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Black & White Negative Film/Desaturated Color Negative Film


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1. Would using color film and subsequently desaturating the image look substantially different than simply shooting on black and white film? If yes, then Is light actually captured slightly different on black and white film or does a black and white image just make lighting look interesting.

Depending on the answer to the first two questions, the following question may or may not be inapplicable:

2. I'm 99.9% dead set on filming a sequence in black and white, however there's that 0.1% in me that thinks I may change my mind while editing and want the sequence to be in color. If I decide to shoot in color "just in case" and desaturate the image, am I actually achieving the proverbial "black and white look" or would it be best to play it safe and film using black and white negative to achieve the best black and white image possible if I was so sure I wanted the sequence to be in black and white?

Edited by Matthew J. Walker
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Kodak Double X B&W stock, which is probably the most widely available B&W stock, is an old stock. It has been in existence for many years, and has not been updated with the same frequency that the color stocks have. Consequently, it's not going to have the same fine grain and wide latitude as Vision 3 film, so there will be noticeable differences between Double X and desaturated Vision 3.

That said, shooting with color, and then desaturating does give you flexibility in being able to channel mix the RGB to fine tune the exact B&W look you want, as well as being able to change your mind later.

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1. Yes, a B&W image is technically a little different. On color film, image is formed by dyes that are released when the developer is oxidized by exposed silver grains. So it is on some more recent B&W stocks like Ilford XP2. But we tend to use older stocks where the image you see is actually made of sharp "cubical" silver grains. 

While these emulsions are technically inferior, you'd likely prefer their edge effects and grain as it provides a sort of "dithering" to image, fooling the eye into seeing texture and sharp contours that are actually missing. 

2. You're either shooting color or B&W. It has to be decided on early in preproduction. Everything from production design to wardrobe, makeup and hair depends on whether you shoot color or not. While desaturating in post allows you to fine-tune contrast with hue-vs-luma curves, more general contrast control can be also accomplished with color filters and colored lighting.

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Yours is a good question.  I think if you were making optical prints, the difference between these capture films would be obvious.

But, since you're scanning... I'm not so sure...

I've posted some links below to some b&w images from my facebook page.  Sorry, they are all different images, but I think they might show what's possible.  You might need to copy and paste them into a photo app so you can see them big enough.  Each link has a photo taken in full frame 35mm still camera format.

If you don't feel too much difference, you might want to use the capture medium that affords you the most control after scanning.

 

Color neg film scan to B&W

B&W tri-x scan

Digital color capture converted to B&W

 

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"The Man Who Wasn't There" was shot on color negative stock. There's a difference compared to shooting on b&w stock but how big of a difference is hard to define, I think the monochromatic image tends to strike the eyes much more strongly than the other qualities like the shape of the grains.

I do think it is tricky to change your mind because that means lighting and art directing for a good color image.

For me, it would be a question of ASA and what shooting stop I was aiming for, since 500 ASA color negative is less grainy than Double-X negative (160/200 ASA). If I'm going to try and get a deep stop for interiors, I would rather make my life easier by using a faster stock (or shoot digitally.). And the same thing if I wanted a very fine grain for exteriors, 50 ASA color negative stock is much finer-grained than Double-X.

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Seeing that all four of you agree that it would give me much more freedom during the editing process to film the sequence in color, I think that is the route I'm going to take. Also, you're right @Stuart Brereton I completely forgot that Kodak's only current black and white film stock is the not so current 5222/7222. A beautiful stock on 35mm but in my case I'd be using the 7222. Just too grainy. And @David Mullen ASC I think you're right. My attraction for black and white film may be the gothic nature of a black and white image rather than the narrow degree of nuances that come with a proper black and white negative. So not only would it give me more freedom, but I suppose filming in color and desaturating the sequence to black and white would also keep the sequence true to the texture of the rest of the picture. I've made my mind up... man do I love this forum.

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1 hour ago, Matthew J. Walker said:

I completely forgot that Kodak's only current black and white film stock is the not so current 5222/7222. A beautiful stock on 35mm but in my case I'd be using the 7222.

Actually, I believe Kodak still has 7266 Tri-X Reversal available in 16mm: https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/product/camera-films/tri-x-black-white-7266.

This is a gloriously beautiful stock when projected, much finer grain and tonal separation than Double-X 7222, which I always felt was a bit muddy looking if you weren't carefully to light with high contrast. 7266 naturally has creamy looking highlights and rich blacks, it's sharp with gorgeous grain. I seem to recall that it was last updated in the early 2000s. You would have to test to see how much detail you can pull out of a film scan, it'll be trickier to work with than color negative due to the high contrast.

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