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Shooting anamorphic in super16 mm film, Is there a camera that exploit the black space between two frames the same way it is done with the in 35 mm with 2 perf for 2:39, so that you gain shooting time on 400ft 16mm roll


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Question Shooting anamorphic in super16 mm film, Is there a way to exploit the black space between two frames  the same way it is done with the in 35 mm with 2 perf for 2:39 and gain time on you 400ft roll

I am shooting with hawk vlite16 1.3 anamorphic , probably sr1  but  i am wondering if there is a camera model that can allow to expoit more surface on the negative (and so, having more time per roll than the usual 10 min/400ft)  by having the frames close to each other.

I'm thinking why wouldn't that be possible, 16 mm anamorphic withmore than 10 min per 400 ft mag ? (the small size of the 16mm film ? the small size of the mechanic that pull the movie down ? so 1 perf is all there is for super 16 ? does anyone have a movie in mind that was shot anamoprhic 16mm film ?)

I know high frame rate cameras exists, with precise mechanics that allows to have that maybe ... i am looking for a professional regular model though ...

Cheers,

J

Edited by Jordan El Amrani
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  • Jordan El Amrani changed the title to Shooting anamorphic in super16 mm film, Is there a camera that exploit the black space between two frames the same way it is done with the in 35 mm with 2 perf for 2:39, so that you gain shooting time on 400ft 16mm roll

Using a 1.3 anamorphic lens already gives you the 1: 2.39 aspect ratio on a S16 camera.

16mm film is advanced one perf hole per frame, so even if you'd have a widescreen gate, you'd still be advancing the film by one perf per frame, so you don't get a longer running time like you do with a 3 or 2 perf pulldown in 35mm.

there are some 800 foot mags for the SRs and Aaton XTRs, but the film is a special order from Kodak.

Edited by David Sekanina
typo
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If you shoot anamorphic, there is no black space BETWEEN frames. 2x anamorphic would leave you with a wider image than 2.40:1 with super 16 and 1.3x anamorphic would leave you closer to 2.40:1. No wasted space on either format. 

Maybe you're referring to non-anamorphic? I think it's bonkers to crop Super 16 down to 2.40:1. Normally we attempt to retain the 1.67:1 aspect ratio of native super 16 if possible. 

There is a new format which is very much what you want. It uses double 8mm film and it shoots a wide screen image across the entire 16mm wide film plane. It's not quite 2.40:1, but it's close. I've seen a lot of tests with it but since it uses modified 8mm cameras, you won't get a "professional" camera to shoot it really. You'd have to modify the living crap out of the camera and I don't think it would be worth it to save a few bux. 

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2-perf 35mm is a NON-anamorphic way of getting 2.39 : 1.

The equivalent for 16mm would be a half frame format — I think a few 8mm cameras (Double 8mm as Tyler says) were set up to expose across the 16mm roll to double the width of the image — but 8mm does not come in 400’ rolls (it had twice as many sprocket holes in it than a normal 16mm roll so you’d normally expose half of the strip and then flip it over and expose the other half, then the lab would process it and slit it to 8mm.)

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I agree with these gentlemen, 

If a theoretical had a "half perf" gate for R16, you would lose so much resolution I doubt it would even be worth it. Especially if you wanted to blow up to 35mm. You'd essentially be back to Super8. 

As far as anamorphic 16mm movies, one of my favorites is a documentary by a director I've worked for before named Jason Khon and his film "Manda Bala" (Send a Bullet). 

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The 16mm half frame format utilizing Double 8mm referenced above is known as UltraPan8 2.8 R8. The native aspect ratio is 2.8 across the exposed 16mm width of unslit Double 8mm. It can be easily cropped to the traditional Cinemascope 2.4 AR in post. Note that Double 8mm is 16mm film stock with double the perforations per foot. This fundamental fact doubles the runtime as there are 80x UltraPan8 frames per foot compared to 40x 16mm frames. A 100ft daylight spool is approximately 5+ minutes total. We have converted approximately 16x Bolex. This is an example of test 50D footage shot by filmmaker Webster Colcord with processing and scan by Cinelab at 2982 x 1215 pixels. I was just advised by Cinelab that the scan was actually down-sampled form the original 6k scan. The concept is similar to 2-perf 35mm spherical non-anamorphic Techniscope. 

 

Edited by Nicholas Kovats
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wow Thanks , specially for the footage, mindblowing fishing party !

what lenses were used ? how do you handle the lines and edges of the frame on the viewfinder of the bolex that is in 4:3 ?

@Nicholas Kovats if 'Double 8mm is 16mm film stock' , what's the exact ref. i have to give kodak ? 

'We have converted approximately 16x Bolex' - so this half frame format is possible on regular camera model such as arri sr's or aaton ?

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Jordan,

The conversions/re-manufacturing of the Bolex UltraPan8 also have a WYSIWYG 2.8:1 viewfinder. It simply relays/magnifies the 2.8 gate and has a native upper and lower black border composition-wise. I also have a  traditional CinemaScope 2.4:1 framelines in my own ULtraPan8 Bolex. 

My preference is to shoot 100ft rolls of Double 8mm (5+ min) as to the more common 33/25ft rolls (1.5 min). Kodak no longer sells Double-8mm stock. Up until recently an engineer in the UK was re-manufacturing R16mm and 35mm film stock into 100ft daylight rolls but his expensive perf head is no more. I have shot V3 50D, 200T, 250D and 500T in Double 8mm including my fave which is Double-X, e.g. 

I have also shot Orwo UN54 b/w neg and Fomapan b/w reversal. The latter is tricky to process. Some commercial links for 100ft b/w daylight rolls of Double 8mm film stock, i.e. 

https://filmphotographystore.com/collections/movie-film/products/double-8-film-cine8-bw-negative-100-iso-high-speed-100-ft

https://filmphotographystore.com/collections/movie-film/products/double-8-film-cine8-bw-negative-100-iso-high-speed-100-ft

https://filmphotographystore.com/collections/movie-film/products/regular-8-film-cine8-f1-bw-positive-100-ft-100-iso

https://filmphotographystore.com/collections/movie-film/products/double-8-film-cine8-bw-reversal-40-iso-100-ft

They do have some smaller 33/25ft Double 8mm rolls of color neg/reversal film including Ektachrome 100D. I heard that Wittner in Germany may now be supplying their perforated Double 8mm film stock, i.e. 

https://filmphotographystore.com/collections/movie-film/products/double-8-film-cine8-color-reversal-100d-100-iso

An UltraPan8 conversion of an Arri or Aaton 16mm would be prohibitive and not cost effective. They are significantly complicated precision engineered cameras. Unlike the reasonably simplicity of the Bolex. I could not find an engineer to undertake such an expensive process. My partner did bring up the potential conversion of an Eclair ACL but did not come to fruition. 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nicholas Kovats
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