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Lab Damaged 5 rolls out of 14 - 35mm


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Hello,

I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance on a situation. 

I've spent about 5 weeks shooting about 31 x 400' of 50D. I've got a cooler with me that contains 20 rolls of 35mm 200T, that I intend to also shoot. The fridge contains 7 rolls of 50D x 35mm, and 10 rolls of 50D x 35mm are enroute from EK. I imagine I'll shoot it all over the course of the next 3-5 weeks. This is relevant later.

I'm shooting with an Arri 235, on the surface of the sun - also known as NM. Today, it was 97 degrees with a 15 mph wind. I'm doing about two setups per day, on my own. Every shot requires 95# of sandbags, and I have no grips or assistants. It's kind of rough work.

I sent 14 rolls to the lab in June. No problems. Then 14 more rolls on Monday. Today, I got an email telling me that the film broke during processing and about 5 rolls were destroyed. Kind of a bummer.

The break occurred where a mid-roll magazine switch happened. I've been shooting establishing shots in one mag, and action shots in another. I do this because action shots potentially take 100-200' of film, and I don't want to run out. It's hard to shoot establishing shots after the action shots, because continuity is broken by rapidly changing weather.

When I swap mags, the film sometimes becomes pinched in the mag throat, because I'm doing the change in my car - which is very confined. On a few occasions, I've noticed that I pinched part of the film loop. I pull the film into the camera and it winds up creased. But I've never had a severe crease that the film gate got mad about or that had a broken edge, as far as I know. I tend to notice such things.

The lab seems to be running on a skeleton staff. I'm glad they exist and I like them. They haven't disappointed me in the past. I wonder if skeleton staff isn't as good as regular staff.

I asked lab to replace the film stock. What that would mean here is not charging me for processing and not charging me for telecine. The cost of those equal (within $100 or so) the cost of the lost film. They refused. I guess their position is that I am responsible for the break. But I feel that the lab bears responsibility for ensuring that whatever they get will make it through their machine.

I expected them to simply agree to eat the cost of processing and telecine to compensate for the stock. I thought this was industry standard for film manufacturers and labs. I've never actually ever had a lab ruin a roll - not in 47 years of shooting film - so I don't actually have any direct experience.

Their refusal to waive charges to compensate for the film loss is particularly frustrating because I have to bear the cost of an additional ~5 days of shooting to replace the footage. I'll incur lodging, car rental, lens rental, tripod rental, and other expenses during that time. I don't expect them to compensate me for incidental damages, but it seems like the incidental damages should make them feel a bit crummier about the situation.

I conducted some experiments this evening with film, my camera, and a mag. I pinched the film to varying degrees. I was not able to break any of them by applying strictly a longitudinal load to the film. The only way I could get it to fail is if I bent i the film, like I was trying to tear it. When a side load was applied, I was able to tear it at the pinch.

This leaves me wondering if an inexperienced machine operator did something that caused unusual loads to be applied to the film and made a defect tear that would not normally tear,

If I were running a film lab and I messed up someone's hard work, I would waive all charges as a natural reflex. I wouldn't have to think about it for a second. And if that reflex didn't kick in, I'd at least think about whether waiving fees is the best move in terms of maximizing future profits. Like, if I don't waive fees, I may not get the rest of the job or any business at all from this customer in the future. 

I'm interested in gathering information from others to guide my approach to this situation.

Thanks in advance for any wisdom/anecdotes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dennis Toeppen
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Normally a lab tech feels all film over, i. e. has the entire rolls running between fingers for detecting faults. Torn edges automatically lead to a cut, the film needs to be joined back either with staples or tape. Then it can be sent through a machine processor. The procedure comes from times when notches and holes were punched into the film in camera to indicate a cut.

My advice is to come to clear terms with the enterprise in order to avoid more breaks. If they don’t check the material in the dark, change.

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8 hours ago, Simon Wyss said:

Normally a lab tech feels all film over, i. e. has the entire rolls running between fingers for detecting faults. Torn edges automatically lead to a cut, the film needs to be joined back either with staples or tape. Then it can be sent through a machine processor. The procedure comes from times when notches and holes were punched into the film in camera to indicate a cut.

My advice is to come to clear terms with the enterprise in order to avoid more breaks. If they don’t check the material in the dark, change.

That seems about right. Lab should engage in due diligence before putting customer's costly footage into their machine, and lab should use qualified/experienced staff for this step.

 

 

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OP, can't advise about the tech. Can only reply as to standards.

We are in a new world now, and it is not just from the corrosive virus. Standards have gone to hell in many areas and pride of workmanship has been replaced with a 'just give me my paycheck' mentality. Honesty is also under attack. The lab may have made a mistake on their end and it will be charged to you instead of them eating the loss. Can you prove otherwise? You depend on them for honesty. Not much you can do about it now midstream.

Try another lab next time or maybe suck it up and start shooting digital if you find it hard to get your film processed properly without wrecking a project. What would have happened if you had given them the entire shoot at once and you can't reshoot the material? 

Good luck!

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1 hour ago, Brian Drysdale said:

An editor friend with lots of experience of UK labs says that they deny things. He put it more strongly, so you have to push back. 

In today's cancel culture, with low prospects for film processing choices, it would not surprise me for labs to ban troublemakers. 

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
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These things do happen very rarely at all labs.

Five rolls is 2000ft which should theoretically be the whole film processor through, really only the film that is in the developer bath at the time the film broke will be overcooked in the bath, the rest should be recoverable with some possible damage.

We had a 35mm commercial we ran about three years ago and a large truck took out a pole on the street and killed the electricity when we were running. Once we got it back on I think we had lost less than 1200ft in the developer tank on the PhotoMec and the rest we were able to get out and rewash with ok results. Not something any lab wants to tell a customer but it was a fluke.

Lab techs are suppose to find nik's and slight tears in the stock and reject them for processing or process them separately, that is what we do. There may have been something that the tech missed in the dark by hand, like a crease they thought would be ok and was actually torn.

Technically the damage should be covered under the production's purchased negative insurance as lab processing is "at the risk" of the production.

I would have another conversation with the lab and ask how much was overcooked in the developer and how much was in the other baths or the drybox and what can be done to recover that footage as it can be scanned and digital tools can be used to clean problems up.

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3 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

These things do happen very rarely at all labs.

Five rolls is 2000ft which should theoretically be the whole film processor through, really only the film that is in the developer bath at the time the film broke will be overcooked in the bath, the rest should be recoverable with some possible damage.

We had a 35mm commercial we ran about three years ago and a large truck took out a pole on the street and killed the electricity when we were running. Once we got it back on I think we had lost less than 1200ft in the developer tank on the PhotoMec and the rest we were able to get out and rewash with ok results. Not something any lab wants to tell a customer but it was a fluke.

Lab techs are suppose to find nik's and slight tears in the stock and reject them for processing or process them separately, that is what we do. There may have been something that the tech missed in the dark by hand, like a crease they thought would be ok and was actually torn.

Technically the damage should be covered under the production's purchased negative insurance as lab processing is "at the risk" of the production.

I would have another conversation with the lab and ask how much was overcooked in the developer and how much was in the other baths or the drybox and what can be done to recover that footage as it can be scanned and digital tools can be used to clean problems up.

Thanks for the very detailed, thorough, helpful response. 

The lab has agreed to waive all charges for developing of 14 rolls (9 good, 5 bad) and telecine. That covers the film stock loss and then some. I'm glad they did the right thing.

I am going to ask Athos about this. Perhaps incidental damages are covered by my policy.

Have a good weekend.

 

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14 minutes ago, Dennis Toeppen said:

Thanks for the very detailed, thorough, helpful response. 

The lab has agreed to waive all charges for developing of 14 rolls (9 good, 5 bad) and telecine. That covers the film stock loss and then some. I'm glad they did the right thing.

I am going to ask Athos about this. Perhaps incidental damages are covered by my policy.

Have a good weekend.

 

I would also see what is possibly recoverable in the damaged film.

As a person who runs a lab I know it is a hard thing to have to tell a client that there is a loss and especially these days when the world is crazy.

Good luck.

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12 hours ago, Robert Houllahan said:

I would also see what is possibly recoverable in the damaged film.

As a person who runs a lab I know it is a hard thing to have to tell a client that there is a loss and especially these days when the world is crazy.

Good luck.

There wouldn't be anything worthwhile in any partial roll. Each roll is a scene at a particular place - establishing shots, action, wrap up. It would be impossible to match sky from a roll with a reshoot of just a couple shots. In some cases, establishing shots are on a half roll and action is on a whole roll. If any part of 1.5 rolls is bad, all of it is bad.

That's what makes this one so frustrating.

I reshot a scene yesterday and blew the last shot. Today I have to go reshoot the whole thing because sky is different today and there are no sunny (it was sunny no clouds yesterday) days in the forecast for the next two weeks.

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  • 1 month later...

Hopefully your project worked out in the end.  I only just caught this thread today.  Everything Robert said is on the money. Even in my former Air Force laboratory days, all film was rapidly inspected in the darkroom to ensure there weren't any machine breaks.  Film does slant sideways a bit from top to bottom rollers in the tank racks, so there is a sideways stress on the film, and there's torque on the film being pulled thru (lessoned via the soft touch rollers on top, but still there nonetheless).....so any edge cut or fold will weaken the film especially on the side which has the main slant where there's extra torque stress.   Truly though, it's important to share any pinches or cut etc information or even a fear of the possibility that there might be some, with the lab ahead of time.  These days, all labs run with minimal crew staff, since that's just the way it is, too expensive otherwise.  Forewarned is your best insurance.   Free film or processing/scanning is nice...but as you said, it doesn't make up for all your extra time, efforts and location costs/frustration.   I still hope your project worked out in the end.....after all, shooting in 35mm is expensive!

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