Jump to content
Mitch Gross

Kinetta

Recommended Posts

Super 16 is actually a possibility we are considering. S16 to HD to film (the HD intermediate process so we can play a lot with the look of the movie). I saw 16mm done this way though once and it looked awful. Fotokem doesn't even show this on their reel anymore because they say the results vary too much. You think this is a viable option?

It's a very viable option and people are using HD or 2k data for Digital Intermediates everyday. If Fotoken doesn't want to show you a demo, call over to Technique/Technicolor Creative Services and ask all about the work they do. S-16-HD-35 is how "City of God" was posted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's just no way things will be ready.  Even if the camera were there (big if), what are you going to edit with.  How will you even view the material?  How will you store all that vast data?

That's an interesting question. I'm guessing that maybe the magazine holds about 300-400GB of data. When a mag is full you would obviously want to 1) copy all it's contents to a locked drive (s,) and 2) import offline HD footage into an NLE for viewing/editing. The new Kona 2 card supports Dual Link HD-SDI, but I wonder if the Kinetta format would be properly "seen" by Kona/FCP. Of course this all would require a mag to meet an NLE before it could be deleted/"reloaded."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

You wouldn't bother with a Kona card if you just wanted it in FCP - you'd dump it onto hard drives and then downres it to offline.

 

Phil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You wouldn't bother with a Kona card if you just wanted it in FCP - you'd dump it onto hard drives and then downres it to offline.

 

Phil

I guess I'm missing something. How would you "dump it onto hard drives" uncompressed w/o using Dual Link HD-SDI? How else could one transfer the data from the mag to a CPU drive?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

If you read the first page of this thread, I made a post about a particularly attractive way of working for low-budget outfits.

 

Phil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi,

 

Apparently to get the data out of the mags, they operate as a serial ATA master, which means you can plug a hundred-quid hard drive into it and have it spool off the images.

Oh that's nice. Definitely simplifies things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi folks,

On reading these posts it struck me that if the "Mag drive" unit that is being created for the Kinetta camera were made available as a stand-alone unit, it might be even more commercially viable than the camera itself. It would instantly make all of those new, cheap, POV HD cameras like the $20,000 (or less) Sony HDC X300 into viable field cameras. They all have SDI out, and all that is lacking is a portable means of recording the HD data. I wonder if this has been considered by whoever is making them?

 

All the best

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm glad to hear it Mitch, can I buy one please?

 

LOL

 

Paul

Get in line behind me. :P

 

People have been emailing me as if I were one of the people behind Kinetta. I've been talking to the designers for more than a year about their system, but I'm just an interested customer like the rest of us. It was pretty easy to get info from Jeff; I just emailed him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I don't think that's how it works; it works as a SATA master so you can dump off onto a drive without needing a computer.

 

This might imply that it's possible for them to implement software to mount it as a drive, but I don't really see what the object would be. Get some SATA caddies and go with it. Lower power requirements, simpler, and probably more reliable.

 

Phil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest J Jukuzami

The Kinetta is a very interesting concept. It seems that uncompressed id the way of the future, or even present. Hard drives are getting less and less expensive. It does not make any sense to develop new tape mechanisms. I think that Panasonic too understands this.

 

There is another development that may help those on a budget. Prospect HD is an application that works with dual Opteron processor. To save money on hard drives, one can feed a computer via HD SDI and Prospect HD compresses the signal quite transparently, in 10 bit, 4:2:2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To save money on hard drives, one can feed a computer via HD SDI and Prospect HD compresses the signal quite transparently, in 10 bit, 4:2:2.

If it is 10bit 4:2:2 then it is most certainly not transparent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest J Jukuzami

I said quite transparently; it is a lot less compressed/filtered than with CineAlta or Varicam recorder.

 

10 bit, 4:2:2 is what NLEs can handle

 

You can have 12 bit 4:4:4 but if your NLE will not handle it, what is it good for

 

Diferent subject: Compression is used in digital film storage and everywhere; it just depends how and how much you compress

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are systems that allow for ZERO compression, both in editing and storage. The Dalsa uses a form of Mathematically Lossless Compression, which to me is the goal of the only kind of compression to accept. The Kinetta uses no compression and stores all of its data RAW. "Mild" compression is still, well, compression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only just joined this forum, based in the UK. I have the same dream of a low cost HD system as many others. I'm not nearly as technically savvy as you guys as I'm a writer first and foremost. Jesus, some of you guys sound like engineers! I've been following the new developments very closely, including kinetta, sony POV, JVC etc. over in the UK we're limited to the sony hdw750p, the sdx900, imx, cinealta. All are either too expensive or do not provide enough quality.

 

Last week I rang a guy called Steve Nordhausen who works for silicon imaging. Within 8-12 weeks time a new camera will arrive! Here is the spec so far, forgive me if they are not detailed enough.

 

SI-1920 HD camera. 1920*1080 3.2 megapixel at 24fps poss 23.976 as well. Single cmos chip. Will stream to computer (PC) poss USB2 connection altough serial ata configuration was hinted at.

Frame grabber software will be required. Apparently 10bit and 12bit solutions are available. Images will be uncompressed. Frame grabber will be required along with another piece of software which I'm still a bit hazy on. Ready for the best bit? Camera will be approx $4000!

Frame grabber $1500. Camera will apparently be compatible with 16mm bolex or sneider lenses along with others. Steve mentioned that a press release would be availble close to release which may be July!

 

I would appreciate hearing what you guys think about this. Personally I don't think it's vapourware as they already have a 6.6megapixel camera that does the same but at different frame rates. Look forward to hearing from you guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds promising - what chip are they using?

 

Personally I think portability will be a huge concern though - so the ability for it to run off batteries and capure directly to a portable device would be a requirement for most (but not all uses and cinematographers). While this would surely add to the price, I think it's almost a requisite for most people's needs. (Not all though.)

 

How would people here go about making something like this portable if it doesn't come with a solution?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

Care to elaborate on how they're getting uncompressed 1920x1080 at 10 bit down a 480Mbit/sec USB-2 link? Good trick. The better trick would be storing it, given PCI bus limitations.

 

The Kinetta solution is much better. To be able to mount hard disks natively is massively useful, since it saves you carrying (and powering) an entire computer. There's a lot of subtle issues with formatting and filetypes, though.

 

Phil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest J Jukuzami

I posted info about the camera in a new thread; then I noticed this one.

 

The guy says he "thinks" it is USB-2. Of course it can't be.

 

Of course the Kinetta is a better solution, but when we look at the cost, then the new camera is a super buy. Sure you'll need to drag a computer with you. Well, on a movie production you drag along so much styff, one computer is nothing, if your budget is limited and you can't afford the Kinetta.

 

Actually I would like to see a new low cost camera with HD SDI interface and Nikon 35 mm SLR mount. You plug the thing into BoxxTechnologies.com RT $23,000 computer with included Prospect HD and get 32 hours of 1080p 4:2:2 recording. For $30K you have a production and postproduction solution with sufficient image quality to be shown on a big theater screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest J Jukuzami

Not having an integrated recorder is not that big of a deal:

1. Sony F950 does not have it and it costs $110K.

2. You can run HD SDI link coax for 200'.

3. The Kinetta RAID drive can probably be used on this camera.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll believe it when I see it. Knowing the developemnet process, issues and costs that other manufacturers are going through, I am highly dubious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually I would like to see a new low cost camera with HD SDI interface and Nikon 35 mm SLR mount. You plug the thing into BoxxTechnologies.com RT $23,000 computer with included Prospect HD and get 32 hours of 1080p 4:2:2 recording. For $30K you have a production and postproduction solution with sufficient image quality to be shown on a big theater screen.

You've got to be kidding.

 

This isn't a real world of production solution for anyone I know.

 

-Sam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest J Jukuzami
You've got to be kidding.

 

This isn't a real world of production solution for anyone I know.

 

-Sam

 

Maybe not for you. For that cost most you can get is DV as of now, not even SD. So basically you can stay with your real world of production solution that is 480/60i, 4:1:1; I'll take the 1080/24p, 4:2:2 at the same cost anytime. To each his own. We all have our preferences. One likes the Blair Witch look; most would pass.

 

 

Mitch

I'll believe it when I see it. Knowing the developemnet process, issues and costs that other manufacturers are going through, I am highly dubious.

 

We'll see; the Kinetta is quite complicated with many features. The cameras being developed take existing components and just put them together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You've got to be kidding.

 

This isn't a real world of production solution for anyone I know.

 

-Sam

 

Maybe not for you. For that cost most you can get is DV as of now, not even SD. So basically you can stay with your real world of production solution that is 480/60i, 4:1:1; I'll take the 1080/24p, 4:2:2 at the same cost anytime. To each his own. We all have our preferences. One likes the Blair Witch look; most would pass.

 

 

Mitch

I'll believe it when I see it. Knowing the developemnet process, issues and costs that other manufacturers are going through, I am highly dubious.

 

We'll see; the Kinetta is quite complicated with many features. The cameras being developed take existing components and just put them together.

Sorry I was talking about getting professional quality work done in the real world.

 

Skip it. Whatever.

 

-Sam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Abel Cine



    Serious Gear



    Gamma Ray Digital Inc



    Metropolis Post



    Rig Wheels Passport



    G-Force Grips



    Ritter Battery



    Paralinx LLC



    FJS International



    Just Cinema Gear



    Broadcast Solutions Inc



    Wooden Camera



    Visual Products



    Tai Audio



    CineLab



    Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS



    New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment



    Glidecam


×
×
  • Create New...