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Berry Spinx

What makes 16mm turn out hi def/lo def

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e.g. https://www.instagram.com/p/CD1da8uH09A/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

and https://www.instagram.com/p/CDmcIgoHLiX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Both 16mm but one looks cleaner than the other. I've seen some 16mm footage that looks like it was shot on an 8mm and then some that look like it's 35mm in terms of definition.

Also, why does this look washed out, is it the grade or lack of grade? https://vimeo.com/388986395

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Lots of reasons for the difference, exposure and film speed for one thing, lenses, etc... but the main issue is CONTRAST.  Higher contrast lighting and  color-correction (deeper blacks, hotter whites) makes the image look sharper even if it isn't.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Berry Spinx said:

These two are probably shot with a lower ISO stock, excellent exposure which helps add some contrast and look like they've had a pretty serious grade put on them, with perhaps some noise reduction. 

Quote

Also, why does this look washed out, is it the grade or lack of grade? https://vimeo.com/388986395

This is what 500T looks like with low exposure and a more flat image, with not much of a grade. It for sure has a grade, but it's nowhere near the grade of the other samples above. 

This documentary short has interviews shot on Vision 3 500T, the daylight exterior is 64D Fuji and the dark set stuff is 500T Vision 2 (older stock) and the few shots from the short film are Vision 3 500T. With light noise reduction and some basic grading. 

 

Edited by Tyler Purcell

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On 8/15/2020 at 6:54 AM, Berry Spinx said:

e.g. https://www.instagram.com/p/CD1da8uH09A/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

and https://www.instagram.com/p/CDmcIgoHLiX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Both 16mm but one looks cleaner than the other. I've seen some 16mm footage that looks like it was shot on an 8mm and then some that look like it's 35mm in terms of definition.

Also, why does this look washed out, is it the grade or lack of grade? https://vimeo.com/388986395

I'd also note that small differences in flange depth calibration can also result in a less defined image, where it goes a tiny bit soft and thus makes the grain seem more apparent. I've seen this even on 416s where the footage being shown off is just a tiny bit soft, even when Ultra16s or Master Primes were used. A tiny bit out of calibration can be the difference between looking like grainy 35mm or sharp 8mm. Same goes for lens collimation. Whenever possible, you want to test and then harp on getting everything super dialed in if you're going for max resolution. 

Theres also a chance that in example #1 they over exposed a bit to get the smaller grains to expose and thus gave the picture more detail, where example #2 may just be 500t rated at 500. Overexposing by 1/3rd of a stop always seems to help a bit (so 500 shot at 400, 200 at 160 etc)

Contestant number 3 just looks like they didnt want a super contrasty look. 

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On 8/15/2020 at 3:54 PM, Berry Spinx said:

e.g. https://www.instagram.com/p/CD1da8uH09A/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

and https://www.instagram.com/p/CDmcIgoHLiX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Both 16mm but one looks cleaner than the other. I've seen some 16mm footage that looks like it was shot on an 8mm and then some that look like it's 35mm in terms of definition.

Also, why does this look washed out, is it the grade or lack of grade? https://vimeo.com/388986395

film scanning yields very different results....nobody has mentioned that? also...YouTube looks diff to Vimeo looks diff to Instagram

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3 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

film scanning yields very different results....nobody has mentioned that? also...YouTube looks diff to Vimeo looks diff to Instagram

As someone with five motion picture scanners (Spirit2K Spirit 4K Scan Station 5K Xena 4K Xena 6.5K) and a full service lab I think that film scanning has come to a point where if you get your film scanned on any of the professional scanners with a competent operator the scans will be similar (if not the same) and have a great deal of dynamic range and color fidelity where the scan can be graded any way the colorist wants.

I think there is some separation at the high end when film is scanned on a true RGB scanner vs. a scanner with a color sensor mostly in color separation and fidelity especially in a dense negative. Those differences are subtle and not likely to be seen by people working on more regular projects vs. major films and TV shows with high end monitoring.

 

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3 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

Very informative thanks Robert

I think allot of times when people see work on film like the two Instagram examples above they kind of reach for how the film was scanned and on what scanner as a metric of the look of the work, where they should be asking more questions like what film stock? what exposure? and especially who lit / shot / graded the film. As with people wanting to qualify everything about the look of something into how many "K's"

In the past the difference between say a Cintel MK3 CRT Telecine and a SDC2000 classic Spirit were pretty obvious, but at the end of the reign of the "HD Telecine" the Spirit, the Millenium, the DSX were all making very equivalent work (if the CRT machines had a good tube) and the look came down more to the colorist.

Now with ubiquitous data scanning (Scan Station, Scannity, Arriscan, Xena, Spirit4K etc.etc.) proper 12bit (10bit Log) Cineon Log film scans with low scanner noise and excellent dynamic range the scan is becomming more of a commodity and the other aspect like stock choice, exposure of the stock and how it is pushed or pulled and the work of the colorist.

You can still get a somewhat under-performing scan from  scanners like the BMD Cintel or a Scan Station VarioScan etc. with the 5K CMOSIS sensor which exhibit fixed pattern noise especially with dense negative but that is 99.994% gone with the new 4K and 6.5K Sony Pregius sensors that are going into machines now and I would think BMD would put the 4.6K chip in the BMD Cintel on it's next update.

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thanks again Robert......I get my 16mm done on Arriscan on the recommendation of the tech at Cinelab London....."if it was my piece I'd scan it on the Arriscan" I was told directly by him on the telephone so that's good enough for me all day long......at the moment....they could come back next time and say let's do it on the Scanity or whatever and Id go with their recommends.....so thanks for all the information Robert et al

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9 hours ago, Stephen Perera said:

thanks again Robert......I get my 16mm done on Arriscan on the recommendation of the tech at Cinelab London....."if it was my piece I'd scan it on the Arriscan" I was told directly by him on the telephone so that's good enough for me all day long......at the moment....they could come back next time and say let's do it on the Scanity or whatever and Id go with their recommends.....so thanks for all the information Robert et al

the Scanity is a spectacular scanner, and scans faster than the arricsan. so if one is cheaper than the other, you really cant go wrong with either image wise

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14 hours ago, Robin Phillips said:

the Scanity is a spectacular scanner, and scans faster than the arricsan. so if one is cheaper than the other, you really cant go wrong with either image wise

they price it the same......but the tech prefers the Arriscan.....for my 2K 16mm footage......that could change of course....I always ask per job I send

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