Jim JannardBasic Member
Posts posted by Jim Jannard
I'd argue that if a 5D mkII with a dual link 4:4:4 SDI output for direct to drive or HDCAM SR deck recording were released, then that would really put RED in a huge bind, wildly beyond what it has already.
Saul... we are so worried about what Canon is releasing that we are folding the company and I am moving to Fiji in shame. Although Canon has not announced what you proposed, I am quite sure that we are doomed no matter what they really do release, line-skipping and all. All our work to provide a valid option to the industry has turned to ashes it seems. Stephen has acknowledged that the the M-X sensor is something he would shoot... but alas, he will never get the opportunity. Any camera that shoots HDCAM will destroy a RAW camera. HDCAM is the industry standard... no question about it. REDCODE RAW really has no place in the industry.
Keith... it is certainly great to see you posting again. I just wish we could stay around a bit longer so your valuable input could have been implemented into our program.
Phil… your posts are so inspiring. I wish I was starting over so I could connect better with you. You are an inspiration that I obviously missed the 1st time around.
Richard... I'm sorry that our personal emails meant nothing. I wasn't prepared for this.
Well... farewell. It was a good ride while it lasted.
My understanding is that the "SATA TRANS ERROR" message is a result of either the drive cable, the drive itself, or both. Red has been getting a lot of complaints since Build 20 about this and suggest that you send in both the cable and the drive for service if you get this error repeatedly.
From what Jim Jannard has said, the reason this has appeared since Build 20 is that the camera is now recognizing errors and reporting them, whereas in previous builds it would have continued to record until the error caused the camera to reboot without warning. So the error message is just a warning that something went wrong in the recording. You can always roll back to a previous build if you want to avoid the error message, but you are still just as likely to have recording errors, only you can expect the camera to reboot instead of just stopping the roll.
I have to admit, when it happens it is frustrating and embarrassing as an AC - bottom line is that the cable and drive need to be sent back to Red ASAP.
It means you have a RED-DRIVE that needs updating, as it's generating SATA bus errors.
If you can't send the RED-DRIVE back immediately, you should update to Build 21.
Yes, as Phil points out, the actual light gathering/conversion/storage mechanism on the sensor itself is identical, whether it's CMOS, CCD, or even the original 1960s MOS technology.
Also, silicon photosensors are extremely efficient at photon capture, far more so than even the best hypersensitized astronomical photographic film.
Unfortunately, the horsefly in the ointment has always been that that while silicon sensors are exquisitely good at capturing the images, getting those microscopic electrical charges off the chip and into the amplifier/processing circuitry without introducing noise has proven exquisitely difficult. A good analogy is trying to pick up spilled salt grains with barbeque tongs.
However, the main reason CMOS sensors are so inherently noisy is the sheer amount of on-chip digital signal processing they require. Not only does that leave precious little room for actual light gathering, it's rather like trying to listen to a distant AM radio station in a room full of computers!
Not only do CCD sensors have more silicon available for photon capture, their support electronics is much simpler, and it all runs at a single clock speed, so introduced clock hash is easier to filter out.
Sony have developed a new CMOS technology where the photocells are separately constructed over the top of the processing circuitry, giving them near 100% photon capture with the need for microlenses, but that only gives something less than 2 stops improvement, certainly worthwhile, but hardly a paradigm shift.
Digital still cameras can produce consderably better dynamic range, but that's because the data can be clocked off the chip much more slowly - seconds instead of 24ths of a second. Unfortunately as the clock speed in increased, the noise introduced increases exponentially, not linearly.
You and Phil post like you actually think you know what you are talking about...
John Galt's professional history is well known. A detailed study raises more questions than it answers...
I have no idea who this "James" Murdoch is, but apparently he shares the same address as somebody called "Mary Murdoch". I don't know who she is either.
Stephen, regarding our bet, yes, I am getting nervous. I did admit at the time that a delay in Epic would obviously hurt my prediction. But we still have more than a year and a half to go, so let's wait and see.
Oh and by the way, the question these days is longer "Who is John Galt?" It's "Who is James Murdoch?" :lol:
James Murdoch is among us...
Not wanting to flog a dead horse, but did anyone actually use the word 'scam' to describe the RED one project. It's been infrared many times but I have never seen it myself.
Term was used many times on several boards (not going to go read them all) and inferred on all of them, including here. No big deal. That was the past.
The thing that is frustrating here is the clever button-pushing by a few. My responses to the jabs are not all that elegant... which I am not very proud of BTW.
Out of curiousity I entered the word "scam" into the search function, telling it to show the results as posts, only in the RED forum.
With one solitary exception, where somebody was referring to a suspicious eBay posting, every ocurrence of the word "scam" was either some pro-red poster claiming that somebody (usually inspecified) called the RED project that, or somebody like yourself simply denying that anybody here actually used that term.
The total number of posts containing the word "scam" is 36.
Eight of these were by Jim Jannard.
Many of the others are replies that contain copies of these eight.
It is not just the word itself... lots of ways to say it. Just go back and read some of your alter-ego posts (James Murdoch).
BTW, people that believed in us motivated us. People that didn't believe in us motivated us.
I think you've already answered your own question.... :blink:
So... can you use the RedRay format for anything other than Redcode?
What am I missing here?
Is there some device attached to a sensitive part of your anatomy that's going to go off if you tell me?
Has some other race of aliens beaten me to it?
You're frightening me, Jim...
It is my nature to answer every question with good intent. You know that because you frequent reduser.
Your nature is to harass and turn every real answer into a mock. When you actually want to interact in a civil way I'd be glad to oblige. Until then... it is just a joust. Your answer will confirm my observation.
<DictoRobotary = "ON"> <EchoMachine = "ON">
Another year has passed, and we still have not learned the secret of RedRay -ray-ray-ray....
The vital question of whether it can be used with anything other than RedCode,
must be deferred for another Terrestrial year!
Plan 8 has failed.
Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!
Your planet is now moving out of range, but we will be back next year.
With a new plan.
Yes! Your security measures were more sophisticated than we expected.
Plan 8 has failed, but we will be back!
OUR NEW PLAN (name TBA) IS WELL UNDER WAY.
We will turn your dead into zombies.
We will turn your chiropractors into dead vampires,
We will turn plywood, curtains and clocks into aircraft cabins!
We will turn night into day AND BACK AGAIN!
Our ships will come, bristling with a new generation of wooden tables, Tesla coils and 1920s radio parts.
Resistance is futile...
At least, we have come away a list of all the RED One movies, TV shows and commercials, apparently obtainable nowhere else, so that's better than nothing I suppose ....
OMG... how did you ever get so clever?
What is it exactly that you do?
I grow increasingly tired of this argument, not only because the numbers are so self-explanatory as to make the matter axiomatic (a 4K bayer chip does not make a 4K image). What I don't get is why they couldn't call it 2K camera for $17500 and be happy, and be able to avoid all this criticism. It's not like anyone would have complained that it was too expensive! It's not the pictures I object to; the pictures are reasonable; I just can't deal with the attitude.
As it happens having seen and played with quite a lot of Red footage now, it seems to me that the choice is between clippy or noisy (especially in the blue) and it really doesn't make terribly nice pictures, but that is, amazingly, not the point at issue!
I must say that it is nice that your 1K rant is now a 2K rant. Maybe we should just give you some more time...
As for not making terribly nice pictures... maybe you were the DP? We would all love to hear your thoughts on the new posted reel.
Nice to hear from you.
As of Feb. 2009 (one and a half years after shipping began):
Commercials Shot on RED- Nike, Toyota, Petsmart , Coffee Mate, Microsoft , JVC , Mikes Hard Lemonade , Bratz Dolls, MLB , Zune, Claritin , Disney, Klenpeter IceCream, Blue Cross, Harley Davidson, Dr. Pepper, Mitsubishi, NBA, KFC, Sears, Gucci, Discovery Channel, Pokeman, Ruby Tuesday, SoapNet, AMEX, Adidas, Comedy Central, Hannah Montana, Nintendo Wii, AllState, CocaCola, US Olympics, Walmart, Mazda, Porshe Cayanne, Hot Pockets , Jaguar, 7-11, Panasonic ToughBooks, Subway, Ford, Midway Games, Pepsi, Samsung, EasyBank, Alfa Romeo, Sega, Etonics, Ponds, Mercedes, Nascar, Coke, Reebok, Gatorade, Korbel, Nissan, Mazda, Volkswagon, Saab, CVS, NFL Monday Night Football, SunSilk Hair Products, Palmolive, Hannah Montana Dolls, Wrigleys Gum, Nevada Tourist Council, Rock the Vote, Guitar Hero, Red Lobster, Olay, Mattel Toys, McDonalds, Cartier, Sebastian Hair Products, Discovery Channel, Old Navy, EA Games, Herbal Essence, Empario Armani, GE, Wienerschnitzel, Wild Planet, Children’s Miracle Network, Pfizer, Tangueray, Tap Out, AAA, Sprint, Taco Bell, Major League Baseball, Direct TV, Coors
TV Series Shot on RED- ER, Southland, Leverage, Wallander, Sanctuary, America, The Librarian 3, 26 Miles, In Love with Barbara, Icy Killers, The Amazing Mrs. Novak, The Tracey Ullman Show, Safe Harbor, Ms. Washington Goes to Smith
Features Shot on RED- Che, Game , The Informant, Beyond a Reasonable Doubt , Knowing, Book of Eli, The GirlFriend Experience, Balancing the Books, Another Harvest Moon , Fenomen, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Undead , Mostly Ghostly, My Bloody Valentine 3D, Toe To Toe, Seres Genesis, The Combination, Butterfly Effect 3, Downstream , Forelorn, Bitch Slap, Sensored, Stay Cool, Asylum Seekers, Overnight, The Red Canvas, Gauge, Kenny Begins, Big Fan , Woodshop , Van Wilder 3, Labor Pains, Cedar Boys, Melancholy Baby, Alls Faire , 14 Days , Billy and Jack , Seaviper , Stacy’s Mom, Overnight, Cold Storage, Spiderhole , SnowMen, Lourdes, Manure, Warriors, Mystery Team , The River Why, The Things We Carry, The Frost , Works in Progress, Dreams and Shadows, Into Temptation, Beyond the Mat , Pohjoinen Ulottovuus, Gutter King, The Nothing Men, True Nature, Tossed and Found, The Sculptor, Smash Cut , Mea Culpa, Hunter Prey, Repo Chick, Drei, Red Dirt Rising, Winning Favor , Five Hours from Paris, S. Darko , Warning, The Dark Country, Achumundu Achumundu, Fair Game
Well that's what you get when you bring a jelly donut to a pie fight.
If you want to engage in a technical fight with Graeme, you had better bring a nuke and a helmet. He actually does something beside talk.
For the rest of you... you can actually see what can be done with a RED ONE here:
But this is correct, sometimes these threads read like something out of a 19th century copy of Scientific American...
I finally figured it out. Not sure why it took me so long... Cliff Clavin. :-)
In a year I am going to say that compression is so '90s and 2000s.
Honestly, it's a cop-out. Come up with a way to fit more information into smaller spaces. I haven't seen a single form of compression, except truly lossless compression formats, that I am satisfied with.
Looks like you are stuck with it until someone can fit more info into smaller spaces. WHy not vote for "fit the most important info into the smallest space" in the meantime?
I'm looking forward to seeing this product.
I can see this device as being great for film festivals, assuming it can playback a variety of sources loaded into it. What sort of output does it use to go to what sort of 4K projector? What was used at the Red party? The Sony 4K projector?
The production unit will have Quad DVI (or HDMI) and Quad HD-SDI outputs. Use 4 for 4K, 2 for 2K or 1 for 1080P output to any current display. We used a Sony 4K projector at the reduser party.
Conventional wisdom is usually based on conventional thinking and current methodology. We are doing something completely different than has been done before (more Graeme magic) so I respectfully suggest holding judgment until you can see a side by side comparisons? Under extreme scrutiny on a large display (4K Sony projector and 16' screen) we cannot tell the difference from uncompressed, nor could any of the "industry pros" that have seen REDray in this setup. And everyone seemed to be shocked on a 40' screen at the reduser party.
Not that I am praising your seemingly-obsessive criticism of RED, but I do agree that recording master data to an optical disk is as risky, if not more-so, than entrusting data to a latent-image on a strip of unprocessed photographic film.
Who said only an optical disk? Seems like there are lots of other possibilities.
You deserve a lot of credit for truly changing the world of film, and for being approachable to users and acknowledging mistakes. It's all very impressive.
That said, my beef with Red, marketing style aside, is what seems to be a conscious effort to ignore Avid. FWIU, the SDK you've released doesn't support sound. So while Adobe Premiere users can edit 4K video, Avid DS, Symphony and MC users can't even edit 16-bit audio.
The person who owns an $80K Avid DS or Symphony suite has to import sound separately and sync it with a clapper and waveform. This person isn't exactly going to be high on Red. Neither is the MC user who sees proprietary Red support as yet another reason for FCP to eat into Avid's dwindling market share.
So the bad feelings can run pretty deep. If Canon, Sony, etc. come up with a reasonable alternative to Red, Avid users have already been given ample motivation to go that route, IMHO.
That said, you've done many things that are quite remarkable and deserve much credit. And I imagine you can't launch an endeavor like Red and try to make everyone happy... or listen to too many experts.
Peter... Avid now has what they need from us and are working on a complete solution. It is in everyone's best interests to provide as many RED options from as many companies as possible. What didn't make sense was to open up the keys to the kingdom before we were finished with our own code. Things will roll out from here on pretty nicely. There are many RED workflow presentations scheduled for NAB... I think if you look back in history, it took all new formats time to build workflows around them. And we have only been shipping for one and a half years.
Tim... thanks for the help with JM/KW issue now and in the past.
Your "will be" point is well taken. We do have working sensors here that clearly demonstrate the performance as posted, but truly they are not in the market yet. There is no question that my enthusiasm and passion for what we're doing can be received a variety of ways. I'll do my best to temper it on this board.
We acknowledge releasing the RED ONE "early". And even though it was crystal clear to the customers that bought them at that time, the message may not have been quite so clear to the rest of the industry. We don't get a "do-over" so we'll learn for the next time.
RED to c.com...
I know that posting here puts me at risk of trashing, but I'll try this anyway.
I have stated before that RED's goal was to provide an alternative to film. I think we are proving that we are doing that.
I know that we are not liked here. I understand that our marketing approach is not embraced by this group. Acknowledged.
Understand that I have personally taken a lot of abuse here... James Murdoch/Keith Walters. So my presentations here were not the best. And I am combative by nature... oil and water. My apologies.
The RED ONE is not perfect. It was released as a prototype (fully disclosed to our customers) and then improved along the way. While it has been used in TV episodics (ER, Sanctuary, Leverage), commercials (Nike), features (Ché, The Informant, Girlfriend Experience, Knowing, Book of Eli, Game, District 9 and others) along with many other commercials and music videos... we recognize that we still have a lot to do to prove to the industry that RED belongs. The RED ONE was our 1st camera and we did not know exactly what we were doing. Not bad for a start, but we need to improve to earn our way to a long lasting position in the market.
Scarlet & EPIC are next generation cameras. They both are the benefactors of 2nd generation knowledge. The DR is higher. Frame rates are higher. Post options are growing rapidly. The cameras are smaller. And more flexible. The data rates are higher. The options are greater. And they are priced to own... not rent.
What you need to hear is that we love this industry. We want to make a difference. We are working overtime to give options that matter. We are not the 2nd coming. We are only trying to drive ourselves and others to a place that would have taken years to attain... in months. We are trying to accelerate the timeline. "Big" companies would NOT have been motivated to push things along if they were not forced to. We are just trying to be a force to move things along at a faster rate.
We not only want to move cameras along, but everything in the industry. Our new prime set is a good example. Better than Cooke quality at 1/4 the cost. Accessories that give new function without having to rent.
I don't expect that this board will all of a sudden embrace RED. There actually is an advantage to RED that you don't. But you should know what is what.
I have my helmet on... so flame away.
From what I have seen, there is skew with pans on the RED. It was discussed at the time of the Peter Jackson clip release. The cause of the skew was the way the rolling shutter captured the shot. It did not capture the whole shot at once. Rather it captured like a scan - from top to bottom. During a pan, this caused a sort of bending of the image - as the top part of the image was captured before the bottom part.
This scan is the cause of the skew. Not necessarily the speed of the frame capture. A slow full frame capture would give a blurry image, not skew.
Please correct me if I am wrong. But I have not seen this skew with the Canon cameras in photography mode (in video tap mode I have seen it). I believe the Canon and Nikon cameras, when they are in photography mode, are using mechanical shutter, and don't have skew. The image might be blurry if the capture is slow. But no skew.
I am wondering if there is an inexpensive solution to this. A mechanical shutter, ala the Viper, might work. But, the chip would still have to all "on" when the shutter is open. And then reset its scan when the shutter is closed. That would have to be a very fast chip. :D
You are half right. CMOS does "scan" the sensor instead of capture the scene at one instant. And there were skew issues with Peter Jackson footage shot on the 1st prototypes "Boris" and "Natasha" two years ago.
All CMOS are not the same. What matters is the read-reset time. The RED prototypes had a very slow (like most CMOS sensors) read-reset time (skew). We have been able to speed up that time dramatically since then. No one complains about the skew on the new firmware builds. They are now 3.5 times faster than they were. And the next generation, Scarlet and Epic, are even faster. About the same as a current film camera. Technically there is still skew in a film camera, just not enough to warrant a discussion. The N90 and 5D II have CMOS sensors that still have a very slow read-reset time... 3-4 times slower than a current RED ONE. That is why there is a LOT more skew when shooting motion with those two.
Read-reset times are independent of frame rates. Scanning a CMOS sensor is similar to a mechanical shutter "wiping" the film if the read-reset times are fast enough. Both of these have a "look" that is not the same as a global shutter. There is a "feel" to this wipe/scan time. Most people like it. Too slow read-reset time gives a bunch of skew... which is obviously not good.
The biggest problem with the discussion of CMOS sensors is that most people want to lump them all together. There are a million differences between them all, from pixel design, pixel size, A/D conversion, read-rest times, etc. Future discussions about CMOS will hopefully be more detailed, because the details matter. Sweeping generalizations don't work.
4 m/s vs. 5 m/s.
It seems only fair (and helpful) that you post finding the real problem... an inexpensive non-UDMA approved card reader hooked up to the editor's computer. And all data was recovered.
Dear Mr. Jannard,
As I see you are currently online, I'd like to address this plea to you directly. Please use your power and influence to discourage your followers and supporters from coming to this forum for no other reason than to leave posts that are aimed primarily toward antagonizing the members of this forum, making personal attacks, and provoking endless fights. It doesn't reflect well on you or your company, and is responsible for so much of the bad blood directed toward your products which, in the absence of such posts, would probably not even exist. As you obviously have great influence over most of those leaving these posts, I'm sure you could go a long way toward putting this to a stop with very little effort. It would no doubt contribute to a far more positive image of your cameras and your company, which would without question be good for business.
If you mean that we should "suck up" to the posters here in order to gain more sales... it is not in our DNA. We don't need it.
If we earn sales by making a product that people want, great. If not, no problem. Use something else.
What we will not do is put up with crap. If you have a legitimate complaint, concern or criticism about what we are doing, we will listen. But if you are here to trash us "just because"... and try to get our attention with nonsense, it won't work.
Let's recap. Digital is not film. RED's goal is to deliver the best digital alternative to film as possible for the lowest cost possible. RED is a young company that is learning every day. REDCODE is a compressed RAW format that gives a customer the maximum latitude possible. Our sensors offer the maximum resolution possible for the least possible price. RED does everything possible to give its customers an upgrade path for the least possible price.
If you have a better alternative... use it. If not, we are here to serve.
But if you are here just to give us poop.... GFY (good for you).
I've been Banned from Reduser
The charts came out after RED was called out as a 1K camera by Phil (then he changed his story to 2K). There has been much discussion about what RED 4K bayer really is. The charts just show what it really is. 4 times measured 1080P from the best 1080P camera. Now... that doesn't seem to matter any more? It seemed so important awhile back.
Stephen... not sure why you are having skin tone or highlight roll-off issues. Stop on by at RED and we can help you with this. There are a lot of ways not to get the best results from our cameras.
Phil's "don't quote higher authority" is certainly interesting. You speak mis-information. Trained professionals (the higher authority) use the cameras and don't get the same results you speak of. That just doesn't make sense. Either they have no interest in quality or you are missing something? Maybe they are "higher authority" because they know something you don't? Your comment that RED 4K is really only 1K is dispelled by both the "higher authority" and the charts.
Someone gets bad results. Others get good results. The ones that get bad results say it is the camera. Maybe the question should be "what are the other guys doing to get better results than I get?"
I don't post here very much because this is the one place where RED bashing is encouraged. I'm not a masochist (anymore).
This whole thread seems to have come from Stephen getting his feelings hurt for being given a "timeout" on reduser. That was probably a mistake. So we'll take the punishment here for that. But mis-information of performance doesn't seem like the way to get even.
So here you go... lots of new reasons to keep this thread going.