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Director/DP Relationship


Kyle Geerkens

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Hey

 

 

I'm having a slight problem coming to agreements with my Director on an upcoming project.

 

I'm kindof feeling that she wants to have such a strong vision that I'm not going to be using my full potential.

 

How in your experiences does pre-production work? I know it varies a lot depending on the two people. However, I would like to know if i should be involved strongly in the planning of shots or if she should do everything and then once i look it over i should suggest chages then. I was thinking that we would work very closely on planning (ie cam movement, shot selection mood etc...) and when it came down to the nitty gritty she would obvioulsy have the final say.

 

Is it me that creates the mood I feel suits her ideas. Or do i just make her mood.

 

 

Thanks

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It's her movie.

 

You are there to help her turn a script into real images that tell the story. How much she involves you in the coverage and set-ups, etc. is up to her, but obviously you will do better work the more you are involved and you should convince her of that.

 

If you can't agree on the look she wants for the movie, you shouldn't do the movie, but either way, you can't be doing something contrary to what she wants. Before you proceed, you both HAVE to be on the same page.

 

Now I wouldn't want to be involved with a movie where the director just dictated the look of the movie to me, as if I were a robot executing her orders... Some directors just want a DP who knows where the "on" button is on the camera, you know what I mean?

 

If she doesn't respect you enough as an artist to seek your creative input, then why did she hire you in the first place? Unless she has never worked with a DP before.

 

But ultimately, you have to understand that this is not a relationship of equals.

 

Try to explain to her that you will do better work for her if she involves you creatively. If she thinks a DP is just a technician who executes her ideas only because she can't do it herself, it probably will not be an enjoyable experience for you.

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Hey

I'm having a slight problem coming to agreements with my Director on an upcoming project.

 

I'm kindof feeling that she wants to have such a strong vision that I'm not going to be using my full potential.

 

How in your experiences does pre-production work?  I know it varies a lot depending on the two people.  However, I would like to know if i should be involved strongly in the planning of shots or if she should do everything and then once i look it over i should suggest chages then.  I was thinking that we would work very closely on planning (ie cam movement, shot selection mood etc...) and when it came down to the nitty gritty she would obvioulsy have the final say.

 

Is it me that creates the mood I feel suits her ideas.  Or do i just make her mood.

Thanks

 

Since that David covered your question totally I believe,

then the only thing that I would like to add is that cinema is a collaboration Art and includes all the other arts known till now.

Without collaboration, some departments may feel ''out of the game'', wich will affect the project itself.

A director is a Director, but he/she isn't the project.

 

Dimitrios Koukas

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  • 2 weeks later...

Oh I think some directors pretty much are the project.

 

Wong Kar-wai is the project; tell me who shot what on 2046 :D

(a friend reports that WKW at a Q&A said he decided to shoot a closeup film in 2.35 to "torture Chris Doyle" I guess it worked.

 

Some collaborations are like a duet, the voices blend: Bergman & Nykvist; Hou Hsiao-hsien & Li Ping-bin; lately I think Van Sant & Savides

 

-Sam

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Oh I think some directors pretty much are the project.

 

Wong Kar-wai is the project; tell me who shot what on 2046 :D

(a friend reports that WKW at a Q&A said he decided to shoot a closeup film in 2.35 to "torture Chris Doyle" I guess it worked.

 

Some collaborations are like a duet, the voices blend: Bergman & Nykvist; Hou Hsiao-hsien & Li Ping-bin; lately I think Van Sant & Savides

 

-Sam

You know that I pretty much agree here, but they are both students.

Dimitrios Koukas

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Well true enough but somebody's got to have a vision, maybe a synergy can happen.

 

I've worked with talented "recently graduated" students it's been OK.

 

The danger is not a Director who has a "vision" for a film, but a Director whose vision can't be formed by the tools and grammar of filmmaking.

 

-Sam

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Hello,

I agree with david. I would also add that having worked with a variety of different directors I would say that you will run into quite a few who want to almost totally dictate the shots, look, movement, mood etc.. of the piece. As David rightly says it "their" film so if thats what they want to do you don't have much choice in the matter, except the ultimate choice of turning the project down. Since you are a student I assume you haven't shot a great number of projects, and therefor probably shouldn't turn down a project just because the director is quite controlling about what shots and look she wants. I was in a very similar situation once in film school, I worked with a guy who basically wanted to dictate the shots to me , and have me execute them. This frustrated me in pre-production but I found that once we got on set, the fact that I had a greater understanding of the practical aspects of cinematography allowed me to adapt the shots/style he had planned for to something also more to my taste, the reslut was that we were both happy with the final look.

In short I would say shoot the project, and just keep trying to influence her in a direction that you like, you might be suprised how much easier it gets once you get on-set. But don't forget that the job of a DP is to give the director what he/she wants, not impose your will on them.

Good luck,

Cheers.

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In short I would say shoot the project, and just keep trying to influence her in a direction that you like, you might be suprised how much easier it gets once you get on-set. But don't forget that the job of a DP is to give the director what he/she wants, not impose your will on them.

Good luck,

Cheers.

Not only that, but you might find that she has a unique visual style and if you pay attention you might learn something that is worth knowing. Sam mentioned Wong Kar Wai and if I were in a position to shoot one of his films, I'd jump at it (obviously). It wouldn't bother me at all that he had already determined the look he wanted, I know I'd be learning from someone with a true visual stamp. Predicated, ofcourse, on whether I actually thought I COULD deliver for him. Which is an important question.

 

With some directors it may be clear that they have NO visual sense at all and if THEY were to insist I just do what they say, then I might turn THAT project down. I don't think you've made it clear which situation you are in.

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Here is a quote I like,

 

"In the modern world of business, it is useless to be a creative original thinker unless you can also sell what you create. Management cannot be expected to recognize a good idea unless it is presented to them by a good salesman." - David M. Ogilvy

 

---------

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  • 2 months later...

What about directors who think they know what they want, but can't quite interpret it lucidly?

 

Not to toot my own horn, but in all the short films I've shot, I've had a better grasp on visual communication than the director. Usually I'd be asked to set up a shot that doesn't quite match, whether related to the composition, focal length or camera angle, with what the director says he/she wants. In the past, I've let it go, keeping in mind that it is, after all, their movie. But lately I've been questioning whether I should be more active in protecting not only my images, but the director's vision, as hazy as it is. Would I be out of line if I suggested a different shot from where the director spikes the camera?

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Well, it's no secret that especially on a low-budget shoot (especially with a first-time director) the DP is going to be the most technically knowledgable person on the set. And a green director may have ideas that just don't make much sense or be misguided, technically-speaking (asking for shots that don't match, won't cut well, etc...)

 

However, i think it's important for DPs to remember that on these shoots they may have little or no idea what the director (who is often also the producer) has gone through getting the film into production (the sweat, the blood, the Faustian bargains...). Yes, the DP is also working hard and wants the project to be successful and their abilities to be well-represented, but that is very different than having your mortgate, inheritance, a sold kidney, and your cousin's school loans riding on it.

 

Be tactful, share your opinion, offer advice, but ultimately you have to let the director sink or swim. In the meantime keep in mind that on your next project you may be able to work with someone more accomplished/experienced...

Edited by Sidney King
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I thought "traditionally", the shot compositions/camera movments, and lens choices (if that applies) were under the director's domain, while the DP was more about lighting (making concrete the director's idea for how this or that scene should look in terms of mood), and treatments of the film (tinting this scene blue, etc.), things like that. Again, I say "traditionally."

 

Way off?

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I thought "traditionally", the shot compositions/camera movments, and lens choices (if that applies) were under the director's domain, while the DP was more about lighting (making concrete the director's idea for how this or that scene should look in terms of mood), and treatments of the film (tinting this scene blue, etc.), things like that. Again, I say "traditionally."

 

Way off?

 

Yes, way off -- there is no specific demarkation like that.

 

A cinematographer's concerns are with how a movie story is told visually using the tools of photography and lighting. Of course this overlaps with the director's work, which is why it is a collaboration. Yes, some directors are more dictatorial than others when it comes to camera placement, focal length lens used, composition, etc. - but it is certainly part of a cinematographer's job description to work in these areas.

 

Now a great director may be so good at these things that a cinematographer will recognize the value in just executing what the director wants rather than constantly discuss it. But after shooting thirty features, I can tell you that a director who calls out for a specific focal length lens and actually knows what they are talking about is extremely rare.

 

Discussions on lens choice in general happen in prep, so that when you're on the set, you tend to confirm with each other the choice -- DP:"Do you want to shoot this master on a 25mm?" Director:"Sure" or "Maybe something wider like the 18mm". DP sets up the shot and has the director look at it, director makes adjustments, etc. We work together. He hired me for my eyes afterall.

 

Directors are the final word on everything so my job as a DP is to present options and ideas to him (or her). That doesn't mean they aren't directing if they don't come up with every idea themselves -- that's why it's called "directing" and not "creating".

 

Now lighting does tend to be the one area where a director will leave more up to the DP, although not always (i.e. Ridley Scott or Stanley Kubrick). It has nothing to do with "that's your terrritory" and more to do with the level of a director's knowledge and interest in that area.

 

There are some directors like Bertolucci who do pretty much tell the DP "this is the camera movement and use this focal length" and let the DP try and figure out how to light it.

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It's interesting to note that in Europe (well, at least England, I'm not as sure if it applies to all of Europe) the DP's responsibilities are much more exclusively focused on lighting (hence "lighting cameraman"), while camera movement, lens selection, framing, even blocking, etc... is more the realm of the operator. Consequently directors often have more long-term collaborations with operators and not necessarily DP's (or lighting cameraman).

 

Just curious if people who do or have worked in the English system feel this is an accurate description, and if anyone has any ideas why/how this somewhat different style of collaboration emerged there as opposed to the American method.

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It's interesting to note that in Europe (well, at least England, I'm not as sure if it applies to all of Europe) the DP's responsibilities are much more exclusively focused on lighting (hence "lighting cameraman"), while camera movement, lens selection, framing, even blocking, etc... is more the realm of the operator. Consequently directors often have more long-term collaborations with operators and not necessarily DP's (or lighting cameraman).

 

Just curious if people who do or have worked in the English system feel this is an accurate description, and if anyone has any ideas why/how this somewhat different style of collaboration emerged there as opposed to the American method.

Umm,

I've done quite a few gigs for the BBC and I both lit and operated and was called "lighting cameraman" when anyone felt the need to comment on what I was doing. Ofcourse that was here in the U.S. not in the U.K and were news and/or documentary shoots.

 

I your scenario, I find it hard to believe the "lightting cameraman" gets paid over 1000 quid per day. They sure weren't paying ME that rate but I was hired indirectly. Guess I won't let THAT happen again.

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I think the relationship between the director and dp is like a marriage. I believe the dp should be involved as early as possible. I know that a director has a final say so but it is a dp's job to make sure the image is good. I have worked with all types of directors. One director I worked with wanted me to come up with every shot of her film. Other directors wanted me to go over everything with them from the beginning, lighting, camera placement, it was highly collabrative effort. I have also worked with directors who already had the movie visualized in their mind but allowed and trusted me enough to make suggestions. I guess it pretty depends on who you are working with. I think every dp has a nightmare story but nevertheless you are the dp so shoot a good picture.

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Umm,

I've done quite a few gigs for the BBC and I both lit and operated and was called "lighting cameraman" when anyone felt the need to comment on what I was doing. Ofcourse that was here in the U.S. not in the U.K and were news and/or documentary shoots.

 

I your scenario, I find it hard to believe the "lightting cameraman" gets paid over 1000 quid per day. They sure weren't paying ME that rate but I was hired indirectly. Guess I won't let THAT happen again.

 

Tim

 

The 1000 quid plus per day is for Commercials, thats usually a few days only. For Features or Doco's its much lower, unless you have won an Oscar!

 

Merry Christmas

 

Stephen

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Tim

 

The 1000 quid plus per day is for Commercials, thats usually a few days only. For Features or Doco's its much lower, unless you have won an Oscar!

 

Merry Christmas

 

Stephen

Ah yes. Not my bailiwick. Not saying I wouldn't want to do it, mind you.

 

And merry Christmas to you, Stephen. Switzerland would be one of my top choices if I got to pick where I wanted to spend the holidays. There's a little town in the mountains called Leukerbad, and in it a hotel called Le Sources des Alpes that's gotta be about as good as it gets. Got to spend a week there once in a former life.

 

Sweeet.

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  • 1 month later...

Film is the most colaberative artform there is. It really comes down to respect. Do you respect the people who work under you? I was watching a documentary about military combined strike forces a while back and there was a greneral in charge who oversaw the oparation aboard a airborne command post and I watched the way he talked to and treated his subordiates. All were treated with respect and utter politeness, please and thank you yet there was no mistaking who was in charge. His soldiers wanted to do what he said not because they had t but because they respected him. A DP with expirence has EARNED his strips and an inexpirenced director who dismisses what he says out of hand or treats him as an employee out of ego is a fool. He KNOWS what the frame is going to look like. Your responsibility is to define your vision of the overall picture but your job is to communicate what you want in whatever way it takes to make your people understand His job is to translate your vision into a practical reality and his responibility is whats in that frame at any given moment. As a director you have to constantly ask yourself Do I have a clear cut vision of what it is that I want overall and what it is that I want at this very moment and am I communicating it in a way that my people can understand? That goes for all the people that work with you not just the DP. I can not tell you how many times I've heard actor's talking about the directors they respect and making the comment " He knows exactly what he wants" they leave out without realising it because when it's done well it never occurs to them " and he know how to make me understand exactly that is"

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  • 1 year later...

I would think the director is in charge of the end project, now by saying that it does not mean that every body else does not count, is just that the director have to answer to the men with the money, now if there is no money and have time to do it, me as a director will shoot both ideas dependent on how much time will take to shoot them.

 

So next time seat down with your DP and editor and go thru your shots and ideas before shooting anything. Directors you might have to compromise or shoot both ideas and see what works.

 

Sometimes not all the ideas the directors have are great!! :unsure:

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