Jim Jannard

As I understand it, most camera manufacturers make the majority of their money on accessories, and often lose money on the actual camera. It's a proven model, and is much like computers and software.

There has been much speculation on our motives for pricing. We are in this to deliver the best camera we can to our customers... and make money so we can do it again. Our competition would love you to believe we aren't profitable with this project. We are.

Jim

What we don't like about digital is the fact that by its square arrangement of pixels it disects reality into a sequential series of boxes. Now is this how the human eye works ? And the answer is no. While the rods and cones of the human eye form irregular patterns nevertheless there are much better mathmatical aproximations to these patterns than what the inventors of digital video have given us so far. A true inventor of anthropomorphic machine vision would realize that pixels should not be arranged in a square tile mosaic but rather arranged as concentric circles.

Tomas... who is the "we" you are talking about? And have you seen "Crossing" in 4k? I haven't heard anyone who has seen it say that it looked like "video". That list now seems to include Stephen Williams. Broad statements like this only mean something if you have seen our footage. Math just does not apply. No disrespect intended. I'm just curious how you can make that statement without seeing the footage.

Jim

Max,

Congratulations on the project. No negative (no pun intended) from me on shooting 65mm film. What is the project, if I can ask?

Jim

Stephen... thanks for posting. I would hope that Max, Phil and I might begin to have a dialog about what we can do going forward to make our system better. If either still only wants to shoot film, no problem here. But the conjecture of the past seems behind us.

Jim

So Stephen... I have to put you on the spot. What was your opinion of the RED footage. Does it look like 2K as suggested by one poster? Or Video?

You have confirmed that you are not a fanboy so your opinion will carry some weight here. One other question... were you treated respectfully at the booth?

I fully expect you to give an honest answer as do the rest of the members on the forum.

Jim

I was wondering when someone would get round to that...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4232

 

Some questions that were asked a long time ago are now being discussed.

...and as you can see from the lenghtly thread, Graeme is completely open in the discussion. We wish we could have had the same kind of interaction here, but a few were more interested to pick a fight with every response than engage in real dialog. They weren't really questions, they were loaded questions waiting for any response to trash.

I said I would not post here until we started shipping, which we now have. I would love for the RED team to feel welcome enough to engage in real discussions here. Honest questions with real answers. But the feeling of being bushwhacked still lingers.

Speaking of bushwhacked, I'm quite surprised at Keith (Jim Murdoch, Carl Brighton) Walter's response. I don't quite understand exactly what he said but "he doth protest too much" comes to mind. Stephen Williams and I must have the same source.

We are just beginning a long road with our camera. It is not done. I'm not sure it will ever be done. Updates and improvements are a part of our program. The one thing that sets us apart is the fact that we will upgrade our customers as we go along. We have many features that are enabled now. Movies are being shot on RED. We will enable more features in the very near future. And we have features planned for the RED ONE that have not been announced. Most are firmware upgrades, free and easy to do. Some, like a new sensor upgrade (over a year out), will cost a modest amount but will make your "old RED ONE" current with the newest technology and feature set.

If we have distressed you with our marketing, I am sorry. It is every companies dream to have a fanatical backing. Some fans may have gotten out of line. But we have created something that people are passionate about. On both sides.

We have listened to the industry and made many changes to our program because of smart suggestions. We are still listening.

Jim

Jim Jannard

RED Digital Cinema

QUOTE(Werner Klipsch @ Jul 14 2007, 07:44 PM)

You guess? We have to trust? I don't.

Why do you not simply take say a 1K-wide chunk of your "4K" file, of the critical area in question, post that not shrunk. That would remove any doubt would it not?

Werner... sorry you feel that way.

 

Jim

Ahh and here we go again. A good request evaded like a politician. Answer but with no real answer.

Michael... how's this. I won't be badgered into doing anything. I could care less whether Werner or you believes what we are doing is real. Steven Soderbergh and Rodney Charters do. I feel sorry, not for me, but for those that are so cynical. You don't trust me? Sorry for you, not me.

I'll check back on this board in a month or so after we start shipping. In the meantime, I'll be posting on other boards regarding RED info if you are so inclined.

Jim

You guess? We have to trust? I don't.

Why do you not simply take say a 1K-wide chunk of your "4K" file, of the critical area in question, post that not shrunk. That would remove any doubt would it not?

Werner... sorry you feel that way.

Jim

Upload the 4K.

 

Otherwise, you give the appearance of being evasive.

 

I have still not seen real uncompressed 4K off the camera.

 

Phil

Phil... think what you want. And we are not shooting uncompressed 4k. We don't intend to. We are shooting 4k REDCODE RAW.

Jim

Any chance of seeing the full-sized file then?

Rather than waste time uploading the 4k, I guess you will just have to trust that some detail is lost shrinking a 4k file to a 1k jpeg. I am curious, Nate... is there anything you found interesting in the ISO 8000 image as posted?

Jim

Aren't you the CEO of RED? Or am I going to look completely stupid asking you?

I am the founder of RED. Not quite sure why that matters. The quote is from Rodney Charters. He made the statement. I asked him if I could post it. I thought it might be important since there has been so much skepticism about how RED would measure up to film. The ones posting here are commenting without actually using RED. Rodney has had full access to the RED ONE for the last three weeks without any limitations. He brought in an Arri to do side by side testing both under controlled lighting conditions and outside at night.

Jim

"I have had the opportunity to test the RED ONE camera over the past few weeks, including direct comparison to the same film I shoot on "24". All I can say is that I am totally amazed. Revolutionary might not be a strong enough word to describe what RED is doing."

Rodney Charters

Cinematographer on "24"

The fragments of the chart above show a huge loss of fine detail. I hope that is due to the shrinking of the size.

Of course...

Jim

Soderberg apparently starts shooting at the end of July. According to Jim the first 50 Reds will get build by August 30th. Now that one month gap between 'prototype' and 'production model' seems so short to me that I think they just called his camera 'prototypes' so that none of the reservation holders would get upset that he was allowed to jump the queue.

Max... sometimes you kill me with your posts.

The prototypes that are now being used to shoot features do NOT have all features. There is no sound capability, they have limited frame rates, they will not record anything but 4k REDCODE RAW... to name just a few. The guys shooting the features have enough that they need to use them. They also have to live with quirks while we bug check before production, but seem happy enough to do that given the image they are getting. We could never sell these as production units.

Jim

We are now officially off the engineering delay.

Jim

Steven Soderbergh to shoot "The Argentine" and "Guerrilla", starring Benicio del Toro, exclusively with RED cameras.

In a very brave move, Steven Soderbergh has chosen to shoot "The Argentine" and "Guerrilla", starring Benicio del Toro, with RED prototype cameras. Soderbergh will shoot RED at full 4K resolution, REDCODE RAW and record to Compact Flash.

"This is the camera I've been waiting for my whole career: jaw-dropping imagery recorded onboard a camera light enough to hold with one hand. I don't know how Jim and the RED team did it--and they won't tell me--but I know this: RED is going to change everything." says Soderbergh.

The prototypes are two generations newer than Boris and Natasha, the cameras Peter Jackson used to shoot "Crossing the Line" in New Zealand a couple of months ago.

The RED 18-55mm T3 (f2.8) CF lens and many RED accessories were also chosen by Soderbergh for these movies. Shooting begins in Spain July 24th.

Jim

"Somebody please, explain in a nice, reasonable way: what could possibly be wrong with this camera?"

 

There is nothing wrong with the camera and Jim Janard. Nice guy.

 

What we take issue with here are comments like:

 

"Red will kill film"

 

"With Red I can finally make a sellable feature film"

 

Etc.......

 

R,

Richard... thanks for the compliment.

RED will not kill film. It is a really good alternative to consider... that is when we start shipping.

RED will make feature films... but by trained professionals. Our camera will not make you one. But it just might motivate you to up your game.

"If you shoot at 4K, but want a “film look”, then you finish at 2K and add some grain. It’s easy. It looks like film. However, if you finish and screen at 4K. the result is like shooting in 65mm, like the old epics used to do. It’s pretty exciting, and will have a major impact on indie filming – but we could see no reason why you couldn’t use these cameras for any type of movie. I’m seriously considering using RED for The Lovely Bones." Peter Jackson

Jim

The problem is one specific board for the production unit. REDCODE compression is fine. The sensor is fine. I can't believe we are experiencing the problems we are having. They could be solved next week or in three months depending on how the next board spin goes. We have always been open in our development process. Up until now that has been is our favor. We accomplished so much in such a short period of time that we never thought we would get "bit in the ass" with such an issue. But here we are. This past couple of weeks has been humbling. Maybe a good thing in the long run. We will continue to be open in our progress. For better or for worse.

Jim

One of my worst nightmares is an engineering delay after we came so far so quick in one year and a couple of months. But that is the reality we are in. I have to tell you that the last 5% has turned into being the toughest. We are experiencing a maddening electronics nightmare on one part of the board development. Every member of our team is on it. I am not sleeping.

There are over 10 major movies waiting to begin shooting with RED. We have customers that believed in us for a long time. And I personally don't want to let anyone down. But we have one obstacle that is giving us fits. If our delay has made anyone nervous, we are prepared to refund deposits, with interest. We hope for everyone's patience but accept the fact that some will not.

This is our 1st camera. That is no excuse for a delay from our originally posted schedule. Disappointment is a valid reaction to our current state of development. That is what I am feeling right now. The only good news is that the RED camera is a revolution. It is just a matter of when we can deliver that revolution.

More on June 15th.

Jim

I know this is probably heresy, but it is possible to shoot HD without the phalanx of monitors - with just a meter and exposure controls - just like a 35mm shoot. I've tried to introduce the concept of trusting me, the D.P., with the details of acquiring a usable HD image but have been generally shunned for such a notion. Gone are the days when the work of a cinematographer was an arcane art. Now, anyone and everyone on the set gets to comment on the work of the DoP. On the plus side, one doesn't have to spend time screening dailies. :lol:

 

I suppose, as i continue to build relationships with directors, we will come to trust each other's art and vision thus allowing for a break from the current HD chain gang. (I'm working with a first-time director right now who absolutely must watch an HD monitor rather than watching the actor's performance with her own eyes.)

 

Now, with the introduction of RAW footage coming off HD cameras, it might actually be easier to convince directors and producers of the value of speeding up production by releasing the camera of the tether to a black tent. Now, the DoP's choices are no longer cast in celluloid but can be changed to anything a producer or director desires. (Now there's a scary thought. How does a cinematographer protect his work anymore?)

 

Michael

I can't remember Peter once going to the tent to look at the monitors while shooting. Richard Bluck was also there with his light meter to help make the exposure call, Peter always using the on camera LCD. There were times when Richard did go to the tent occassionally to verify his call and to check the difference in exposing RED vs. his experience with film, but much of the work was shot by trusting his meter and instincts... which was pretty impressive. He is a trained professional. There is no doubt that monitors play a more important role when shooting digital due to a bit less forgiving dynamic range. But it is not mandatory depending on your experience level and how quickly you learn to understand the difference between the two mediums. Our shipping camera will offer a histogram and waveform for the EVF and LCD as added exposure judgment tools.

Jim

We had dynamic range issues with Boris and Natasha when we arrived and I told Peter so the 1st day. I am going to stop putting numbers out for dynamic range until we are done. I can say that it was down when we went to NZ and it is a major priority for us, even to the extent of delaying the project for new board spins. Our ongoing sensor development will primarily focus on ever increasing dynamic range without compromise to the resolution and "feel" of the footage. This is our 1st camera. While I am very proud of what we are accomplishing, I absolutely know for sure we can improve many things as we move forward. That is the main reason why the foundation of our platform is modular and upgradeable.

Jim

?Ready for takeoff? from New-Zealand magazine ?ONFILM? (May 2007)

In making the WWI-set short that has just screened at NAB, you obviously took the opportunity to put the HD 4K RED camera through its paces ? what?s your verdict at this stage of its development?

That literally came out of nowhere. I?d been curious about the RED 4K camera for a while, and had pre-ordered five of them, just in case it turned out to be all that was promised. I figured five is the minimum number you?d need for a feature, including a second unit. I had a look at some early tests in LA a while ago and they looked great, but their prototype cameras had never been out of the lab.

I liked what they were doing ? making a digital camera of the utmost quality, and making it affordable for indie filmmakers. It also looks like film ? it has a very attractive quality to the image ? none of the ?digital? look I?ve seen with some other HD cameras.

I gave them an open invitation that if they ever wanted to field test the camera in a ?real world? situation. I?d be happy to help. I was also keen to put the film through a full professional post-production pipeline, just to ensure we could use the data all the way through to release.

Of course, two weeks before NAB, Jim Jannard ? the founder of RED ? calls and says, ?Can we come down and shoot something for NAB?! I asked him what exactly. And he said that we could do anything we wanted. With so little time, I immediately thought ?Milford ? Queenstown .. Jet Boats?, but then I thought, ?Stuff it ? let?s make a real movie.?

The First World War is something of a hobby for me, and we participate in a few NZ airshows, where we fly WW1 aircraft, and have uniforms, tanks and artillery for the ?ground theatre? aspect of the airshows. The RED jet, with two prototype cameras on board, was in the air and heading our way and we had 48 hours to figure something out. I decided to grab all this WW1 gear and make a 10 minute war movie. Caro Cunningham went into overdrive and pulled a great crew out of thin air. Dan Hennah had 48 hours to create a battlefield with trenches, etc, I had 48 hours to write a little script, and we suddenly found ourselves shooting ? for only two days. We then had to edit, do sound design, push the film through Park Road Post for colour timing, digital finishing at 4K and a sound mix. We had about five days to do that before the finished result was hand carried to NAB for screening.

I should say I have no financial involvement with RED, and received no payment. I?m sure other companies are developing similar products ? in a hurry! But I will say the image quality was excellent. And these were prototype cameras. The real thing will have several stops more latitude, variable frame rates and shutter angles which we didn?t have available to us. If you shoot at 4K, but want a ?film look?, then you finish at 2K and add some grain. It?s easy. It looks like film. However, if you finish and screen at 4K. the result is like shooting in 65mm, like the old epics used to do. It?s pretty exciting, and will have a major impact on indie filming ? but we could see no reason why you couldn?t use these cameras for any type of movie. I?m seriously considering using RED for The Lovely Bones.

The interesting by-product was the speed at which we shot. I operated one camera, and Neill

Blomkamp the other. We did aerial dog fights with choppermounts, and a pretty big battle scene. Over the two days, we probably shot upwards of 100 set ups ? a speed that would have been impossible with film. Our crew, many whom were veterans of the grueling 300-plus day LOTR shoot, had big smiles on their faces at the end of the two days. We all shook hands and said, ?Why aren?t we making more films like this?? That was the biggest thing I came away with ? the desire to get back to that type of fun low budget filmmaking. If I get some RED cameras, that?s one of the things I?ll be using them for, I?m sure.

Does this mean making, say, a sequel to Bad Taste during your weekends ? as you?ve threatened in the past ? is that much more likely then?

Whatever they run out to be, the RED shoot has really fired me up to make some smaller, quicker films.

This looks likes my error. I did not work hard enough to negotiate on this feature. My new goal is to include T-stops at no additional cost to our customer. If we have to take a margin hit... oh, well. I think we can accommodate this on the primes. The jury is still out on the zoom. I'm still working on it.

 

Please remember that we are working hard for our customer and this is our 1st camera/lens project. We are likely to make a few mistakes along the way. The only thing we can do it try to correct them as quickly as possible. It appears that we still have some time to fix this.

 

BTW... that's why we are here on the boards.

 

Jim

Sorry... I reversed primes/zooms. I think we can accommodate the zooms, jury is still out on the primes. But we are working on it.

Jim

Thanks for looking into the possibility of marking them with T-stops, or at least making that an ordering option, even if it entails an extra charge to cover your costs.

 

I don't want the indie people who counted on buying the lenses for the price you promised them to be disappointed, hence why I hope both parties can be satisfied by the notion of selling them with f-stops at the original price, or with T-stops with an extra charge.

This looks likes my error. I did not work hard enough to negotiate on this feature. My new goal is to include T-stops at no additional cost to our customer. If we have to take a margin hit... oh, well. I think we can accommodate this on the primes. The jury is still out on the zoom. I'm still working on it.

Please remember that we are working hard for our customer and this is our 1st camera/lens project. We are likely to make a few mistakes along the way. The only thing we can do it try to correct them as quickly as possible. It appears that we still have some time to fix this.

BTW... that's why we are here on the boards.

Jim

We have been digging into the history of making all RED lenses t-stops instead of f-stops. I have discovered that the quote we got for t-stop calibration initially was just too much for us to sell our lenses at the prices we had targeted. We have done some more work on this and think we can accomplish the calibration for a better price. I'm not sure exactly what that means in terms of selling price at this moment, but we are committed to giving it our best effort.

Jim