Krasnogorsk-3 loading problem (?) - footage

Andy Boreham · December 27, 2006

Hey everyone!

Can anyone tell me what is happening with this footage? (Go to http://www.frozenflameweb.com/k3problem to check out the footage)

I shot a whole 100' roll and this happened in the last 20 seconds or so, the most part of the footage was fine.

Is it a problem to do with my camera, or is it merely a loading error? If so, what can I do to stop this in the future?

Thanks in advance!

ANDY

Dennis Kisilyov · December 27, 2006

Hey everyone!

Can anyone tell me what is happening with this footage? (Go to http://www.frozenflameweb.com/k3problem to check out the footage)

I shot a whole 100' roll and this happened in the last 20 seconds or so, the most part of the footage was fine.

Is it a problem to do with my camera, or is it merely a loading error? If so, what can I do to stop this in the future?

Thanks in advance!

ANDY

From what that looks like the PIN near the gate lost grip of the film, I've been practice loading my K-3 and I've seen it do that, usu. when it does the sound changes to a more sewing machine "clack - clack - clack" sound, and if the camera is open the back plate will jump (more wildily at 8fps than at 24fps.)

It could also be that the film is slipping on the return side of the loop, I've noticed that could be a problem. There is a clip that pops open (bent on my camera) it could easily do it a 16fps or higher. At that point if you have the plastic loop makers in place the loop will grow in size and film will start folding causing this type of effect and can pop-off the PIN.

This is a 100% wild guess as I am a total noob. I just happened to get my hands on a K-3 last week.

Kenny N Suleimanagich · December 28, 2006

My CP-16 used to do that, the perfs werent catching the film. All it takes is a bit of fine tuning and tightening. Have a tech look at it.

chuck colburn · December 28, 2006

Hey everyone!

Can anyone tell me what is happening with this footage? (Go to http://www.frozenflameweb.com/k3problem to check out the footage)

I shot a whole 100' roll and this happened in the last 20 seconds or so, the most part of the footage was fine.

Is it a problem to do with my camera, or is it merely a loading error? If so, what can I do to stop this in the future?

Thanks in advance!

ANDY

Hello Andy,

First off let me say what a lovely country populated with gracious people that you come from. I was there in the early nineties as the camera tech for the Showscan 65mm production of the "Kiwi Adventure". I will always have vivid and lovely memories of that time.

Since your problem is near the end of the roll and is progressive in nature my first guess would be that the magaine clutches need to be cleaned, lubed and adjusted for proper tension. If you have more then one mag and it only happens with the one you used for this test then that would verify this. Also did the roll feel really tight when you down loaded the mag? That is to say if you held it between your thumbs and fingers and tried to flex it and it would not move then this would also be a sign that the clutches are to tight. If you have a roll of test film that you can use for a test then check for this and also for progressive perf damage as both are a sign of clutch problems.

I have never worked on these cameras before but cine cameras pretty much all work upon the same principals. But it could be something else so mayby one of the other cam techs lurking around on this site might chime in with other info.

Hope to return to NZ someday and continue the search for the elusive "GIANT KIWI BIRD" that the other members of the crew and I searched for after some late evenings of pup hopping.

Chuck Colburn

nathan snyder · December 28, 2006

Andy,

I feel your pain. The very first time I shot motion picture was with a K-3 and I had the very same symptom.

http://owyheesound.com/web_hosted_cinema/k...restle%20dsl.rm

http://owyheesound.com/owyheesound_product...he_trestle.html

However, I don't know if we have the same problem. I have only recently figured out what the problem was with my K-3... a while ago I bought a K-1 on a lark and discovered, besides other things, that it had a smallplastic doohicky that elevated the film off of the supply reel before being taken up by the main sproket. This doohicky clips anto the post that is inforn of the main sproket. With out this doohicky the main sproket pulls more stronlgy on the perf side of the film since the main sproket has teeth only on one side. As a result it drags the film towards the inners of the body causing the loop to shorten which causes the film to pull the pressure plate away from the gate and results in the image I have shown. If you want to see if your camera suffers from the smae problem load your camera with dummy film and run it with the camer door open and see what happens. I have taken this plastic doohicky from the K-1 and inserted it into the K-3 and I have not had troubles with my K-3 since. I just shot a roll on Christmas afternoon with out incendent.

BTW your images look good otherwise.

Andy Boreham · December 30, 2006

Thanks guys, appreciate your ideas.

Dennis, the sound of the camera running did change when it was going totally mental and I stopped (still with about 5 or 10 feet left) since I knew something was wrong. But since it was so far through (90ft) I decided just to have what I had done developed and not fix the problem. So do you think I could have somehow re-looped and shot again, or just give up at that stage?

Chuck, thanks for your lovely words on New Zealand - I'm glad you enjoyed your time here :) Sorry I can't remember if the film felt tight. Might check that next time... although I feel like just getting a new K3 altogheter. I heard some are good and some are bad due to quality control?

Nathan, I checked out your footage so many times as I ran across it while searching for K3 footage... it's so weird how everyone uses this site haha. That's a good idea re: running test film through and observing, am definitely going to try that next time before running anymore film!

Dennis Kisilyov · December 30, 2006

Thanks guys, appreciate your ideas.

Dennis, the sound of the camera running did change when it was going totally mental and I stopped (still with about 5 or 10 feet left) since I knew something was wrong. But since it was so far through (90ft) I decided just to have what I had done developed and not fix the problem. So do you think I could have somehow re-looped and shot again, or just give up at that stage?

If you have a changing bag you can do this. K-3 comes with a film cutter on the side. Judging by the first shot in your roll, (the cat) you did not use a change bag to load.

I would not re-loop 5-7ft of film in "daylight" as you're risking burning what you've shot allready and prob burn most of the film you're about to shoot. Also don't forget about needing an extra uptake spool.

What you describe the camera going "mental" is the backplate on the gate clapping against the gate when the registration pin is lost from the film. K-3 has one pin. Find out why it jumped out during your 100' roll. It can be for many reasons.

Get 100ft of film that you can ruin or somesuch and run it through the K-3 with the door open and the film-loop toggle depressed. Thats the thing that gets pushed when you close the film door, it makes the black plastic loop formers retract. And see if you loop stays in shape. It's possible the backplate just flew out from the camera recieving a bump.

Andy Boreham · December 30, 2006

If you have a changing bag you can do this. K-3 comes with a film cutter on the side. Judging by the first shot in your roll, (the cat) you did not use a change bag to load.

I would not re-loop 5-7ft of film in "daylight" as you're risking burning what you've shot allready and prob burn most of the film you're about to shoot. Also don't forget about needing an extra uptake spool.

What you describe the camera going "mental" is the backplate on the gate clapping against the gate when the registration pin is lost from the film. K-3 has one pin. Find out why it jumped out during your 100' roll. It can be for many reasons.

Get 100ft of film that you can ruin or somesuch and run it through the K-3 with the door open and the film-loop toggle depressed. Thats the thing that gets pushed when you close the film door, it makes the black plastic loop formers retract. And see if you loop stays in shape. It's possible the backplate just flew out from the camera recieving a bump.

That's right, I didn't use a changing bag. But while I get used to loading the camera I don't mind losing a few feet :)

You say the film may have come off due to a bump. I never bumped the camera but it did come off after I let the camera run for much longer than any previous 'take'. Could the registration have been lost due to this?

I think I should definitely run the camera with some exposed film and the door open to watch what happens and will learn a lot.

Thanks for your help :)