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Chris Carr

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Well, there is no longer any film being manufactured with mag-stripe.  The adhering process was too environmentally hazardous and was banned in the early 90’s.  There are expired Super8mm stocks for sale on eBay.  You can get pretty good results with Ektachrome, but stay away from Kodachrome because it can only be processed as B/W.  Remember to open the iris one f-stop for every decade of expiration.  The alternative is to shoot new color reversal film and have it mag-striped after processing. You may be able to have two stripes put on it for stereo recording with certain stereo projectors.(Elmo GS1200, etc.) Alberto Vangelisti does it in his lab; in Italy; and it’s amazingly cheap; but you want to send a lot of footage for best value.  His email is Moviemagnetic@gmail.com.   

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I've been experimenting heavily with older sound stocks and the results have been beyond poor. The sound on film cameras generally have problems due to age, so that needs to be remedied first. Then you have the issues with the film stock itself, you need to find stuff that has been properly stored AND even the Ektachrome can't be processed E-6 which is the normal way of doing things these days. So its special processing, which is expensive and the results are again, very poor. I haven't been able to get any of the Ektachrome stock I bought to deliver a workable image yet. 

It's sad, I loved super 8 sound as a kid, but I think it's days are long behind us. 

Ohh and no, they won't be making new stock. 

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Hi, I process a variety of current and mostly outdated Super 8mm movie films here.  From my own use and what I get in from customers, the image quality varies, dependent on the age of the film, and how it was stored.  I get film in that is over 30 years old but has been stored frozen since new and it still looks great.  I have also seen film only refrigerator stored since new and while not as good as film stored frozen, it's still quite usable.  New Super 8mm Sound film will most likely not be made.  I have considered it and have experimented with B&W and Color Reversal film, only applying the Main Track to the film [original KODAK etc sound films had 2 tracks, Main Track and Balance Track].  Some others have also done similar experiments over the years, as well as someone in Spain.  It would just be way too costly on a tiny scale, with each cartridge costing close to $100.  The materials, filmstock, adhesive and special magnetic stripe eats up most of the cost, leaving very little left for all the very time consuming labor involved.

There is still a glut of unused Super 8mm Sound film (and silent) out there, and lots of it shows up on eBay.  Sadly, the majority of it has not been cold stored and results will vary from fair to very poor to nothing at all!   Even so, old sound film can be useful to test the film transport and audio recording functions of a sound camera. The film can then be removed and run through a sound projector or sound editor to hear the results.  Sometimes, you will find a vendor on eBay that has film that has been cold stored.   I have seen a seller on there from Rochester, NY with lots of films, but they have only been refrigerator stored, selling at $15 each plus shipping.  I haven't had the time to buy any to test out, but that might be worth a gamble on just one cartridge to see how it fairs.  Keep in mind, processing can be quite expensive unless you plan to do it yourself or send it to me (since I'm a lot cheaper than the few other places that process old films, having seen prices as high as over $100 per 50ft cartridge.  I'm not promoting anything here, just want you to be forewarned as the processing costs will be higher than using fresh new film).

Lastly, as Tyler pointed out, there is the issue of the cameras. Many Super 8mm Sound Cameras may not function any longer, most of it is due to the capstan belt having broken from age.  While this can be repaired, it can also be quite costly due to the degree of disassembly required with some Super 8mm cameras.  Of all the sound cameras I own, NIZO belts being made of good rubber seem to be holding....although....sadly, models higher than the 20XX versions have other issues related to failed Cmos chips which controls most everything in these cameras.  My SANKYO XL-620 cameras still seem to work fine so far.  Sadly, the well made CHINON cameras, either under their own name, or rebranded GAF, PORST, REVUE, SEARS etc have suffered from belt failure.  The earlier built like a tank ones though, look like they could be rebelted somewhat easier....I haven't gotten around to it yet but plan to.  I have a MINOLTA that still works. 

Anyhow, you need to make sure you have a functioning camera.  You can check to see if the capstan is still functioning by opening the film chamber and depressing the trigger, then push the small button to the side or below where the recording head is....this is to activate the sound system, otherwise a silent film cartridge didn't require it to run of course. When depressed, you'll see the capstan shaft rotate, and the camera will make other running sound adjustments dependent and relative to the system used [Hall Effect in the BEAULIEUs, Quartz timing in others, and just a speed change from 20fps to 18fps on many of the CHINON made designs that only used a single speed].  Just don't consider any of the KODAK made sound cameras....if they even run at all, they won't even make it through one roll of film.  They all used a neoprene drive gear on the motor shaft that turns to crumbs with age, let alone the quality of the capstan belt.  Most things can be repaired of course, if parts were available and cost were not an issue.  Just find a working camera, or check your own camera first.  Use a scrap cartridge to test the sound recording functions, and using a bottle opener on the non label side of the cartridge, gently work around the lip of the cartridge...the seam will break easily allowing you to open it up, remove the film, and still save the cartridge for reloading again for future tests if desired [you'd have to use a bulk sound eraser or large magnet over the scrap film before reloading it to use it again].

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2 hours ago, Martin Baumgarten said:

I have seen a seller on there from Rochester, NY with lots of films, but they have only been refrigerator stored, selling at $15 each plus shipping.  I haven't had the time to buy any to test out, but that might be worth a gamble on just one cartridge to see how it fairs. 

I bought from him, every roll was bad. 3 cartridges the film fell off the take up spindle and the 2 I processed were both beyond toast. The emulsion looked like it was stored in a hot shipping container for years. 

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Thanks for all the helpful information. I should have mentioned in my first post that I'm a novice when it comes to cinematography and am not familiar with a lot of technical terms. I've just gotten to the point where I want to see if I can make some of my digital camera videos appear more as though they were shot on film, but there doesn't seem to be any software that does a good job at that - at least none that are affordable. A few instructional videos on youtube showed some before/after examples of video that had supposedly been edited in this way, but honestly, I could barely make out any difference.

And of course ideally I'd still prefer to use a genuine movie camera rather than 'cheat' with special software anyway, but I will take into account all those things you cautioned me about.

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39 minutes ago, Chris Carr said:

I've just gotten to the point where I want to see if I can make some of my digital camera videos appear more as though they were shot on film, but there doesn't seem to be any software that does a good job at that - at least none that are affordable.

All I get is advertisements non stop on Facebook about plugins to make digital look like super 8, super easy to do and there are many options. DaVinci Resolve has it integrated and you can pickup a license on eBay for sub $200 USD. Mind you, with lots of tweaking to get it to look right and no perforation hole like most people want. 

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A friend sent me this link on a gentleman in Europe who is currently striping mag onto 8 and 16mm film, post processing;

https://www.filmkorn.org/magnet-striping-in-perfection/?lang=en

I have no experience or knowledge of the results...

(Edit;  I appear to have duplicated information from Roger Haney's post;  apologies!)

Edited by Frank Wylie
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Thanks, I'll check out both those links. Correct me if I'm wrong (as I said, I'm a novice) but isn't it actually the slower frame rate that distinguishes film from video, more so really than the graininess? Can software such as Rollback address this?

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Grain is determined by the asa of the film stock.  50D has the least amount of grain; while 500 has the most.  Reversal film stocks also tend to be grainier.  Image steadiness is most affected by film speed.  Films shot at high speed for slow motion will be the steadiest..

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6 hours ago, Chris Carr said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (as I said, I'm a novice) but isn't it actually the slower frame rate that distinguishes film from video, more so really than the graininess? Can software such as Rollback address this?

I mean super 8 can run at 18 or 24fps. so it's not really a requirement to be a lower frame rate. I generally shoot my modern super 8 stuff at 24fps, just like every other shoot. 

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On 5/4/2021 at 12:09 AM, Roger Haney said:

Grain is determined by the asa of the film stock.  50D has the least amount of grain; while 500 has the most.  Reversal film stocks also tend to be grainier.  Image steadiness is most affected by film speed.  Films shot at high speed for slow motion will be the steadiest..

I searched for 'asa' & 'film' online but couldn't find what 'asa' is short for.

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ASA stands for the former American Standards Association...replaced by ANSI, American National Standards Institute, but film ratings now use ISO - International Standards Organization, which also replaces the former DIN

 

Deutsches Institut für Normung eV (German Institute for Standardization; similar to US ANSI), as well as the Russian GOST, and several others now discontinued [Weston, Scheiner etc]

Now on new film, you'll usually only see ISO 100/21 with the later being similar to DIN, a logarithmic rating, but worldwide ISO is used and understood for film exposure ratings.

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I found an ad for Kodak Ektachrome 160 sound color film. Can someone tell me what camera I would need for this, and if this would be a good choice for a novice who definitely needs sound in the movies?

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9 minutes ago, Chris Carr said:

I found an ad for Kodak Ektachrome 160 sound color film. Can someone tell me what camera I would need for this, and if this would be a good choice for a novice who definitely needs sound in the movies?

They haven't made sound film since the early 90's. Ektachrome 160 is not processed using the standard E-6 process. So there isn't a machine process available for this older film. Thus, it must be processed by hand, which can take weeks or months to have someone like the Film Photography Project process it by hand, it's also very expensive. You can also process it to a negative but I haven't gotten any image out of the rolls I tested. Wasted around $150 so far trying to make old Ektachrome film work. 

Many cameras are sound film, including Braun, Elmo, GAF, Kodak, Beaulieu, etc. The problem is that they normally don't work well because they have belts and pinch rollers, which go bad. So the likelihood you can get a camera that works is pretty slim. I just bought one to do some testing, I rebuilt it from the ground up, got the sound head to work after a lot of work and tested it with some bad film. But again, I haven't been able to get any old Ektachrome to process properly. You'd have to find stock that was made in the later years that's been frozen. 

Sadly, I believe Super 8 sound is a completely dead format as a consequence. I have a video that I'm producing all about this, should be done at the end of the month. 

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variable density optical sound is theoretically possible on Super8 if one develops the optical assembly and electronics for the camera and the reading system for the projector (none exists yet so one needs to make the whole sound system from scratch). It is much easier to do for a camera which does not use a cassette system so I think I will make a system like this in the future for 16mm and Double8. I have all the components and most of the plans done but the system needs lots of precision machining and tons of film tests (film tests make the system expensive to finish) which is why I'll probably evaluate this project again next year when having more financial resources and time.  The advantage of using optical sound would be that any normal film could be used

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Well,  there was one optical sound camera made by Fujica, for educators.  The ZS400.  I only know of one in existence.  If you can get VD sound on film; an optical sound Super8mm projector should play it back.  I’ve run 35mm VD sound and it worked just fine.

Edited by Roger Haney
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1 hour ago, Roger Haney said:

Well,  there was one optical sound camera made by Fujica, for educators.  The ZS400.  I only know of one in existence.  If you can get VD sound on film; an optical sound Super8mm projector should play it back.  I’ve run 35mm VD sound and it worked just fine.

It requires a very special film to do VD. Standard Tri-X reversal will not work. So you'd also need to have someone cut strips from 16mm or 35mm optical sound film, which would be a very low ISO and of course not a positive. So no projecting. 

I think the OP is referring to a plug and play solution. Most people do not want to re-invent the wheel. 

For lack of inventing a new system, super 8 sound is dead. It would be WAY easier to pay someone to stripe new film and design a new sound cartridge. That's more of a possibility than what is suggested above. 

Edited by Tyler Purcell
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5 hours ago, Tyler Purcell said:

It requires a very special film to do VD. Standard Tri-X reversal will not work. So you'd also need to have someone cut strips from 16mm or 35mm optical sound film, which would be a very low ISO and of course not a positive. So no projecting. 

I was thinking making a preset for every different film type to be used. there is not that many so it is possible. but will of course need testing and that makes the development phase expensive

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On 6/7/2021 at 9:14 PM, Tyler Purcell said:

It would be WAY easier to pay someone to stripe new film and design a new sound cartridge. That's more of a possibility than what is suggested above. 

Ok, so the first step would be to buy a new film roll? If so, what type of film should I get? And of course I still need to buy the camera too.

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I would get 50d for sunny days and exteriors and 200t for studio lit environments and 500t for lowlight situations.

As for a camera, this may sound like overreaching as a beginner but I would get a Nikon r10, if not, a Canon 1014xl and would get it refurbished. At the end, you'd be spending 800 or so but you would have afully refurbished and one of the most highly regarded s8 cameras - you would get the best possible picture in this format... more or less. It would be like a one time investment. I hope it helps.

Edited by Giray Izcan
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1 hour ago, Chris Carr said:

Ok, so the first step would be to buy a new film roll? If so, what type of film should I get? And of course I still need to buy the camera too.

They don't make the sound stripe film anymore, my point is you would have to custom make it. 

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it would be much easier to make a new in-camera optical audio system from scratch than to develop a new mag striped sound film from scratch. Maybe some very low-end mag striping service could be possible with the normally available resources but anything which would need to be high quality and reliable would be very expensive for the person doing it.

Custom making mag striped sound film would be possible with a Kickstarter project or similar crowdfunding campaign. Otherwise pretty much impossible by my opinion unless someone wants to throw in tons of his/her own money as a kind of charity campaign to make few other hobbyists happy.

Developing the optical sound system for a camera would cost something between 3k and 10k if done right and if the camera model is easy enough to modify. Most of the cost is prototyping and physical testing ( = hard work) which takes lots of time and needs lots of film stock and processing. The largest issue with optical sound for 8mm is that the projectors need to be modified too (though much easier to modify than cameras) .

By my opinion, in-camera sound for 8mm is mostly a niche feature which is only practical for home videos and other experimenting. If making short films or docs you would use dual system audio anyway and that only makes the in-camera audio usable as a scratch track. If you want to shoot a "home video" and watch it with a real projector, then it would be fine. But otherwise pretty useless.

Personally I would like to have a modified camera which can shoot normal film so that I would only have to pay once and then it could shoot all the available stocks without needing to source the one special film stock which is made single batch at a time crowdfunded and would be unavailable for years at a time.

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1 minute ago, aapo lettinen said:

Developing the optical sound system for a camera would cost something between 3k and 10k if done right and if the camera model is easy enough to modify. Most of the cost is prototyping and physical testing ( = hard work) which takes lots of time and needs lots of film stock and processing.

so it would be from 3k to 10k developing costs and then the final system installed in the camera should cost between 400 to 800 usd depending on the complexity and the camera model

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