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Guest JP Creatives

KRASNOGORSK-3 QUESTIONS

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Guest JP Creatives

Alright, I know this camera is all over these forums but I have a few specific questions. I recently attempted the Gate modification to s16. Actually I didn't do it at all. My father took it to his work and decided to have one of his employees modify it in about 33 seconds. This resulted in a sloppy job done by a man who has no idea what a film gate even is.

 

By sloppy I mean the top and bottom edge of the new gate area are not perfectly in line with the exisitng gate. The top sort of flares up a bit. I ran some 16mm through to see if the bottom of frames would poke through while expsoing the frame below, and I think they do. Considering 16mm leaves like a 1/4mm between frames I believe I might have some trouble. I haven't shot a test yet though.

 

s16 is 1.68:1, correct? Well my question is this? If I have the problem with a sliver of double exposure on the bottom of each frame would masking it off to 1.85:1 work? Is s16 ever masked off to 1.85? Like when it goes up to 35mm? I don't wnat to do this just because I have a sucky gate. I want to make sure it is not uncommon to do.

 

Also, everyone on this forum talks about modifying there K-3 in this way, but I feel like no one talks about the visual results. I know the camera is loud and has poor registration, but with the 35mm primes and s16 how does it look? Could it be compared to a a-minima say with Nikon lenses? If anyone has any frames from shooting s16 with the K-3 I would love to see them.

 

JP

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Alright, I know this camera is all over these forums but I have a few specific questions.  I recently attempted the Gate modification to s16.  Actually I didn't do it at all.  My father took it to his work and decided to have one of his employees modify it in about 33 seconds.  This resulted in a sloppy job done by a man who has no idea what a film gate even is.

 

By sloppy I mean the top and bottom edge of the new gate area are not perfectly in line with the exisitng gate.  The top sort of flares up a bit.  I ran some 16mm through to see if the bottom of frames would poke through while expsoing the frame below, and I think they do.  Considering 16mm leaves like a 1/4mm between frames I believe I might have some trouble.  I haven't shot a test yet though. 

 

s16 is 1.68:1, correct?  Well my question is this?  If I have the problem with a sliver of double exposure on the bottom of each frame would masking it off to 1.85:1 work?  Is s16 ever masked off to 1.85?  Like when it goes up to 35mm?  I don't wnat to do this just because I have a sucky gate.  I want to make sure it is not uncommon to do.

 

Also, everyone on this forum talks about modifying there K-3 in this way, but I feel like no one talks about the visual results.  I know the camera is loud and has poor registration, but with the 35mm primes and s16 how does it look?  Could it be compared to a a-minima say with Nikon lenses?  If anyone has any frames from shooting s16 with the K-3 I would love to see them.

 

JP

 

 

Well images speak louder than words so check out this music video shot with a k3 (they used a windup and a TCS motored), and a XL2. The shots of the band playing i think are mostly film and some bits with the father walking around are video. I think it looks pretty darn good.

 

http://www.extremesoundonline.com/video/bsl/tilldecember.wmv

 

here's one of the cameras that they used

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=7540548522

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By sloppy I mean the top and bottom edge of the new gate area are not perfectly in line with the exisitng gate.  The top sort of flares up a bit.  I ran some 16mm through to see if the bottom of frames would poke through while expsoing the frame below, and I think they do.  Considering 16mm leaves like a 1/4mm between frames I believe I might have some trouble.  I haven't shot a test yet though. 

 

 

 

JP,

your S16 gate should have this dimensions: .493''x .292'' (12.52mm x 7.41mm.)

Actually all your frame is printed for a theatrical releas, but either way 35 or 16mm projectors, do crop some of your image.

So a 1:66 projector aperture has this (physical)dimensions: 0.463'' x 0.279''.

Dimitrios Koukas

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Guest JP Creatives
JP,

your S16 gate should have this dimensions: .493''x .292''  (12.52mm x 7.41mm.)

Actually all your frame is printed for a theatrical releas, but either way 35 or 16mm projectors, do crop some of your image.

So a 1:66 projector aperture has this (physical)dimensions: 0.463'' x 0.279''.

Dimitrios Koukas

 

Yes, I know the whole frame is printed. I was wondering whether anyone has ever shot s16 for 1.85 by choice.

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The thing is,

that if you have frames overlapsing here, this will also make some unwanted flares pass to the image, especcialy if you use pro-mist or simillar filters.

Why not try and make a new gate with the proper dimensions?

Or even find one?

I would suggest u to use a proper camera for a proper shooting.

Dimitrios Koukas

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Guest

I've used the K3 on some pretty big jobs, ie the Super Bowl and there's nothing bigger than that.

 

My advice would be:

 

1) Chuck your K3 and buy a new one. I highly doubt you'll be able to repair the gate.

 

2) Send the new K3 to an expert who know's what he is doing.

 

K3s are going cheap on ebay these days, I'd start over if I where you.

 

As for registration, it can be perfect some of the time and not so good at other times. I find it has a lot to do with where you are at on the roll. The registration breaks down near the end of the roll as the bottom spool has a lot more film on it than the top. But the shots off the top of the roll should be ok, and shots from the middle should be very good.

 

I find the best registration is at 24fps. 8 and 32 fps the film flaps around too much.

 

The vast majority of people do NOT load the K3 properly and this leads to poor registration also.

 

R,

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.

 

The vast majority of people do NOT load the K3 properly and this leads to poor registration also.

 

R,

 

 

what's your two cents on loading the K3, Richard?

My K3 loaded fine, once. Then it jammed and jammed again and I cut my losses (a few feet of film) and put the whole daylight load into my bolex...

Tempted never to return.

G

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Guest JP Creatives
I've used the K3 on some pretty big jobs, ie the Super Bowl and there's nothing bigger than that.

 

My advice would be:

 

1) Chuck your K3 and buy a new one.  I highly doubt you'll be able to repair the gate.

 

2) Send the new K3 to an expert who know's what he is doing.

 

K3s are going cheap on ebay these days, I'd start over if I where you.

 

As for registration, it can be perfect some of the time and not so good at other times.  I find it has a lot to do with where you are at on the roll.  The registration breaks down near the end of the roll as the bottom spool has a lot more film on it than the top.  But the shots off the top of the roll should be ok, and shots from the middle should be very good.

 

I find the best registration is at 24fps.  8 and 32 fps the film flaps around too much.

 

The vast majority of people do NOT load the K3 properly and this leads to poor registration also.

 

R,

 

Yes,

 

I actually have a new one in the mail. I am going to re-do the gate myself. I forbid to spend money for someone ti file it down when I can do the same. I will just spend more than 33 seconds on it. Then I wil polish it like an animal. If I fail then I will spend money a pre modified s16 gate.

 

Thanks for the registration tip. I feel the same things happens with a bolex. I was wondering about the loading comment. I removed the loop former system, but was just wondering if you knew any tricks for a good load.

 

JP

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I still think you should let a pro handle the gate, but it's your call of course.

 

As for loading, if you're working with a K3 with no loop guides that eliminates scratching and bumping issues that would affect registration.

 

Those suckers don't all come off the assembly line exactly the same, some have better registration than others.

 

R,

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I still think you should let a pro handle the gate, but it's your call of course.

 

As for loading, if you're working with a K3 with no loop guides that eliminates scratching and bumping issues that would affect registration.

 

Those suckers don't all come off the assembly line exactly the same, some have better registration than others.

 

R,

 

Richard,

If you dont mind- what lenses do you use on it?

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As for loading, if you're working with a K3 with no loop guides that eliminates scratching and bumping issues that would affect registration.

 

 

Yeah, as far as I've read these loop formers are the bad guys that scratch your film.

 

I disassembled my K-3 last week and removed them. Now I'm looking for a place to do the gate.

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Guest JP Creatives
You know you can buy a gate, pre-S16's, from K3camera.com right?

 

Yeah, for the cost of a k3. I am trying to save money first. I can do it myself, the problem is I didn't the first time. I regret mentioning this.

 

JP

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You know you can buy a gate, pre-S16's, from K3camera.com right?

 

Yeah I know but ... for $195 ...

 

Actually I was going to buy it from them but a friend of mine advised me to take the gate to a jeweler or a machinist first so ... I'm holding off a little bit.

 

But those guys at K3camera are pretty reliable as far as I've heard ... it's a good place to buy accessories for your K3. I've heard some good comments about them.

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yeah why do it yourself when you have no experience with filing? I am not doing mine; i'm having a machinist do it for me. Sometimes it's better to not be cheap, as you already found out once. But if then again it might be an easy job.. i dont know

Edited by RobertNC

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Guest jeremy edge

I did the gate conversion on the video referenced in the first reply.

I did a slightly messy job!

However the jaggedness was well within limits.I got a still frame from FSFT that showed the full frame somewhere, and you can see the jagged edges real clear.But you cant tell in the final product.

 

Yeah, It's better to get the gate done profesionally.Who knows you might want to use 1;66 someday.But if you do it and its a little sloppy ,dont panic, most transfer places can work around it.I would be more concened with scratches.Use a fine grained emory cloth to make sure the surface touching the film is smooth.

 

I did notice a little bit of jitter,flicker and strobing after my reassembly which I assume is from the sprocket wheel not being dead perfect.In the end ,i think it gave the video character.

 

If you do end up with that...i would send your camera to reel trading and they could pobably calibrate it more accurately so there is little jitter or flicker.

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Had my K-3 upgrade last month by Du-All camera in NYC. They removed the film guides and worked on the film path... but more importantly did the S16 upgrade AND modified the viewfinder to match the S16. I was told it wasn't possible by a few people, but they seem to have alot of experience with viewfinders. All of that for around $500. With K-3's going for $150 on eBay, that's a pretty good deal for a S16 camera. They also showed me a wild video tap on a K-3 as well.

 

www.duallcamera.com

 

Should have the first test rolls back next week.

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As for lenses I use the zoom that came with the K3, it's not bad. Then a Russian made 200m screw mount that I got from a guy in Florida. That's all I have for it. I use it as a back-up back-up if my 35mm systems fail while I'm in a remote region. This actually happened once while I was shooting killer whales so it was the K3 to the rescue. Hey it worked.

 

As for loading and jamming, I've never had a K3 jam. The biggest mistake people make is that they don't leave enough clearance between the film and the loop guides. I load the top loop, and then pull back the film 1-2 perfs by lifting the silver disk on the sprocket which will allow the film to move. Then do the same on the bottom loop.

 

This creates a smaller loop but that's fine, the camera will run fine like this.

 

Before putting the cover back on, run it at 24fps and watch the film as it goes through, many students are too cheap to do this as it burns film but it must be done. Push the loop guide button down so that you simulate the cover being on whilst you run it.

 

R,

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Guest JP Creatives

Another question,

 

The K-3 shutter. Instead of a half circle it has the opening on both sides. I assumed that this passed in front of the gate twice, but then upon watching each opening on the shutter I BELIEVE they only open for one frame. So instead of rotating 360 degress per frame the K-3 shutter rotates like 180 or a bit more?

 

I guess the shutter really ins't a perfect circle so this could work. My first question is if this is a correct observation.

 

The second is that I plan on buying a another shutter and modifying that shutter to represent a 90 degree. To do this I should cut down each shutter opening by half correct?

 

I guess what would anser everything is if both of those openings represent a 180 degree shutter.

 

This might be confusing, but anyone who has used the camera should know what I am referring to by two openings.

 

Any bit of info will help.

 

Jon

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Another question,

 

The K-3 shutter. Instead of a half circle it has the opening on both sides. I assumed that this passed in front of the gate twice, but then upon watching each opening on the shutter I BELIEVE they only open for one frame. So instead of rotating 360 degress per frame the K-3 shutter rotates like 180 or a bit more?

 

I guess the shutter really ins't a perfect circle so this could work. My first question is if this is a correct observation.

 

The second is that I plan on buying a another shutter and modifying that shutter to represent a 90 degree. To do this I should cut down each shutter opening by half correct?

 

I guess what would anser everything is if both of those openings represent a 180 degree shutter.

 

This might be confusing, but anyone who has used the camera should know what I am referring to by two openings.

 

Any bit of info will help.

 

Jon

The shutter i think rotates at 12fps at 24fps, which makes the 75 degree spaces in the shutter a 150 degree shutter angle. Making a right angle out of the shutter is doable I guess, but you dont want to make the shutter uneven with like a side bent up or down or whatever.

Edited by RobertNC

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Guest jeremy edge

I want to clarify publicly that:

 

I filed my gate by hand and had footage transferred by two houses.

Both said the same thing: That if you back up beyond "Tv safe" standards and limts you can see some jaggedness and double-exposure.However within tv safe limits ,my footage was absolutely fine.

 

In filing the gate myself of course I had to reassemble the cam ,thus putting back on the sprocket wheel.

I commented that my registration wasnt "rock solid" and it makes me wonder just how level you have to have that main wheel back on .Were talking about the little plastic wheel that turns the film.Held in by two tiny screws that are easly loosened and adjusted. Of course my loading could have been the culprit right?

 

I just want an opinion or two as there is a dispute on what this camera is worth.

A K3 with a hand filed gate,a tcs motor with a battery and charger.

 

Based on seeing my footage from it.What would your opinions be on its monetary value being sold?

 

Sorry to ask for opinions on this,but it would really help to know.

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The shutter i think rotates at 12fps at 24fps, which makes the 75 degree spaces in the shutter a 150 degree shutter angle. Making a right angle out of the shutter is doable I guess, but you dont want to make the shutter uneven with like a side bent up or down or whatever.

 

The shutter opening is not arbitrary, it is chosen based on the pulldown time of the claw and the transit time across the film frame.

 

If you have 75 degree openings now, you can make the openings smaller to reduce the exposure. But if you make them bigger you will get travel ghost in the picture. (i.e., streaks above or below bright objects.)

 

The openings must be identical or you will get a 12 FPS flicker in the picture.

 

Personally I wouldn't mess with a mirror shutter. It already is not perfectly flat or smooth in a K-3, and anything you do to it will no doubt make it worse!

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