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Adding breakers to sub panels in home locations


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Is this ever done to get 4k-6ks running off of house power?  My sister in law is starting a cafe and all their coffee appliances are 220v, but all their breakers are 120v.  An electrician quoted them for 1000$.  I did some research and figured out I could re-wire two 20amp 120 circuits to a double breaker and swap the receptacle for a 220 one.  It worked and only cost $20.  Do electricians on productions ever just add breakers to panels and grab higher wattage power that way instead of generators at least for some 4ks and 6ks?

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Not really.

It would be a Tie In and seriously needs someone who knows what the heck they are doing.

It is just so much easier to have a 250/500 amp generator delivered 

the other option is using one of Guy Holt's set ups where you utilize a 240v Oven outlet or a Dryer outlet.


For the wiring you did at the cafe I hope you only installed a 20amp Double Pole breaker and not a 40 thinking that the two 20amp 120v circuits wil get you 40amps. 

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49 minutes ago, Ed Conley said:

Not really.

It would be a Tie In and seriously needs someone who knows what the heck they are doing.

It is just so much easier to have a 250/500 amp generator delivered 

the other option is using one of Guy Holt's set ups where you utilize a 240v Oven outlet or a Dryer outlet.


For the wiring you did at the cafe I hope you only installed a 20amp Double Pole breaker and not a 40 thinking that the two 20amp 120v circuits wil get you 40amps. 

I was referring to subpanels, so you don't have to tie in, you can just turn of the breaker for the sub panel.   

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20 minutes ago, Ryan Emanuel said:

I was referring to subpanels, so you don't have to tie in, you can just turn of the breaker for the sub panel.   

Yes-  I understand but if the panel is set into the wall how are you going to run wires to a 240v bates connector?

You would be lucky to find enough power in a sub-panel. 
 

Even if it was a surface mount panel there is still no easy way to get in there and run appropriate sized cords out the side or bottom of the panel.


You are still getting inside a panel and move wires around in your scenario.

Too much hassle.





 

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27 minutes ago, Ed Conley said:

Yes-  I understand but if the panel is set into the wall how are you going to run wires to a 240v bates connector?

You would be lucky to find enough power in a sub-panel. 
 

Even if it was a surface mount panel there is still no easy way to get in there and run appropriate sized cords out the side or bottom of the panel.


You are still getting inside a panel and move wires around in your scenario.

Too much hassle.





 

The same way you would run 240 lights off a dryer outlet. All I'm saying is convert a double duplex with two 120 lines to one 240 receptacle.  I'm not saying keep the panel cover off and leave energized wires connected to the buses exposed, just use the duplexes already run in the house. The only rewiring you have to do is swap the receptacle and the wire a new 240 breaker breaker, so on the panel side you are disconnecting two wires and placing them right back in the same spot, the neutral and ground don't need to be touched cuz they are already connected to the bus.

 

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Correct- but you then have to instal a receptacle. 
the cut out for a 120v/240v14-50 Range receptacle is a lot bigger than a 5-15 20amp 120v receptacle.

Also- the wires for a Duplex 20amp receptacle are only 12g. There is no way to convert that circuit that uses 12g wire to handle more than 20amps unless you run new wires that can handle the new load.
Common Range circuit  is 6 gauge wire and a 14-50 (50amps)

and a Dryer:  10g wire and a 14-30 (30amps)

Now for a 4k or 6k HMI you'll need adapters to go from bates to those two Nema receptacles.

For a location it is not practical.

I have run an Arri M40 on 240v using an L14-30 receptacle that already existed in a warehouse using a bates to L14-30 adapter.

*measured 18amps per leg on 240v  running off 120v you'll be at 36amps and overload the circuit 

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16 minutes ago, Ed Conley said:

Correct- but you then have to instal a receptacle. 
the cut out for a 120v/240v14-50 Range receptacle is a lot bigger than a 5-15 20amp 120v receptacle.

Also- the wires for a Duplex 20amp receptacle are only 12g. There is no way to convert that circuit that uses 12g wire to handle more than 20amps unless you run new wires that can handle the new load.
Common Range circuit  is 6 gauge wire and a 14-50 (50amps)

and a Dryer:  10g wire and a 14-30 (30amps)

Now for a 4k or 6k HMI you'll need adapters to go from bates to those two Nema receptacles.

For a location it is not practical.

I have run an Arri M40 on 240v using an L14-30 receptacle that already existed in a warehouse using a bates to L14-30 adapter.

*measured 18amps per leg on 240v  running off 120v you'll be at 36amps and overload the circuit 

L14-30 is what I was talking about for changing the receptacle. 

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On 1/28/2021 at 2:58 PM, Ryan Emanuel said:

L14-30 is what I was talking about for changing the receptacle. 

A few questions:

1) If I understand your OP correctly, you did this in your sister's cafe to power one of her coffee makers and now are asking hypothetically if it can be done to power a 4-6kw HMI.  Is that correct? 

2) What size two pole breaker did you put in the panel for the coffee maker? What size two pole breaker would you put in the panel to power a 6k.

3) When combining the two 20A receptacles in your sister's cafe to a single 220V receptacle, what did you do with the two neutrals and two ground wires of the original receptacles? Did you wire just one or both neutrals to the single 220V receptacle? Would you have to wire the two neutrals and two ground wires of the original receptacles to the L14-30 receptacle you are installing to power a 4-6kw HMI? If yes, why? If no, why not?

4) The Bates plug on the ballast of a 6kw  has three conductors.  An L14-30 receptacle has four conductors.  Would you drop a conductor? If so, which one? Would you combine two conductors? If so, which two?

5) Did you use a live wire circuit tracer when rewiring your sister's receptacle? Would the use of a live wire circuit tracer be required when rewiring a receptacle for a 4-6k HMI?

6) Was there a source of water within 6' of the receptacles in your sister's cafe?  What if the receptacle you rewire for a 4-6kw  is within 6' of a water source?

7) Did your sister's cafe have a single phase or three phase service?  Would it make a difference if the service was single phase or three phase in doing what you propose to power a 4-6k?

8) Would it make a difference if the 4-6k HMI ballast was power factor corrected or not?

Please respond to each of these questions in detail.

Thanks,

Guy Holt, Gaffer,  ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting equipment rental and sales in Boston.

 

Edited by Guy Holt
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On 1/30/2021 at 6:09 AM, Guy Holt said:

A few questions:

1) If I understand your OP correctly, you did this in your sister's cafe to power one of her coffee makers and now are asking hypothetically if it can be done to power a 4-6kw HMI.  Is that correct? 

2) What size two pole breaker did you put in the panel for the coffee maker? What size two pole breaker would you put in the panel to power a 6k.

3) When combining the two 20A receptacles in your sister's cafe to a single 220V receptacle, what did you do with the two neutrals and two ground wires of the original receptacles? Did you wire just one or both neutrals to the single 220V receptacle? Would you have to wire the two neutrals and two ground wires of the original receptacles to the L14-30 receptacle you are installing to power a 4-6kw HMI? If yes, why? If no, why not?

4) The Bates plug on the ballast of a 6kw  has three conductors.  An L14-30 receptacle has four conductors.  Would you drop a conductor? If so, which one? Would you combine two conductors? If so, which two?

5) Did you use a live wire circuit tracer when rewiring your sister's receptacle? Would the use of a live wire circuit tracer be required when rewiring a receptacle for a 4-6k HMI?

6) Was there a source of water within 6' of the receptacles in your sister's cafe?  What if the receptacle you rewire for a 4-6kw  is within 6' of a water source?

7) Did your sister's cafe have a single phase or three phase service?  Would it make a difference if the service was single phase or three phase in doing what you propose to power a 4-6k?

? Would it make a difference if the 4-6k HMI ballast was power factor corrected or not?

Please respond to each of these questions in detail.

Thanks,

Guy Holt, Gaffer,  ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting equipment rental and sales in Boston.

 

1. yes that was the original question.

2.  20A double pole, 30A breaker 

3. Just one neutral for the coffee maker, it said in the manual that it only uses the 120v power for the clock, for the HMI both on the neutral.

4. You have to put the ground and neutral together, cuz the hmi will send more back on the neutral.

5. No,  and don't know.

6. No it wasn't, for the light you would need a gfci

7. Its single phase so we were getting 245v from the two lines, if it was three phases we would get 208v, and that would raise the amp draw of the ballasts and potentially impact the correct breaker and wire.

8.Yes if the power factor correction is not 1, the ballast will pull more amps, potential higher than the threshold for the wire or connections.

 

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