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Questions for other DPs (About lighting)


Stephen Sanchez

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Lighting is a developed skill and there is no shame in recognizing one’s images lack for some reason. I’m collecting questions that new or inexperienced shooters would like to ask other well-lit DPs.

I would like to point out that we are all inexperienced in some capacity, so those of you well-knowledged DPs, I would encourage some advanced questions from you.

These questions can be hypothetical scenarios or problems from the past. Perhaps there is a subject you’ve always been curious about but never tested it or knew how to deal with. Perhaps you don’t know how to shoot black on black on black in a dark room. Perhaps you don’t know how to deal with dappling under a tree scene. How do you place lights in a room of mirrors? Why doesn't my setup look like your tutorial?

If you could ask “the lighting gods” anything, what would it be?

This is for a group video Q&A with other DPs on lighting approaches. It’s a test meet I’m planning on doing with the intent on providing experienced insight on lighting, the results of which I’ll share with the forum.

Edited by Stephen Sanchez
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I don’t ever get to use large units like 18Ks, Xenons, Molebeams, Softsuns, Wendy lights, and HMI balloon lights on my jobs. Though I have plenty of ideas for how I might use them for recreating certain natural lighting effects, it’s all theoretical.

So I would like to ask - if budget was no object, how would you recreate a realistic tree-dappled sunlight effect in a large day interior over a 100’ area with artificial lights? Say in a space like the Main Concourse of Grand Central Terminal? 

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17 hours ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

if budget was no object, how would you recreate a realistic tree-dappled sunlight effect in a large day interior? 

Not that I’ve ever done it, but I’ll take a punt at answering this.

Dappled sunlight is two things. Light and movement. A very basic reconstruction is as simple as shining a hard light through some camo netting, while gently moving the netting back and forth. For more random movement, you could add a second or third layer of netting, and have them all move independently of each other, so that the gaps don't just move, but change size as well. Then you have to scale it up. That means a huge net, and probably multiple hard sources, rather than one big one. I’d try something like an array of dinos and 9 lights, as multi globe lamps punch through foliage better. Perhaps some sort of automated cam system to keep the netting moving, rather than having grips do it. 
 

Another method might be to use multiple effects projectors to cover the area, although you’d need to have some way of blending the edges of the beams, but that shouldn’t be difficult.

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If you wanted to go for a genuine single source light, to cover an area that size, about the only thing that exists is a Soft Sun. They have very high power handling - the technology is essentially a giant xenon photo flash tube, run continuously. A 200kW version was made for the moon scenes in First Man to create a very large area lit with unbroken shadows on the sunlit lunar surface.

I'm not sure how well it'd do projecting foliage as the tube is many feet long, so you'd need a physically large object to project, physically distant from the lamp, but it certainly looked like sunlight at adequate distance.

P

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Thanks Stuart and Phil, 

I’m curious to hear the results Stephen brings back! 

The question comes from an actual job a few months ago where this came up. We were shooting in a very large high-ceilinged corporate cafeteria, closed due to pandemic. We were tasked with recreating a 3-camera setup from the week previous, with our widest shot being a 5 large vertical TVs on stands showing a virtual meeting participants and a full body single person sitting on stool in facing them. The other angles were a tighter dirty OTS 5-shot of the monitors and a reverse single of the moderator on a long lens. 

The previous week’s shoot had a bigger budget, so they had a pre-light day, an AC for the 3x Venice cameras, and a DIT, as well as a full Livestream crew for the shoot day. I was there for 3 days as an operator.

The following week’s recreation shoot which I lit was quite a bit smaller, 3x C300Mk2s with 1x unmanned, single day setup and teardown. The gaffer, swing, and other camera operator were the same, so essentially we had the luxury of a long paid scout. We decided to flip the whole set, as the first shoot’s wide shot faced the huge south-facing floor to ceiling windows shooting into a row of trees 15-20’ away. As the sun moved thru the day, it crept over the tops of the trees and hit the floor with a gradient of dapple-to-direct for most of the afternoon. The first DP liked the dapple but hated the direct sun, so eventually the solution was to hang camo net outside between the trees and the windows, just above the frame line. While it did work to break up the sunlight, it didn’t look the same as real dappled light. But it did the job.

On the following week’s shoot, we turned around and shot against the north wall, which was about 100’ long and 60’ tall. Light matte beige in color, it was probably made of molded concrete panels to look like stone. Our new internal client who had a theatrical lighting background asked me how we could recreate a streak of dappled sun-lit look on a section of wall that we got in the morning, and I had to tell her it wasn’t possible with the lighting we had - my biggest lights were a Skypanel 360 raking the wall and an M18 outside to bring up the dark foliage. I even cut a branchaloris to show her what it would do. 

What I suggested for next time was to add a pre-light day, build a tall scaffold to the side of the wall and use a 4K Xenon lamp for the streak. Then maybe use camo netting close to the wall. But knowing what I know now about the effect of camo netting, I was wondering if there was a better way to get the sharp oval bokeh of real dapple, and also evenly over a much larger area.

I think Phil’s suggestion of the SoftSun and Stuart’s suggestion of the digital beam projectors might be the only ways? 

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True dappled sunlight where the gaps in the branches act like a lens iris and throw circles of the sun on the ground is near impossible to create artificially.  I remember one shot in the ballet sequence in "American in Paris" where John Alton attempted a simple version of this effect with theatrical follow spots aimed on a flower cart, it was interesting considering this was 3-strip Technicolor. It struck me that with enough Lekos, you could get this effect, but they wouldn't move around independently of each other the way a true sun dapple dances. Maybe a couple of overlapping modern intelligent moving lamps could simulate this.  Not that you'd ever see a tree shadow in Grand Central Terminal!

 

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56 minutes ago, David Mullen ASC said:

True dappled sunlight where the gaps in the branches act like a lens iris and throw circles of the sun on the ground is near impossible to create artificially.  I remember one shot in the ballet sequence in "American in Paris" where John Alton attempted a simple version of this effect with theatrical follow spots aimed on a flower cart, it was interesting considering this was 3-strip Technicolor. It struck me that with enough Lekos, you could get this effect, but they wouldn't move around independently of each other the way a true sun dapple dances. Maybe a couple of overlapping modern intelligent moving lamps could simulate this.  Not that you'd ever see a tree shadow in Grand Central Terminal!

 

I guess if you really need something like that, video projection might be the way to go, using a projector driven by a Xenon lamp. It wouldn't be exactly dazzling.

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2 hours ago, David Mullen ASC said:

Maybe a couple of overlapping modern intelligent moving lamps could simulate this.  Not that you'd ever see a tree shadow in Grand Central Terminal!

Lol, that’s true although someone like Terry Gilliam might be interested in the effect anyway! 

Thanks for the ideas David.

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1 hour ago, Albion Hockney said:

I can't remember ever seeing tree dapple over such a large interior space in real life. there would have to be a huge row of trees 


It was basically a row of planted trees maybe 30’ high surrounding the building on 3 sides, separated by a concrete walkway. Floor-to-ceiling windows on 3 sides, as well as skylights above the concrete wall. The longest side is south facing, so the sun rises thru one of the short sides and rakes down thru the skylights onto the wall until noon. In the afternoon, the sun comes straight thru the long side in the middle of the day and sets on the opposite short side, furthest from set.

Room is pretty much one big open space broken up by tables and benches. We were shooting in one third of the large room, into a corner. Ceiling 40-50’ high. There were motorized blinds we could bring down per wall.

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Alright, I'll bite even though I'm pretty sure there's no solution... what if you want to use artificial lighting to create a tack sharp shadow of something like a martini glass with liquid being poured into it at high speed... like 500fps or even a 1000fps?  Something high noon sunlight could probably create (although I haven't tried), but with artificial and controllable lighting. What is a source so small, but so bright that it could give that sharp a shadow with that much punch to expose for a 1000fps?  I don't think a 4k xenon can't provide enough stop for a 1000fps if it's far enough away to cast that sharp of a shadow, right?  If we're dabbling in theory, then I'll dabble... Thanks

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24 minutes ago, Justin Hayward said:

Alright, I'll bite even though I'm pretty sure there's no solution... what if you want to use artificial lighting to create a tack sharp shadow of something like a martini glass with liquid being poured into it at high speed... like 500fps or even a 1000fps?  Something high noon sunlight could probably create (although I haven't tried), but with artificial and controllable lighting. What is a source so small, but so bright that it could give that sharp a shadow with that much punch to expose for a 1000fps?  I don't think a 4k xenon can't provide enough stop for a 1000fps if it's far enough away to cast that sharp of a shadow, right?  If we're dabbling in theory, then I'll dabble... Thanks

At what stop? 

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@Satsuki Murashige , fantastic! Actually this discussion is an example of what I plan to do live with a handful of other shooters. It's purpose is to show there are different viewpoints and solutions for a given scenario. Its secondary purpose is to foster conversation on lighting between DPs who don't get to watch others work.

 

To get in on this dapple train, it may be that projectors are the best option for the cost.

My stab at the solution would be expensive. Remember that branches are volumous, while cammo net is like a 2D plane. I believe it's the random stacking of arms and leaves that create the familiar dapple effect (coupled with distant light). I'd look to place loads of fake trees out of frame, or outside on the skylight if necessary. The closer a lights are to the trees, the blurrier and larger the dapple will be, so the lights would have to back off by quite a bit (a distance I'm not really sure about). Since you can't place lights 300ft in the sky, a condor with a span of mirror boards lifted up would do with a row of spotted lights at the bottom. Parabolic lights might be best. Softsun makes 3.5kw Parabolics. My hesitation on spotted maxis or wendys would be too soft of source, so the fewer fixtures the sharper the dapple.

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24 minutes ago, Stephen Sanchez said:

@Satsuki Murashige , fantastic! Actually this discussion is an example of what I plan to do live with a handful of other shooters. It's purpose is to show there are different viewpoints and solutions for a given scenario. Its secondary purpose is to foster conversation on lighting between DPs who don't get to watch others work.

 

To get in on this dapple train, it may be that projectors are the best option for the cost.

My stab at the solution would be expensive. Remember that branches are volumous, while cammo net is like a 2D plane. I believe it's the random stacking of arms and leaves that create the familiar dapple effect (coupled with distant light). I'd look to place loads of fake trees out of frame, or outside on the skylight if necessary. The closer a lights are to the trees, the blurrier and larger the dapple will be, so the lights would have to back off by quite a bit (a distance I'm not really sure about). Since you can't place lights 300ft in the sky, a condor with a span of mirror boards lifted up would do with a row of spotted lights at the bottom. Parabolic lights might be best. Softsun makes 3.5kw Parabolics. My hesitation on spotted maxis or wendys would be too soft of source, so the fewer fixtures the sharper the dapple.

Thanks for the ideas! I prob can’t share BTS stills of the setup, but here are a few location photos with the natural dapple light I took of our Swing, Hunter Houston: 

DE630A82-37F3-4C43-BE26-AB6FF6585A1D.jpeg.3d2440ceeb054b253f862f1c87b0026d.jpeg

2681BDB7-9E15-44B3-AD5C-F8491EC3BDBF.jpeg.e26c9fad1c20247e25171346e8fa6077.jpeg

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26 minutes ago, Justin Hayward said:

Wide open because it's a flat surface.  1.4 or 2.8... whatever.    It's the 5 or 6 stops of frame rate that I'm talking about or some shutter if you want to add it.

If I’ve calculated correctly, at 800 ISO / 90 shutter / T1.4, you only need 6fc at 24fps for a normal exposure. So for 1000fps, that’s 5.3 stops more, or about 250fc - not much at all. For T2.8, you’d need 1000fc. 

Here’s an article where Art Adams makes similar calculations for a Phantom shoot at 1600fps T4, the results seems to gibe with mine: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.provideocoalition.com/lighting-one-exposure-formula-to-rule-them-all/amp/

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The photos are more of a tree shadow effect than the extreme effect of dancing circles of light from the sun passing through a tree. In this case, it's more about using a bright sharp light far enough back and the tree branches as close to the subject as possible.  In the old days, it would have been done with a brute arc.  I've tried taking the fresnel out of a 20K and backing it up, it works well but it's oddly not very bright, I was wide-open at 800 ASA the last time I tried that, but it worked.  I think a 10K Skypan maybe in a housing painted black on the inside might be sharper.  Again, it's all about distance to get a sharp pattern.

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1 hour ago, David Mullen ASC said:

The photos are more of a tree shadow effect than the extreme effect of dancing circles of light from the sun passing through a tree. In this case, it's more about using a bright sharp light far enough back and the tree branches as close to the subject as possible.  In the old days, it would have been done with a brute arc.  I've tried taking the fresnel out of a 20K and backing it up, it works well but it's oddly not very bright, I was wide-open at 800 ASA the last time I tried that, but it worked.  I think a 10K Skypan maybe in a housing painted black on the inside might be sharper.  Again, it's all about distance to get a sharp pattern.

Thanks David, that’s very helpful. How far away do you think the light would need to be placed from the wall? 

The photos weren’t the best at capturing the full effect, there were tree shadows but also true dapple on the floor which I didn’t capture well. I’m still curious about recreating the latter. 
 

 

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Another lighting question: 

Macro ECU of an eyeball at 60fps to minimize motion blur. You want to shoot at at least T8 for maximum depth of field. The sunrise/city skyline reflection will be painted in later in post. How do you light this shot? 

B823AE70-3BC6-4BB7-9106-1FC71C19F69A.thumb.png.d9c91e786a60e456115eada5ce139acc.png
Full disclosure: This is what I came up with, and I wasn’t totally happy with it. Looking for better ideas to improve for next time!

Edited by Satsuki Murashige
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13 minutes ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

Macro ECU of an eyeball at 60fps to minimize motion blur. You want to shoot at at least T8 for maximum depth of field. The sunrise/city skyline reflection will be painted in later in post. How do you light this shot? 

If the lighting didn't have to match anything else, I think I'd cut a circular hole in 4x4 diff frame, poke the lens thru it, then light the frame from behind camera. At close range it wouldn't take a big lamp to get the stop needed. The reflection of the frame and camera would be painted out anyway.

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Just now, Stuart Brereton said:

If the lighting didn't have to match anything else, I think I'd cut a circular hole in 4x4 diff frame, poke the lens thru it, then light the frame from behind camera. At close range it wouldn't take a big lamp to get the stop needed. The reflection of the frame and camera would be painted out anyway.

So you would front light the eye instead of edge lighting it? 

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4 minutes ago, Satsuki Murashige said:

So you would front light the eye instead of edge lighting it? 

It depends. Are we talking about shooting the same angle as your pic? Or more generally?

The main issues are usually keeping the reflection of the camera and the lamp from being seen, but if they are going to be painted out anyway, you can light the eye any way you want.

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