Although with the current economic crisis a $400 Production 4K before the end of this year wouldn't surprise me. Especially as in person trades off eBay can often be found for cheaper than usual eBay prices. 

  

On 3/27/2020 at 11:09 PM, Phil Connolly said:

The older black magic 2.5K produced much nicer images and it probably about the same price on the second hand market.

If you can afford it the Pocket 4K is orders of magnitude better - its an incredible camera for the money and worth saving for.  I work at a Uni and we have both in our kit room, the Pocket 4K's are always booked out and no-one touches the old 4K's these days.

The difference in sensor size between super35 and M4/3 is pretty minimal and not something that would affect the images shot. I find on the Pocket 4K if you have a lens in the 14-16mm range thats wide enough for most things. I can't imagine there is a shot you can achieve on super 35 that can't be done on M4/3.

The old 2.5k or 1080p pocket BM's are a bit more tricky on sensor size/lensing - but M4/3 is not a challenge and its easier to get adapters for cheap lenses in the format



I agree with all points here. 
(the point about the old BMCC 2.5K is why you should only ever buy it in MFT mount and *NOT* EF mount! I'd only take a BMCC EF if it was offered to me for an insanely cheap price, such as say just a couple of hundred bucks then I'd use it as a B Cam to my existing OG BMPCC)

 

  

On 3/28/2020 at 5:37 AM, Max Moosbrugger said:

I don’t really have an issue with micro 4/3 specifically, it’s more that the lenses I’m planning on buying come in a small set and the widest focal length 35mm.

What lenses specifically???

Even for S35, then a 35mm lens is not wide at all. You'll need better than that!

Edited by David Peterson
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On 3/28/2020 at 9:08 AM, Tyler Purcell said:

So you shouldn't be dead-set on whatever lenses you're after, if budget is in the equation. You should be focused on getting a camera that can use as many lens selections as possible, so you have a wide range of options, which is why the M43rds mount is so great. The moment you restrict yourself to the exact lens you want to use, you also restrict the type of camera you can buy. 

"have a wide range of options, which is why the M43rds mount is so great"

THIS! Is why Micro Four Thirds is so great as one of the very best lens mounts there is, it opens you up to one of the widest range of possible lenses you can use. 

 

On 3/29/2020 at 11:08 AM, AJ Young said:

Max, given your budget, a used GH5 will do you wonders!

Here's a feature I shot it on: http://www.ajyoungdp.com/mandao

And a short I shot it on: http://www.ajyoungdp.com/aftermath

It's also incredibly affordable! I recommend making sure you get one that has vLog enabled so you can start to mess around with shooting in logarithmic profiles.


Absolutely! A Panasonic GH5 is still today an amazingly solid workhorse, and selling for great prices on eBay. 

The Panasonic G9 got a 10bit upgrade and offers a lot of what the GH5 does, but at a bit lower cost. 

The Panasonic G85 loses 10bit and slow motion (aside from basic 1080 60fps), but still gives you the same 8bit quality as a GH5, the same IBIS, all at a much much much lower price if your budget is really tight. 

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