Photosonics 4b/4c loading time

[Jonathan Ruiz]

How long does it take to change 1000 foot film reels in the Photosonics 4b or 4c? (If you can answer for both, that would be great.)

Edited July 13, 2021 by Jonathan Ruiz

[massimo losito]

Hi Jonathan,

to load the mag with 1000 films roll it's not very long. I'll say some minutes.

The longest part is to load the fresh film on special metal cores ( you need them to go in high speed at any speed with this camera).

You can't use regular kodak plastic cores because they can be smashed by the incredible torque force... This operation will take time and you'll need a rewinder in a dark room.

Of course you'll need metal cores on both side of the mag ( supply and receiver).

To answer to your question I'll say that you probably need 10 min to wind the film on metal core and 5 min to load the mag).

I hope this help.

Cheers!

Max

 

[Jonathan Ruiz]

16 minutes ago, massimo losito said:

Hi Jonathan,

to load the mag with 1000 films roll it's not very long. I'll say some minutes.

The longest part is to load the fresh film on special metal cores ( you need them to go in high speed at any speed with this camera).

You can't use regular kodak plastic cores because they can be smashed by the incredible torque force... This operation will take time and you'll need a rewinder in a dark room.

Of course you'll need metal cores on both side of the mag ( supply and receiver).

To answer to your question I'll say that you probably need 10 min to wind the film on metal core and 5 min to load the mag).

I hope this help.

Cheers!

Max

 

Thank you for answering my question, Massimo. If you are willing and able to answer, do you know how long it takes to load a 1000 foot reel into a Photosonics 35mm 4ER camera (the pin registered high-speed camera)?

[Mark Dunn]

The obvious answer is "as long as you need", but you shouldn't be rushed. After each run there are likely to be film chips to be cleaned out, and the prism and gate area to be checked for debris and cleaned, and framing re-checked with the focussing film.

If you have several magazines you can load up before hand there is some saving of time.

I'm very interested to hear of one being used. What can you share about the project?

Edited September 17, 2022 by Mark Dunn

[Jonathan Ruiz]

1 hour ago, Mark Dunn said:

The obvious answer is "as long as you need", but you shouldn't be rushed. After each run there are likely to be film chips to be cleaned out, and the prism and gate area to be checked for debris and cleaned, and framing re-checked with the focussing film.

If you have several magazines you can load up before hand there is some saving of time.

I'm very interested to hear of one being used. What can you share about the project?

I am not working on a project nor planning for any future project. I am just curious so that I could compare to shooting on a similar digital camera with similar frame rate and image quality and loading off the camera's RAM and getting the footage on external storage memory (like with the Phantomflex 4k) to see, comparitively, how long loading would take.

[Mark Dunn]

When you have your data off a digital camera, you can presumably view and process straight away if you want to.

Film has to go to a lab so it may be days before you see the material, so you're comparing apples and oranges.

I very much doubt anyone not called Christopher Nolan will ever use a 35mm. medium speed camera again.

[Jonathan Ruiz]

1 hour ago, Mark Dunn said:

When you have your data off a digital camera, you can presumably view and process straight away if you want to.

Film has to go to a lab so it may be days before you see the material, so you're comparing apples and oranges.

I very much doubt anyone not called Christopher Nolan will ever use a 35mm. medium speed camera again.

I was just thinking "what if you had multiple reels to shoot in at least one day". Like a number of frames shot to number of minutes to load the camera ratio, considering the frame rate.

But in the 90s or 2000s, when the use of film for slow motion shots peaked, were there ever days where the film would get developed the next day after most or all of the film was shot and exposed? Or even on the same day?

Also, during those peak decades (the 90s and 2000s), were there days when multiple reels of camera negative film were developed at the same time, for the same production? Because I think if that were the case, it would affect that footage shot to time till footage first seen ratio.

I am just trying to come up with the best case scenario for film during its peak, in terms of that ratio.

[Mark Dunn]

I'm still not sure what you're trying to find out, but if it helps, you can think in terms of a reload on every shot. I don't know about the 4Es, but when this was my job, the camera would not stop and restart at those speeds without breaking. So the film was allowed to run out every time, and the preparation for the next shot involved tweezers and a vacuum cleaner.

[Jonathan Ruiz]

11 hours ago, Mark Dunn said:

I'm still not sure what you're trying to find out, but if it helps, you can think in terms of a reload on every shot. I don't know about the 4Es, but when this was my job, the camera would not stop and restart at those speeds without breaking. So the film was allowed to run out every time, and the preparation for the next shot involved tweezers and a vacuum cleaner.

Did the reloads of entire reels of film just happen on the fastest frame rates or was this also true for the slowest frame rates (420 fps) (source: http://www.highspeedfilm.de/35_4b.html)?

Also, when shooting on these cameras, would the entire reel get exposed for each shot for any frame rate being shot (420+ fps) or just at the fastest?

And what I was trying to ask with my previous post was: when multiple reels were being shot in one day (at the same time, with each reel in one of multiple cameras or one-reel-after-the-other in a single camera or with one-reel-after-the-other in each camera with multicam set-up), was there ever a case when each reel would get developed simultaneously, at the same time as each other, the next day after they were exposed (maybe for dailies, rushes, ect.)? Because this is at least part of what I meant by "best case scenario" for film when doing very-high-fps slow motion shots (with non-pin-registered slow-motion film cameras).

Edited September 19, 2022 by Jonathan Ruiz
Clarification of question.

[Mark Dunn]

I can't help with specifics as I said- I've never used 35mm. I've only every shot film for military trials, where all the rolls shot would usually be processed together after the end of the trial, which could last some days.

In addition, the 4B and the 4E are very different cameras- rotating prism and intermittent, respectively. How they deal with accelerating and decelerating film is very different.

I think it's standard practice on a professional set for film to be processed at the end of the working day, even if this means breaking a roll and reloading next day, so that rushes can be prepared every day. However I suggest this would be unusual when shooting high-frame-rate, because so much film is used up getting the camera up to speed.

 

[massimo losito]

On 9/16/2022 at 7:58 PM, Jonathan Ruiz said:

Thank you for answering my question, Massimo. If you are willing and able to answer, do you know how long it takes to load a 1000 foot reel into a Photosonics 35mm 4ER camera (the pin registered high-speed camera)?

You're welcome Jonathan!  the 4E is a different camera and don't require the load of the film on metal cores. So I believe it's quicker the load of the film into the magazine. But since it's a pin registered camera , the loading of the mag into the camera was more critical.. As Mark said below, the time of loading the camera is very subjective depending to the assistant skills and also you want to be sure to clean everything well before running the camera again..

The 4E had a lot of work into oiling the pin registered mechanism.. so that was taking more time.. In general working with high speed film cameras is a slow process compared to digital ones ( like phantoms)  and more risky ( you can have film jams at that speed).

I hope it help 

[massimo losito]

On 9/17/2022 at 7:50 PM, Jonathan Ruiz said:

I am not working on a project nor planning for any future project. I am just curious so that I could compare to shooting on a similar digital camera with similar frame rate and image quality and loading off the camera's RAM and getting the footage on external storage memory (like with the Phantomflex 4k) to see, comparitively, how long loading would take.

I think that the answer here is that the films workflow is more slow then the phantom .

You have to develop the film, scanner it and then transfer on a drive.

With the phantom you just download the footage from the cinemag and they are ready to be color corrected.

So it's definitely more fast.

Also the take you can have with the digital camera are more because you are not related to the purchase of the film. You just need a big drive.  With the 4B you can get one take at 2000 fps on a 1000 ft film roll.   Imagine how many $$$$ you need for a feature... Only big time directors with big budget move can afford it..

[Jonathan Ruiz]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:32 AM, massimo losito said:

You're welcome Jonathan!  the 4E is a different camera and don't require the load of the film on metal cores. So I believe it's quicker the load of the film into the magazine. But since it's a pin registered camera , the loading of the mag into the camera was more critical.. As Mark said below, the time of loading the camera is very subjective depending to the assistant skills and also you want to be sure to clean everything well before running the camera again..

The 4E had a lot of work into oiling the pin registered mechanism.. so that was taking more time.. In general working with high speed film cameras is a slow process compared to digital ones ( like phantoms)  and more risky ( you can have film jams at that speed).

I hope it help 

Compared to a non slow-mo 35mm pin-registered camera (like the Arriflex ST with max frame rate of 60 fps, or the Panavision Millennium XL2 with max frame rate of 50 fps), how much time would it take to load the mag onto the camera?

BTW, thank you for answering my Sept 16 and 17 questions. I did not know that you answered them untill the date of this post, when I saw the notifications for your answer posts.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Jonathan Ruiz
Clarification of question.