Homemade HD Camera for a lot less $

February 29, 2004

Here's how it would work:

Sony is coming out with HD $15K POV camera at NAB. It is a regular box camera that has limited functions, no viewfinder, etc.; still it has auto exposure, which is switchable; I'm pretty sure. It has (3) 1/2" HAD CCD's, 1080p, 1080i, 24p, you name it. This will be ingredient No.1 for our system.

Add Panasonic AJ-HD130DC Portable 1080i/720p DVCPRO HD Desktop VTR, $27K.

Make a homemade 35 mm adapter. It can be made with a stationary GG (ground glass), similar to the new product coming from Germany and competing with P+S Mini 35. Or it can be made with a rotating GG, or with a vibrating GG, using efficient and inexpensive piezoelectric drivers. Rotating is too complicated. Stationary would work, but would probably require medium format camera so the texture would become invisible. Plus the screen would have to be ground to an extremely fine texture, which is not that hard of a deal. Best solution would be a simple vibrating GG screen. You'd install the GG at the focal plane of the camera (instead of film).

There was an auto focus Canon SLR that used partial mirror instaead of a moving mirror. That camera would allow autofocus, plus monitoring via the viewfinder of the SLR, but some kind of a viewfinder extension would have to be developed to extend the existing one. What is important is that Canon had basically identical bodies, and one was with a moving mirror. So one vibrating unit could be made for 2 different kinds of bodies.

Different kind of camera bodies could be used. I have no idea which one could be best and what kind of lenses would be best for follow focus, etc. One could even put the new GG in place of the existing one. There should not be any patent infringements with any of the setups.

Just remember, Minolta manufacturers some high tech GG called lentilinear???, or something that consists of many micro sized lenses that make the GG brighter. They may sell us the material.

Now we need a macro HD lens or at least some good prime and a close up lens, that be aimed at the GG. I'm sure some optical shop could modify some existing lens. It could possibly even be from a 16 mm camera.

To get all the parts will cost some $200 for the body (used), $5000 for the lens, $1000 labor, $1000 misc. Depending on quantity and where its made it would cost between $1000 and $10,000 total.

Add another $1000 for a set of lenses (used).

Add $2000 for good LCD monitor. We'll also need something to reverse the image on the monitor, or flip it vertically, and then turn the monitor 180 deg.

Add $5,000 for misc. expenses. Asume that 15% off on the Sony and Panasonic can be negotiated, but you'll pay sales tax.

Cost ($K):

39 Sony and Panasonic

10 Adapter

1 lenses

5 misc.

_________

55 K

If you'd buy Varicam, P+S Pro 35 adapter and 35 cine lens(es), it comes up to about $110K, and the described cheaper system would have a VTR to feed a NLE system; the Varicam system would lack one.

Savings come to 50%.

It would not be as convenient as a camcorder; you may need some other items for the camera to make the system work; I am not sure, but I don't think so. The VTR may have more audio channels than Varicam, which has four. 24p VTR would be more expensive, but you could also record directly to a computer with HD card and bunch of HD's, or to an HD array.

With the setup I described you'd be stucked with 1080i, which will convert to 1080/24p fine. You'll probably end up with a sharper image than if you shot straight 720p and you'd also have some slow motion capability via software since you're starting with 60i.

There are also other options. You could use 1/2" HD lens, if or when it's available.

You could also convert the image to MPEG2 HDV and hook it up to the new $2K HDV recorder that JVC will be introducing at NAB. You will need some kind of real time MPEG2 converter or computer board, or you could use DVHS 1080i recorder instead of the HDV one.

I'm just throwing in some ideas here. We may see some inexpensive or at least less expensive HD cameras at NAB, which would make building such a camera a nonsense.

Note:

If you'd just use the POV camera and an inexpensive home 35 mm adapter, plus 35 mm lenses, you may end up with a $20K camera, with 35 mm lenses, which is $5K less than the P+S Pro 35 mm adapter alone, and you'd have a 1080/24p, 25p, 30p, 50i, 60i camera, with same picture quality as CineAlta, less the VCR.

Should enough people be interested, we may get the adapters manufactured for some $1000 or 2000 a piece offshore. With the camera discounted sufficiently, we may end up with CineAlta camera with a set of 35 mm still lenses for $15K. We may even sell this thing for $30K a piece. But I would not want to be involved in any selling role.

Think about it guys; we get someone finance this. If we sell the same amount of cameras as we keep for ourselves, we each have a CineAlta camera for free. If we sell a lot more than we keep for ourselves, we'd each have enough generated profit to pay for a complete setup with a VCR and an editing computer. It will cost us nothing. Sounds nice, doesn't it?

Let's see what will be shown at NAB. But I bet my life that no matter what is available, there will not be a CineAlta camera that will have 35 mm chips for $30K.

I am in Europe now, have met a lot of people, and can probably have a prototype of the adapter made easily, if anyone wants to join on this. I have too many other things to do soon here on a project to devote much time to this, except have someone make up a prototype. Is anyone interested?

This thing would naturally need a lot more thinking put into it and I've already done my thinking part.

I'm just coming up with these ideas as I go, so excuse me if I'm totally off.

Mitch Gross · February 29, 2004

"I'm just coming up with these ideas as I go, so excuse me if I'm totally off."

Sorry, but I think you're really off here. It would require major machining and work to even begin to get this into a functional condition, which would add considerable cost. And you'd still end up with a bodged together setup that would be inferior in numerous ways. 1080 60i may go into 1080 24p "fine" but the image is significantly different.

"Let's see what will be shown at NAB. But I bet my life that no matter what is available, there will not be a CineAlta camera that will have 35 mm chips for $30K."

Careful with gambling your life there. I already told you to watch out for the Kinetta system coming out at NAB. And it'll blow your contraption as well as the CineAlta and Varicam out of the water. It won't have 35mm-sized chips, but it will have uncompressed HD going direct to hard drives, plus a host of other features unavailable on any camera system available today.

February 29, 2004

I have a cousin that heads development at one of the major electronics companies. I am in the Czech Republic on a film preproduction. He is here now also because they opened a branch in Prague that does development. They pay the engineers here about 1/4 of what they get paid in America or Western Europe. I discussed with him this camera project and he does not think that my figures are off, providing this thing was to be built here.

Uncompressed stream is too large; the storage becomes too expensive. I am talking about normally compressed HD stream that is recorded on tape.

I'm cureous about the Kinetta. I saw a prototype of a 16 mm type camera with built in CCD chip. It was some English company. Maybe it's the same camera? As Sony and Matsushita are happy selling their $60K and $100K HD cameras, we may be seeing some newcomers that will start grabbing their market share. I'm all for it. They killed film on the consumer level and have monopolized HD long enough. Now they are introducing HD on the prosumer level, but cleverly making the bit stream smaller than on a $400 DV camera. Ain't that ingenious.

Mitch Gross · February 29, 2004

"I'm cureous about the Kinetta. I saw a prototype of a 16 mm type camera with built in CCD chip. It was some English company. Maybe it's the same camera?"

That would be Joe Dunton Camera's (JDC) adaptation back to the Arri SR. Not a particularly impressive system to me as it is 1080i only.

The Kinetta is supposed to debut at NAB this year, unless there's some reason that it is not ready in time. But having tested it and been in contact with the designers for more than a year, I think it will be debuting on schedule. And yes, it is uncompressed, full-stream HD material recorded onto hard drives, no tape involved. And yet it is still small and portable, actually more so than the current HD cameras. That's what is so amazing about the next generation of cameras.

February 29, 2004

Sony, Matsushita, and the rest of the Japanese companies pretty much screwed up by trying to protect their older markets and not investing in the latest digital technologies. That's why Samsung is so successful and makes flat displays even for Sony. ;)

Foe a while only Sony and Panasonic had HD transport mechanism, so no one else could make HD camcorders. With the new large capacity HD's, the new blue laser DVD technology, even the new HDV standard, there are suddenly new and less expensive ways to record HD material.

The unavailability of sensor chips was another holdback for the other companies. New CCDs, CMOS sensors, inexpensive low power consumptions processors, all this means that we will see real competition on HD cameras and camcorders, a market that will no longer be monopolized by those two consumer electronics giants.

JVC too has a new HD camera that will be shown at NAB. This NAB will be interesting. If it will show good affordable HD products is to be seen. At the next one a wide range of affordable products should be a reality.

March 7, 2004

thought it over, got someone help me with it; it's not only possible but less expensive than I thought. $50K 1080/24p CineAlta digital cinema camera with with DOF on the order of 65 mm format, lenses, NLE editing station, etc. If you get the SonyAlta F900 camera, Pro 35 mm adapter, feed VTR, etc., you'd spend 1/4 million dollars. Here's a setup that will shoot and edit at the same quality level for $50K. Does anyone want to get involved with this project? You can write to my email address.

You can have a CineAlta camera with 35 mm type adapter, lenses and will not need a VTR to feed your NLE system.

Please note that it is based on info that the Sony box camera would cost $20K. If the Sony can be had for $15K, as Sony originally announced, then the described system below will be even cheaper.

There is important element that plays a role here. See this -- a home made 35 mm adaptor:

<http://www.moorefilms.com/Aldu35pix.htm>

It is primitive; the one I have in mind would be perfect.

Here goes.

Sony is coming out with HD $20K POV camera at NAB; originally it was announced as $15K camera. It is a regular box camera that has limited functions, no viewfinder, etc.; still it has auto exposure, which is switchable; I'm pretty sure. It has (3) 1/2" CCD's, 1080p, 1080i, 24p, you name it. This will be ingredient No.1 for the system.

Make a 35 mm type adapter. It can be made with a stationary GG (ground glass), similar to the new product coming from Germany (www.movietube.com) and competing with P+S Mini 35. Stationary would work, but would probably require medium format camera so the GG texture would become invisible. The screen would have to be ground to an extremely fine texture, which is not that hard.

One could put the new GG in place of the existing one or in the film plane of a medium format camera. There should not be any patent infringements with any of these setups.

Just remember, Minolta manufactures some high tech GG that consists of many micro sized lenses that make the GG brighter. They may sell the material.

Now we need some modified macro lens, maybe used 35 mm SLR lens that would be aimed at the GG. I'm sure some optical shop could modify some existing lens. It could possibly even be from a 16 mm camera.

To get all the parts will cost some $500 for the medium format camera body (used), $1000 for the lens, $500 for offshore labor (assuming there will be a number of them made), $500 misc. $2,500 total.

Add another $2,500 for a set of lenses (used is OK).

Add $2000 for LCD monitor. We'll also need to reverse the image on the monitor horizontally.

Asume that 15% off on the Sony can be negotiated, and we'll buy it over the internet, so no sales tax.

Cost ($K):

Acquisition

17 Sony POV camera

6 PC with Black Magic HD card and 2TB DH stotrage (10 hrs of 1080/24p)

2.5 Adapter (P+S 35 mm type, actually 60 mm)

2.5 lenses

2 viewfinder / LCD screen

2 digital audio recorder

1 microphone(s)

3.5 misc.

____________________________

36.5 K

Postproduction

8 PC with 6TB DH stotrage (30 Hrs of 1080/24p)

2 (2) monitors, 1920x1080 pixels min.

2 editing software

1.5 misc.

____________________________

13.5 K

If you'd buy CineAlta F900, P+S Pro 35 adapter and 35 mm cine lens(es), it comes up to about $150 K, plus you'd need a VTR to feed NLE, and you'd need the NLE.

It would not be as convenient as a camcorder; you may need some other items for the camera to make the system work; I am not sure, but I don't think so.

With the setup I described I'd be be able to record 1080/50i, 60i, 24p, 25p and 30p.

Alain Dumais · May 13, 2004

-------There is important element that plays a role here. See this -- a home made 35 mm adaptor:

<http://www.moorefilms.com/Aldu35pix.htm>

It is primitive; the one I have in mind would be perfect.--------

This is a old adaptor,the first prototype.

Here is the final adaptor.

http://www.kheops-tech.com/~ad3d/Aldufinal.jpg B)

May 17, 2004

Very viable concept. But the computers will be more expensive. Using POV cameras is preferable to using the Kinetta. Ikagami HDL-40C is a superb POV camera that can be orderd with a viewfinder, handle, and a sholder pad. With the POV, you have a 3 chip 1920x1080 pixel camera, with all functions and adjustments as with a regular camera. The Sony does even come with a nice remote to do that. I saw it at NAB. The Kinetta puts out raw, non-color corrected footage. The POV's output uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 signal over HD SDI interface.

BoxxTechnologies.com RS comes bundled with Prospect HD, so one can record to it compressed, or uncompressed.

There are also less expensive cameras being developed. Some are described at DVinfo.net forums. There is also a new manufacturer that is coming out with reasonably priced uncompressed HD cameras. The camcorderinfo.com independent filmmaking forum have some threads on that. Summix is developing a 720/24p uncompressed camera, with three CMOS; the price will be only $3,000. It will have a 10 bit HD output.

May 17, 2004

Aldu, that 35 mm adapter is intersting. Maybe someone should try to modify anexisting 35 mm camera as these people:http://www.geocities.com/indiecinema/Concept_HD_Systems.html