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Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

Why artists are so flaky?

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I have dealt with lots of artists over the years. From painters to draftsmen to comix artists. For the last few years it has been comix artists.  I routinely run ads for artists and a number apply for the jobs. I review their work and many times give them a sample job for $20 - $25 to get going. The jobs are nothing too complex, but many of them flake out and don't even do the first job. Or if they do the first job it takes them weeks and the time agreed to is within 3 or 4 days. Just terrible. 

I' don't have a lot of $$ to throw at the art projects. But I have many great comix ideas, I'm of the school of Robert Crumb. I just can't draw, so I hires artists to do my ideas.

I was working long term with a Argentinian artist for over a year. But then he flaked out. Now I got 2 gals I'm working with. One is from Poland, the other one from who knows where. But they seem to be doing good with the jobs.

The gals work in a little different style than male artists. I didn't think I'd like women artists, thought they would make the art too girly. And some of them do. But so what, I have a wide variety of likes when it comes to art. I'd give you a sample to illustrate my 'too girly' point, but it is hardcore XXX and it may not go over well here, plus it is political. So just take my word for it.

Here is one from the Polish artist on the coronavirus.

nsfw

 https://archive.org/search.php?query=Opening The Mail During Coronavirus Dagger

Here is a series I am working on called Cell Phone People. The old Argentinian artist did them last year.

nsfw

https://archive.org/search.php?query=cell%20phone%20people%20series%20nano

The artists don't have to be super reliable. Just be half-ass reliable is all I ask. The Polish gal is going to get me an animation next month when I get more $$. She is making a pig pop out of a bag. I hope to use it in my films. A 'pig in a poke' production type of thing. Huge % of my films are found and bought blind. Hence they are pigs in a poke. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I know this doesn't really have anything to do with the topic, but I love those cell phone people images.

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Posted (edited)

That is great Leanne! Glad you like them.

While it is too early to say, the lady artists may be more reliable then the men. Time will tell. And my sampling is small, so nothing conclusive.

Another interesting thing I've noticed is most of the artists that apply for the jobs are not in America. Looks like American artists don't want to work for low $$. Most of my jobs pay $25 for a single panel and think I paid $65 for the 4 cell phone people job. I tell them do it digital and easy. I give them a pretty free reign to work as they like. I give them the basic story line then let them go. That is part of the fun seeing what they come up with. So I am not demanding or nitpicky. But American artists just are not interested.

I had a very good man from Colombia. But he only lasted a couple of comix job. He was an excellent artist, but took way too long.

I once gave a comix job when Trump was going to be censored by Congress. Before the art was inked they had changed it to an impeachment. So the art had to be reworked. Political comix are timely. Timeliness  is a problem with flaky artists.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Posted (edited)

The Argentinian artist used to write me every few weeks looking for work. I get lot of comix ideas, but don't get ideas as fast as he wanted to work.

I used to ask him, you got any ideas? Tell me and I'll pay you to do it if I like it.

For over a year we worked together and he never had 1 idea. When I would look at his portfolio nothing impressed me. Yes, it was decent art, but boring material as far as I was concerned. Some artists may have talent, but may be lacking in creative abilities. Same way as I have some talent for creative ideas but lack the technical skills. 

One thing I've noticed about artists, and I learned this in the early 70's when I used to sneak into the old Art Center School in L.A. to sit in on some of the classes. The natural genius always surpassed the ones that tried to buy their abilities.

Almost all of the natural genius's work were masterpieces when it came time for the weekly critique. Whereas the non-genius would sometimes produce something great, but you could not bank on it...their work was more of a crapshoot. The genius works natural and relaxed whereas non-genius has to work hard and force their work.

I see this in my own photo / cine' work. My still work is relaxed and easy...it is as easy as breathing. My cine' work is not natural, it is hard, takes concentration and full of fear of failure. Most of the time when I take on a still related project there is no doubt it will be good. I know my still abilities in the areas I work in.  I can't say the same about my cine' work. That sums up the difference between the 2 genres....relaxed and natural vs forced and unnatural.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Given the nature of what you're commissioning I wouldn't be surprised if they took it because they were slow on gigs and then their regular jobs picked back up.

For $25 a panel, you get what you pay for.

  • Upvote 1

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Posted (edited)

Max beat me to it. You get what you pay for. Since you mention Robert Crumb, he is an amazing draughtsman and his unique style perfectly fits his humor. A completely different league.

Edited by Uli Meyer

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I work in this commission based artist community and it's horrible. Everyone is lazy and over-books themselves. It really sucks. 

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Actors.

I have been told that one of the reasons actors get driven to set is that part of the job of the driver is to go and drag the actor out of the hotel room if they can't get out of bed.

I have worked with wonderful actors who arrived fifteen minutes early and did a great job. I have - frankly more commonly - also had people turn up an hour and a half late without apology and ask if there was time for coffee.

Some of the people who excluded themselves from future employability in that way were actually very capable. I wonder if a completely scatterbrained approach to life correlates with acting ability somehow.

Even so, I've not had any reason to return to the less reliable types.

P

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Uli Meyer said:

Max beat me to it. You get what you pay for. Since you mention Robert Crumb, he is an amazing draughtsman and his unique style perfectly fits his humor. A completely different league.

 

Now Uli, what you and Max propose is that no one that works for a low fee is reliable or does good work.

Sure, Crumb is fantastic! No debate there. But you have to accept your budget and work within it. And even so, how many times do we hear about flaky and rich actors and artists?  Other option is not to do anything unless rich. In my case, my lifetime 51 year body of work would have never happened if I had to wait to get rich before I did anything.

nsfw

https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com/2017/08/30/its-the-birthday-of-american-cartoonist-r-crumb/

Most of what I commission is underground comix. When I mention Crumb I am not comparing his technique to what I commission. My comparison is with the subject matter. Crumb is the godfather of underground comix.

nsfw

https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com/2016/08/28/when-history-must-distill-what-defines-underground-comix-into-the-creative-genius-that-is-the-alpha-and-the-omega-of-underground-comix-there-can-be-no-argument-dispute-or-question-that-name-is-cr/

And even though my art is produced on a low budget, it is decent work. Especially when you consider the price. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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1 hour ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Now Uli, what you and Max propose is that no one that works for a low fee is reliable or does good work.

Not no one, just less than 2%

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7 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Now Uli, what you and Max propose is that no one that works for a low fee is reliable or does good work.

All the great cartoonists, illustrators and animators I worked with are obsessed with what they do. Many will work for a lower fee if they believe in a project or for the chance to do something unique or different. It is one thing to be a creator and invested in your work and another to be asked by a complete stranger to draw someone else's idea for $25. Would you expect good and reliable work from a plumber for $25?

 

8 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

In my case, my lifetime 51 year body of work would have never happened if I had to wait to get rich before I did anything.

That's your body of work. Nobody else's. That has nothing to do with paying a stranger $25 for a drawing.

 

9 hours ago, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

But you have to accept your budget and work within it

It is your budget someone has to accept. If they do, what do you think is the reason for it?

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Artists and creatives are like anyone else, some have a good work ethic and some don't.

I would say in general most of the people I've encountered (at all levels) in the film/tv industry have good work ethics, but the nature of the work weed's out those that aren't up for it. In order to get to a certain level, you usually need a certain amount of commitment to the work.

I also teach film production and encounter students the like the idea of being creatives, artists, filmmakers but don't have the work ethic, they never even get started. You need a degree of persistence to just get your foot in the door. The less committed fall by the wayside way before that. I've encountered some flakey people on v low budget indie indie productions - but even then it's pretty rare.

I've only had an actor turn up late (due to unprofessionalism) once and the person cast was a model not an actor. Actors are usually good. Maybe I've been lucky, but my belief has always been that "good" actors in terms of performance are usually good professionals. So on my personal projects I've been able to weed out any difficult people during the casting process. I've not worked with many full on mega stars, so it may be different at the very high end. 

I used to be a technician at a drama school (East 15), the workload they give the students is crazy. By the time they graduate they are under no illusions about work ethic etc.. So if you cast trained actors or theatre actors your usually fine. I've only encountered prema donna type "difficult" actors in the am dram world.

Also on low budget work you have to understand people might need to drop out of your job to take a better paid opportunity as they have to live.  At the low budget end you have to be flexible if you want good talent and have a back up plan in place if someone becomes unavailable. For instance no sane actor is going to fully commit to your indie short and potentially lose a HBO series to do it.  I have managed to get very good people to work on my projects at a fraction of their normal fee, either because they liked the script, it offered an opportunity to do something different and it landed in a gap in their schedule. Luck is in involved. 

  • Upvote 2

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An interesting project I'd like to undertake someday is to give artists the same instructions and see what they produce. I've done it in small ways with their initial test jobs. And really, it does not take that much $$ to do it. But I don't have excess $$ to devote to 'fun' things like that. It is either do fun tests or do the actual art projects.

We sometimes see the same thing with photogs that shoot the same subject in a shootout. And of course movie remakes. But movie remakes are not really comparable since tech and time changes things so much. 

For recent test jobs I had the artists work on my Greta Thunberg 'How Dare You' series. (Sorry, can't post em here due to content and politics.) 

One male artist was given a script of Greta by candlelight...but he flaked out on his first test job. Why do they waste my time? Everything needed is given up front. No mystery. Why accept the job if you know you are a flake? Maybe that is the issue...flakes don't know they are flakes.

Next month when I get more $ I will give the 'Greta by candlelight' job to someone else. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Phil for the feedback. What broke the back of my Argentinian artist was a 5 panel job for $65 I gave him. Usually he did single panel jobs with little issues. Most of my jobs would not make a material difference in a person time schedule since they are quick and simple. But he did write me a month later saying he got a 'real' internet art job in Europe and was having trouble getting my art done. 

Here is the Argentinian's piece I commissioned to honor Spike Lee's 30th anniversary of Do The Right Thing. It may have been $45 - $55...can't remember. 

https://archive.org/search.php?query=do the right thing teoli

Of course, some people will say my piece is no honor. To them I say...you don't like my art...go pay for your own goddamn art!

Anyway, love comix art. If I was rich or even slightly well off you should see what I could produce. I owe it all to Crumb. Plus he was a major influence in my archival work. Crumb is an outstanding archivist in his own right. Crumb is the godfather of it all.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Uli Meyer said:

All the great cartoonists, illustrators and animators I worked with are obsessed with what they do. Many will work for a lower fee if they believe in a project or for the chance to do something unique or different. It is one thing to be a creator and invested in your work and another to be asked by a complete stranger to draw someone else's idea for $25. Would you expect good and reliable work from a plumber for $25?

 

That's your body of work. Nobody else's. That has nothing to do with paying a stranger $25 for a drawing.

 

It is your budget someone has to accept. If they do, what do you think is the reason for it?

You imply I should not accept the budget I have to work with. A dedicated artist finds a way to get the job done, if it can be done, irrespective of critics and low $$ Uli. 

That is why I run ads, I let the person, that is willing to do the job, contact me. I let them look over the work and see if it fits their needs. 

Here is a piece I wrote a while back called:  'Is it easier for the rich photog?'

Gives you a rundown on how $$ can and cannot help a creative. If $$ was the only deciding factor, then only the richest creatives would create the best work. But we all know $$ only goes so far Uli.

nsfw

https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/is-it-easier-for-the-rich-photog/

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Here are a couple other things to consider. First, art, like any creation endeavor, is 99% prep and 1% execution. Sure, an experienced artist can sit down and beautifully render a scene in minutes. But an experienced artist isn't working for $65/page.

An inexperienced artist, who doesn't know what they don't know, easily bites off more than they can chew--leading them to be flaky, or to really practice/think about what they're going to do, leading to them taking longer. It's easier to ghost someone than it it to admit they were wrong and apologizing for wasting their time.

And here's the thing: experience isn't a definable term. I have a friend who is an incredible illustrator, I've known him most of my life, he has a website, a portfolio, the whole thing. But he's still not a professional illustrator--it's still something he does as a side gig. He doesn't spend every hour in that flow state that allows full time artists to crank out amazing work on a whim.

Lastly, I agree that if they don't like the price, they shouldn't agree to the job. However, even if they do, think about the psychology of it. If you are walking down the street and see $25 (or $65) you're like hell yeah, I want that. But, you go to pick it up an a genie emerges that says you need to do 5 hours of work for it--you still want that money, there's just not a lot of motivation to earn it.

That's what's going on. By accepting that job, that's the equivalent of deciding to pick up the money, it's an impulse. Then reality sets in, and it turns out not to be such a good idea after all.

 

 

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"flake" is the wrong word in the freelance business. I've had to drop out from helping on friends projects countless times due to paid gigs coming in. Sometimes you just have to prioritise the better paid work to survive.

Same with agreeing to do too much, you bid/pitch on way more jobs then you get - so to stay in work you have to say yes to a lot of stuff. At times your end up being in the fortunate/unfortunate position of having too many jobs on the table and you have to drop out. Thats not being flaky, just surviving. As long as your up front and honest, while giving enough time for them to find replacements - I think thats fine. Also productions and schedules slip, causing clashes that you didn't foresee or projects taking much much longer for all manner of reasons. 

As a freelancer "my word is my bond" is a luxury I can't afford 

I always go in with good intentions as well, but creative practice is creative practice and nothing is certain. I bid on a job because I think I can do it but sometimes it can just go wrong.

About 5 years ago I completely failed to deliver a script I was commissioned to write. I went in with good intentions and was really excited about getting the job. But I couldn't ever find any flow, once I blew a couple of deadlines I completely lost confidence in my ability to write.  I was a mess, still holding onto the hope that I could pull it back, telling the client I was making progress.

Spending days staring at a blank screen. Dark days, artistic practice is hard and when it goes wrong, the emotional fall out can be devastating. It took me 4 years to get the courage up to start writing again and i took on my first paid commission since last year. It was really daunting.

So when your hiring someone in an artistic capacity, it can all go wrong, due to the nature of being human.  Again I wasn't trying to be "flaky", thats the wrong word. I don't think its flaky to try and then fail. Often it goes wrong because your trying too hard and being too critical upon yourself

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That's different from the sort of unprofessionalism I was thinking of. Creative block is one thing. Turning up at 0945 for an 0800 call is idiocy.

P

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1 minute ago, Phil Rhodes said:

That's different from the sort of unprofessionalism I was thinking of. Creative block is one thing. Turning up at 0945 for an 0800 call is idiocy.

P

Do people do that intentionally? Most production crews/casts I've encountered are pretty good, espousing the mantra of if your "on time, your late".

I have only been embarrassingly late once on an important job and that was due to my car's alternator dying in the middle of nowhere. I was about 3 hours late for a client attended shoot, not good. Once it's happened once, you don't want to repeat it. In that case I very nearly lost the client. So I don't see how you could be generally unprofessional and stay in work.

Pretty much every "actor" I've encountered that rocks up late and takes the piss, usually less good at acting. Likewise - actors with a good work ethic, usually "act" better. The unprofessional but genius actors, I find are in the minority - basically I've only read about them in William Goldman books rather than encountered in general production. 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/8/2020 at 4:14 AM, Daniel D. Teoli Jr. said:

Looks like American artists don't want to work for low $$. Most of my jobs pay $25 for a single panel

You nailed on the head the reason why. 

If you want professionalism, then you need to pay professional rates. (which you're nowhere anywhere near)

Otherwise, you get amateurs, which means they have amateurish traits... such as being flaky. 

 

  

On 4/8/2020 at 10:20 AM, Phil Rhodes said:

Actors.

I have been told that one of the reasons actors get driven to set is that part of the job of the driver is to go and drag the actor out of the hotel room if they can't get out of bed.

I have worked with wonderful actors who arrived fifteen minutes early and did a great job. I have - frankly more commonly - also had people turn up an hour and a half late without apology and ask if there was time for coffee.

Some of the people who excluded themselves from future employability in that way were actually very capable. I wonder if a completely scatterbrained approach to life correlates with acting ability somehow.

Even so, I've not had any reason to return to the less reliable types.

Interesting point about drivers, hadn't thought about that before, but I think you're right. 

Although, I reckon the major reason is because actors can often be out of town, thus won't have a car and need to be picked up from their hotel anyway. 

  

On 4/8/2020 at 10:03 PM, Phil Connolly said:

Also on low budget work you have to understand people might need to drop out of your job to take a better paid opportunity as they have to live.  At the low budget end you have to be flexible if you want good talent and have a back up plan in place if someone becomes unavailable. For instance no sane actor is going to fully commit to your indie short and potentially lose a HBO series to do it.  I have managed to get very good people to work on my projects at a fraction of their normal fee, either because they liked the script, it offered an opportunity to do something different and it landed in a gap in their schedule. Luck is in involved. 



Yes, if you get someone (be it crew, or talent, or whoever) to work for below normal market rates (especially if waaay below market rates) then you should be give them in return at least some flexibility, and be accepting and have no hard feelings if they have to drop this project to take another one which can pay their bills. 

 

  

On 4/9/2020 at 3:31 AM, Phil Connolly said:

"flake" is the wrong word in the freelance business. I've had to drop out from helping on friends projects countless times due to paid gigs coming in. Sometimes you just have to prioritise the better paid work to survive.

Same with agreeing to do too much, you bid/pitch on way more jobs then you get - so to stay in work you have to say yes to a lot of stuff. At times your end up being in the fortunate/unfortunate position of having too many jobs on the table and you have to drop out. Thats not being flaky, just surviving. As long as your up front and honest, while giving enough time for them to find replacements - I think thats fine. Also productions and schedules slip, causing clashes that you didn't foresee or projects taking much much longer for all manner of reasons. 


Agreed. 

Except: you should always do your absolute best effort possible to avoid conflicts. 

And if you do get a scheduling clash, then tell them asap but first find a replacement who you trust that you can recommend to the production. Thus, at least you're saving them the trouble of finding someone to replace you as you've already done that. 

Edited by David Peterson

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I'm annoyed that people ignore the elephant in the room.

People are going to pigeon hole you as non-essential and under the table business if you're commissioning NSFW things, which is literally all you've linked in this thread. Wouldn't be surprised if many of these artists are contacting you with a burner account so their reputation doesn't take a hit for working on whatever you have (or take a hit for flaking).

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6 hours ago, Max Field said:

if you're commissioning NSFW things, which is literally all you've linked in this thread.

A good point to highlight. 

Although not EVERYTHING, it definitely seems to be the vast majority. 

Plus not just in this thread, but lots of other threads on this forum, he might link to blog post yet tags the blog post with "NSFW". Which is fair enough, but it seems like why did the blog post have to be "NSFW"?? Seems a tad bit gratuitous 

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On 4/8/2020 at 1:56 AM, Uli Meyer said:

All the great cartoonists, illustrators and animators I worked with are obsessed with what they do. Many will work for a lower fee if they believe in a project or for the chance to do something unique or different. It is one thing to be a creator and invested in your work and another to be asked by a complete stranger to draw someone else's idea for $25. Would you expect good and reliable work from a plumber for $25?

 

That's your body of work. Nobody else's. That has nothing to do with paying a stranger $25 for a drawing.

 

It is your budget someone has to accept. If they do, what do you think is the reason for it?

Uli, you remind me of a guy I read about on a photo forum.

As an artist you have to dream and try things or you are sunk. Art is all about dreaming of impossible things. If I had your midset I would have quit before I started.

Here is an old post I wrote many years ago on this subject about the guy from the photo forum that gave up before he even tried.  

nsfw

https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/dont-quit-before-you-even-start-work-blind/

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/15/2020 at 3:14 PM, Max Field said:

I'm annoyed that people ignore the elephant in the room.

People are going to pigeon hole you as non-essential and under the table business if you're commissioning NSFW things, which is literally all you've linked in this thread. Wouldn't be surprised if many of these artists are contacting you with a burner account so their reputation doesn't take a hit for working on whatever you have (or take a hit for flaking).

Well, we all have our likes and dislikes of areas we want to work in. If a nice sunset, interesting architectural building or pretty flower thumbs its nose at me I may shoot it, but that is not the focus of my work.

I am not a hired gun that has to work on material they don't like for $$. I generally only work on material that interests me in some way. Although this is not true 100% of the time, as supporting material that holds little interest to me may be important to include in a project. 

I'm an underground social documentary photographer, underground archivist, underground experimental filmmaker and deal with underground comix art. NSFW is a big part of my work, but it is not the only part. I also have political comix, but politics are frowned on here. And my audio archive does not have much NSFW material in it.

 

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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On 4/8/2020 at 8:31 AM, Phil Connolly said:

"flake" is the wrong word in the freelance business. I've had to drop out from helping on friends projects countless times due to paid gigs coming in. Sometimes you just have to prioritise the better paid work to survive.

Same with agreeing to do too much, you bid/pitch on way more jobs then you get - so to stay in work you have to say yes to a lot of stuff. At times your end up being in the fortunate/unfortunate position of having too many jobs on the table and you have to drop out. Thats not being flaky, just surviving. As long as your up front and honest, while giving enough time for them to find replacements - I think thats fine. Also productions and schedules slip, causing clashes that you didn't foresee or projects taking much much longer for all manner of reasons. 

As a freelancer "my word is my bond" is a luxury I can't afford 

I always go in with good intentions as well, but creative practice is creative practice and nothing is certain. I bid on a job because I think I can do it but sometimes it can just go wrong.

About 5 years ago I completely failed to deliver a script I was commissioned to write. I went in with good intentions and was really excited about getting the job. But I couldn't ever find any flow, once I blew a couple of deadlines I completely lost confidence in my ability to write.  I was a mess, still holding onto the hope that I could pull it back, telling the client I was making progress.

Spending days staring at a blank screen. Dark days, artistic practice is hard and when it goes wrong, the emotional fall out can be devastating. It took me 4 years to get the courage up to start writing again and i took on my first paid commission since last year. It was really daunting.

So when your hiring someone in an artistic capacity, it can all go wrong, due to the nature of being human.  Again I wasn't trying to be "flaky", thats the wrong word. I don't think its flaky to try and then fail. Often it goes wrong because your trying too hard and being too critical upon yourself

Well, some of that makes sense Phil. If we are out of our depth, best to not make things worse and hold up a project. But did you apologize for you failings or just 'flake' out?  Personally I don't think I've ever got an apology from a flake.  

When doing a project called 'A day in the life of a drag queen' I interviewed 22 applicants for the project via Craig's List. Over a 6 week period I hired all 22 of them for a paying gig of $400 for +/- 6 hours of shooting.  21 of those that applied flaked out, they never came through with the shoot. Only 1 person came through and it was just barely. 

To update things...

Last week I heard back from my Argentinean artist after many months hiatus. I told him about my other lady artist in Poland I've been working with. I told him I can't just dump her and go back to him exclusively since that would be unfair to her as she has produced a lot of projects for me. But I told him some of her art is too girly for me and I would consider giving him commissions in the future that need more of a males hand at the art.

I told him all he would have had to do was keep in touch with me and let me know what was happening and I could have probably held up the jobs for him. But lack of communication on his part cost him and it cost me. I had to waste my time interviewing tons of flakey artists to find a good one.

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