David W Scott

ah, gotcha. preciate the info. to explain myself and little bit; "by fullest" i mean-- some very top end looks can be captured on the 24p that look almost like film. do you have to go in and tweak like the white balance, the gamma or anything like that or is it just about shooting 24P advance and lighting it a certain way?

David is right -- "top end looks" are created by top end crews with the lighting, camera support and art department to match.

The DVX100 creates a nice film look, but if you've never shot film, it can be hard to identify what that means to you.

I found that, out of the box, the DVX100 looked like a good telecine transfer of 16mm reversal film (like Kodak 7250). If what you are shooting is unlit, it would look the same (poor) in 16mm and on the DVX100. If lit professionally, both look pleasing -- but you would never mistake the DVX100 or 7250 for a nice 35mm negative stock.

I doubt you will bother removing the 3:2 pulldown in editing, so just shoot 24P. Don't use 24PA, because if you don't remove the pulldown, the motion is noticeably jerky.

So, here's my recommended camera setting to get a good DVX100 filmlook without post-processing:

- 24P (not 24PA)

- THICK (not THIN)

- CINEGAMMA

- DETAIL at +1 or +2

If you were actually going to remove the pulldown and go to a film-out, then I would recommend

-24PA

- THIN

- CINEGAMMA

- DETAIL at 0

Use the A/B white balance presets to set two white balances -- one for indoor light, one for daylight. Limit yourself to these two choices. It will give your colours a consistency similar to using filmstocks (a tungsten and a daylight stock).

If you're coming don't forget your nose plug, Toronto has a distinct stink. Also bring plenty of change to fend off the armies of homeless people you'll be inundated with.

 

I'll be there attending a few meetings. But not without my personal entourage of body guards, what with all the gun totting maniacs in the city now.

 

David Miller, what a great job you've done with Toronto. Toronto does not have a single freaking police helicopter, yet city hall has money for free admission to the zoo for city councilors and a poet laureate!!

 

R,

Thanks for dissing my home, dude. Real mature.

Re: crime -- get a clue.

Toronto's murder rate is exactly the same as the national average, and is well below all Western Canadian cities and many more picturesque spots like Halifax or the Niagara Region. In fact, crime is around the same as it was in the 1980's. Statistics Canada - Crime Rates 2005

Helicopters don't make city streets safer. Good jobs, stable housing, accessible health care and inclusive communities do.

Along with good urban design, pedestrian traffic, and support for the arts.

:rolleyes:

D'OH!!!!

 

Which is the most ideal area to stay in then for most effective access to all the venues?

 

Many thanks

Those venues are all in a fairly small area, bounded on the north by Bloor St., on the south by King St., on the west by Spadina Ave. and on the east by Jarvis St.

Google Maps - downtown Toronto

If you stay anywhere in the middle of that, you'll be fine. Lots of festival goers stay at the Sutton Place, the Four Seasons, and Le Royal Meridien King Edward. There's lots of other choices in the area as well.

I like the look of the A1 very much. The presence of the HD-SDI output on the G1 seems of questionable value to me... if you have to rent a deck, and then be tethered, I'd rather just rent a unified package (say, XDCAM HD camera or Varicam).

I think the A1 has the chance to swoop in under the HVX200 and take away alot of business from Panasonic. The HVX200 abandons the price point set by the DVX100, especially when you add up the "system" costs (i.e. P2 cards, Firestore).

The real question is: how good is 24F on the Canon? Can it compete with true 24P? Or is it too much of a compromise?

Any XL-H1 users with experience on this? Is 24F useable for a film-out? Progressive DVD?

I would bet that labs that are doing straight to hard drive have set up very strict parameters to makes sure they don't spend half of their time dealing with different harddrive issues and different operating systems and the inevitable down time that gets created that nobody wants to pay for.

 

I don't believe that if given a choice, Rank Transfer facilities would want to dump their videotape machines in favor of hard drives simply because no two clients would have the exact same hard drvie requirements.

I could see transfer facilites requiring one to buy the hardrive from them that has the film material recorded on, but at that point it seems like the cost would then be greater than just transferring to a high quality videotape.

External drives have standardized. Firewire or USB2. Take your pick. Plug and play. Same drive works on Mac and PC. They have universal compatibility with any video format, because you choose that in software. The drive doesn't care what kind of files are on it. Cost wise, I can get an external hard drive for same price as one DigiBeta tape. These drives aren't exotic, they are just for transport (they just have to copy the files, no need to capture to or playback from an external drive.)

Rank facilities are offering direct-to-disk precisely because they can give you any format you want. No expensive decks, no tape stock. Just a G5 with a cheap Kona or BlackMagic, and portable drives from them or the client. If you were a Rank facility, and wanted to offer uncompressed SD, would you rather buy a D5 deck or an Apple computer that could record it all? Especially when the odds of your clients having D5 decks are non-existent? And you have to stock D5 tape at $290/ea? Every different tape format requires a different deck. They range from $10,000 to $100,000, depending on format. Then they have to keep tape stock on hand.

Some labs are making direct-to-disk more convenient than any other format. Cinelab, for example, offers direct-to-drive transfers very conveniently. They ship you a loaner drive, you return it to them after you copy your files. How convenient is that? I don't have to capture my own footage, and I don't have to buy a drive.

Hi,

 

A brand new BCSP full broadcast machine is IMHO far better for keying than DV25. If the machine is an industrial one or out of spec you could well be right.

 

Stephen

You're right, there is a world of difference between well-maintained big iron and a UVW1800. But for $2000 on eBay, you're going to get a beater UVW1800.

So to review, if I have a super-8 project in the future that will be edited via final cut pro, my opinion at this point in time is that a super-8 to betacam sp film to tape rank transfer followed by an 8 bit compressed to DVC-Pro50 codec would be better than simply going mini-dv to firewire in, especially if one were planning on doing a DI (digital intermediate) later on. However, that doesn't mean that mini-dv is no good, I'm not saying that at all.

 

I am assuming that the final cut pro color correction tools will have more muscle because there is more bits to work with if the imported signal uses a DVC-Pro 50 codec. Since the mini-dv signal is already compressed, using the DVC-pro codec probably doesn't help it all.

I think you could go one step better... in preserving as much spatial and colour resolution as possible. It's almost the same as your workflow, but by changing the order of how things happen, you could really get the best quality possible out of the DVCPRO50 codec.

1. Telecine direct-to-disk. Specify that you want it in the DVCPRO50 codec, not 8 or 10-bit uncompressed. This gives you the full analog spatial and colour resolution that the Rank or Spirit is capable of, compressed only once by the DVCPRO50 codec. You bypass BetacamSP for the moment.

2. Copy the footage from the portable drive to your Final Cut Pro workstation.

3. If you want analog BetacamSP backups of your telecine, simply make your own. Playback the DVCPRO50 footage from Final Cut and record like-new telecine masters for backup.

4. Edit the DVCPRO50 footage, knowing that you skipped the lower-res step of recording and playing back BetacamSP. (But if something goes wrong at any point, you have those BCSP masters that you recorded as a backup.)

5. Once you've finished editing, you can make a BetacamSP master of your finished program. If you really like the slightly softer analog look of BCSP, this is the stage at which you can get that.

6. If you need a higher-resolution master, your finished DVCPRO50 Quicktime can be taken to a post facility on a portable hard drive.

Here's your proposed workflow:

- TELECINE: analog component - full resolution output

- RECORDED TO Betacam SP: analog component - 340 lines horizontal resolution

- PLAYBACK FROM Betacam SP: analog component - 340 lines

- RECORDED TO Kona LS: analog component in - A/D converted and compressed to DV50 codec - (720x480 @ 4:2:2 @ 50Mb/s)

- EDITED with Kona LS and Final Cut Pro: lossless

- EDITED PROGRAM PLAYBACK FROM Kona LS: lossless

- MASTER RECORDED TO: Betacam SP: analog component - 340 lines

Here is my proposed workflow:

- TELECINE: analog component - full resolution output

- RECORDED TO Kona LS: analog component in - A/D converted and compressed to DV50 codec - (720x480 @ 4:2:2 @ 50Mb/s)

- EDITED with Kona LS and Final Cut Pro: lossless

- EDITED PROGRAM PLAYBACK FROM Kona LS: lossless

- MASTER RECORDED TO: Betacam SP: analog component - 340 lines

OR

DVCPRO50 (720x480 @ 4:2:2 @ 50Mb/s)

OR

DigiBeta (720x480 @ 4:2:2 @ 90Mb/s)

This workflow gives you the peace of mind of having those BCSP backup tapes, while avoiding putting your footage through the wringer of BCSP recording and playback. If you want to master your finished program to a higher-resolution format (DVCPRO50 or DigiBeta), you can rent a deck for a day, or send your edited program on hard drive to a post facility.

Regarding color correction and DI work, yes the DV50 signal has twice the colour resolution of DV25 (MiniDV and DVCPRO25). You will be able to pull much cleaner corrections. Betacam SP, however, is no better than DV25 for color correction or keying work. (For more detail on how how Betacam SP compares to a variety of other formats, see the excellent site run by Adam Wilt Adam Wilt's Digital Video FAQ)

I earlier said that Betacam Sp transferred at the mini DV codec range was not an option that I wanted to pursue, but that is a different point than the one you are making above. I agree with you that the DV codec, designed 10 years ago, was a very good and efficient codec for the amount of memory it uses, I just don't see it as an optimal choice for material that originates on Betacam SP or for film that has been transferred to betacam sp. The mini-dv codec is certainly a good codec for betacam sp, quite acceptable perhaps, but not optimal in my opinion.

So which card has adjustable compression in the 6-12 MB/second range and also has betacam sp component inputs.?

 

The Kona Card seems to have some choices, but if I use the DVC-pro 50 quality setting of 6 mb/second will the component betacam sp inputs also work, or will I hve to use a YC or firewire transcoder?

All three cards I listed have analog Component I/O and will record M-JPEG or JPEG.

The Leitch VelocityQ will definitely work at those data rates. It's the real-time, uncompressed-capable inheritor of the DPS Perception. You could probably find a used Perception for $100-$200 these days, and it has component I/O, 4:2:2 and handles around 10MB/s. Unfortunately you need compatible dedicated SCSI drives.

I know the Kona JPEG solution is limited to 3MB/s, but that can look pretty good -- it would be worth looking at sample footage at a dealers.

DVCPRO50 usually comes in over the firewire, but the Kona manual says these magic words "KONA LS can capture uncompressed from any input, directly to DV50 clips." Sounds like you can roll-your-own DV50 clips, no deck required.

Reason one is exactly the issue I am concerned about. The Kona card offers 8 bit in addition to 10 but but it's still only approximately 20% less than 10 bit, yet quite a bit more more memory than the firewire input. It's unnecessary overkill, otherwise fire wire is a really awful codec, which I don't think it is.

 

In other words, either the dv codec is awful, or the Kona card 8 bit uses way too much memory for betacam sp by comparison, it's one or the other, unless there are specs that are lower in terms of memory that I am not aware of as it relates to the Kona card and 8 bit and 10 bit compression.

The DV codec isn't awful -- it's actually delivers a pretty good image at a very low data-rate. Remember, the DV codec was defined 10 years ago (!!!) to allow full-resolution SD recording to a 6.5mm tape (!!!) and then for it to be ingested and processed by the average computer of 1998 (!!!) DV really was a miracle, because it offloaded the analog-to-digital conversion duties to the camcorder, and negated the need for good quality A-to-D capture cards.

If you want to continue using BCSP, you are moving the responsibility for A-to-D back to the computer. There are still lots of choices to do that:

For about $5000:

VelocityQ boardset and NLE software

For about $1000:

AJA Kona LS

For about $600:

BlackMagic Decklink SP

Simply use adjustable compression with one of these cards -- usually M-JPEG or JPEG. The quality of 4:2:2 JPEG at 3MB/s is really good. I used to edit with a DPS Perception card, offlining at 1MB/s, onlining at 7MB/s. At 7MB/s the 4:2:2 M-JPEG footage looked as good as Digital Betacam.

Just because a card comes with uncompressed (the holy grail of non-linear editing in the 90's) doesn't mean that you have to use it uncompressed.

Here's an excerpt from the Kona LS manual about the choices available for it:

PhotoJPEG

Data rate: approximately 1-3 MB/second?supported by internal system drive

Quality: Very Good

The Apple PhotoJPEG codec offers an excellent compressed media choice for

on-line quality at low data rates. PhotoJPEG can use the full-raster at 4:2:2

sampling. Final Cut Pro allows you to adjust quality using a PhotoJPEG control

panel. KONA LS allows for PhotoJPEG monitoring and/or output in SD.

KONA LS can capture from almost any input, directly to PhotoJPEG media.

DV (DV25)

Data rate: 3.13 MB/second (megabyte/second)?supported by internal system

drive

Quality: Good

In this workflow, DV is usually input to a Power Mac running Final Cut Pro

through its FireWire port. DV offers good quality, but it has lower Chroma

resolution when compared to DV50, JPEG, or uncompressed. You can use

KONA LS to playback DV projects to uncompressed?in real time?for

monitoring and/or output. Alternatively, KONA LS can capture uncompressed

from any input, directly to DV clips.

DV50

Data rate: 6.26 MB/second?supported by internal system drive

Quality: Very Good

Like DV25, Final Cut Pro also supports the Panasonic DV50 standard

definition codec. DV50 is a 4:2:2 compressed format and therefore has higher

chroma resolution when compared to DV25. Also like DV25, you can use

KONA LS to playback DV50 projects to uncompressed?in real time?for

monitoring and/or output. KONA LS can capture uncompressed from any

input, directly to DV50 clips.

Uncompressed 8-bit

Data rate: 21 MB/second ? requires SCSI, Fibre Channel, or ATA drive array

Quality: Excellent

Uncompressed media is KONA LS?s native storage format, offering the highest

quality available. Capturing in uncompressed results in no compression

artifacts, and video is sampled over the full raster at a 4:2:2 rate. Using

uncompressed maintains a higher quality in your project from capture all the

way through effects rendering. Final Cut Pro supports realtime effects with

uncompressed media using RT Extreme. KONA LS supports capture of

uncompressed through any of its inputs, and projects are output to all of its

outputs simultaneously.

Uncompressed 10-bit

Data rate: 28 MB/second ? requires SCSI, Fibre Channel or ATA drive array

Quality: Excellent, very high quality

Offering all the benefits noted previously for 8-bit uncompressed, 10-bit

additionally offers the very highest quality available. With 10-bit media and Final

Cut Pro?s 32 bit Floating Point YUV effects rendering, video quality is second to

none?at any price.

Source

I currently own and use a Manfrotto 028 (legs) and 516 (head). I use it for ENG cameras (DVCPRO, BCSP) and smaller (DVX100).

It is the equal to any Sachtler or Miller that I have used over the years. For the same stability, the Manfrotto might be a little heavier -- but I don't think that's a bad thing in tripods. It has the features you need, adjustability, height, bubbles, full size quick-release plate, two handles (good for studio work).

Stay away from anything too light. Even big-dollar carbon fibre tripods have too much "give" in them for my liking.

Because BetaCam Sp is not less quality than DV, thats why. This whole idea that any noise is bad news is a load of crap. Nominal amounts of Noise adds dimension and depth to the picture IF it's a very minor portion of the image. DV is 4:1:1 sampling with 5-1 compressiom can be called noiseless if you want, but that doesn't make it better.

You can argue about the quality of BCSP vs DV25 all day if you like... they both produce "pretty good" images. They are both lower quality than the formats or codecs you plan to use further down the chain. Why put your footage on BCSP or DV25 to start with, if you plan on bumping up the resolution later?

There seem to be two conflicting thoughts here:

1) Using BCSP or DV is convenient, tape based and relatively cheap. If these concerns outweigh final output quality, then you are simply seeking a way to capture and edit BCSP while preserving as much quality as possible. But preferably not at the huge requirements of Uncompressed 10-bit.

OR

2) You are seeking the best quality possible, regardless of tape format. You are favouring BCSP because you perceive it as higher quality than DV25. But if quality alone is what you are seeking, then using BCSP or DV25 as your telecine master is self-defeating. You are willing to use better quality formats later in post, so why not use them for telecine recording?

If thought #1 is closer to your intention, here is my suggestion:

- Get as good an analog-to-digital video capture card as you can. This might be inside a system (like a used AVID or Media 100) or it might be an add-on card (like a DPS/Leitch card.) You want something with component inputs, has a codec that is supported by your editing software, and will have adjustable compression settings. This way you can capture 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 SD video anywhere between 5:1 compression and 1:1 (uncompressed), adjusting it to get a data rate, file size, and quality that you like.

If thought #2 is more accurate, then here are two other suggestions:

- Have the telecine recorded to DVCPRO50 (which is a 4:2:2 DV codec, compressing at 3.3:1). DVCPRO50 is supported in Final Cut Pro, and I believe can be input directly by firewire. No special card required. You will need to own or rent a DVCPRO50 deck.

- Have the telecine recorded directly to harddrive, using a good-quality codec that is supported by BOTH the transfer house and your non-linear software. That really means something built in to Final Cut Pro. If file size is your concern, have it recorded in 8-bit Uncompressed instead of 10-Bit. The real advantage (beyond quality) is that you don't have to own or rent any deck or special hardware. This will work with a fast PowerBook and off-the-shelf Lacie FW800 drives.

The 814XL is similar to the 814 Electronic. Here's the manual for it:

Canon 814 Electronic

Should be of some help.

Here's the manual:

310XL manual

The Tri-X should work fine. It's compatible with most cameras ever made.

Have fun!

Define "tons."

 

Facts, at least by my count:

Sitcoms: 1 (Scrubs). 2 if you count "Malcolm In The Middle" (cancelled).

Dramas: 4 (Gilmore Girls, Veronica Mars, One Tree Hill, and The OC). 6 if you count Monk and The Shield (which air on cable networks).

ARRI's white paper ("The Beauty of 16") lists a few more from around the world. In North America, that includes "Sex and the City" and "Godiva's".

John P. from Kodak would suggest that motion picture film is bigger than ever (more sold last year than ever before.)

As to the specific question of 16mm, the best answer comes from ARRI:

ARRI's new 416 Super-16 camera

I can't imagine how much R&D and tooling costs on a project like this. ARRI must see a healthy lifespan if they made the investment.

I think 16mm (and Super 8 for that matter) have actually been reinvigorated by the rise of digital production and post production. Non-linear editing and Digital Intermediates have made all film and video formats essentially interchangeable. Whether you are shooting Fisher Price PXL-Vision or 65mm is now simply a question of esthetics. Any format can be cut with any other format, and be delivered on 35mm, or DVD, or HD, or 2K projection...

Independent Film making by Lenny Lipton is a good one, as is The Home Movie Makers Handbook edited by Christopher Wordsworth.

 

You can also learn an unbelievable amount by participating in these forums - especially the filmshooting.com one which is temporarily down at the moment - just start going back through the pages here and you'll find heaps of info.

 

good luck with whatever you do :-)

 

Scot

I second the Lipton recommendation. I think it is the bible of small-format indie filmmaking. Check out different editions -- some have more or less Super 8 info, covering different cameras.

I don't know your background, but if you are new to shooting film, I would also recommend Kris Malkiewicz' "Cinematography". I see by looking at Amazon.com that new editions of this book are co-authored with David Mullen -- a definite bonus.

If you are really starting out, you should get one really good book on shooting still photography -- that includes basic lens theory, exposure, zone system and lighting.

Is there a simple and cheap method to check the running speed on Super 8 cameras?

I believe Clive mentioned that his Tobin Speed Checker is out of production... and also would cost actual money.

I could film a clock (with a second hand) but that requires burning film, and getting a frame-accurate transfer.

I would like to be able to quickly assess second-hand Super 8 cameras without too much hassle or expenditure. I don't need accuracy to the third decimal point. I'd like to know whether a camera set to 24FPS is "a little fast" or a "little slow".

Perhaps there is a computer utililty? A computer monitor at 60 or 70hz should refresh often enough to provide a reasonable checking tool... (i.e. use a dental mirror to look through the camera gate with the camera aimed at a 24FPS pattern.)

Any other ideas?

Dave

The camera have sensor for load DX code of speed of film from film magzine on light meter of camera.

What range of film speeds will this camera read? Many Super 8 cameras will only detect 40 ASA or 160 ASA film.

If this camera can read the speeds of today's stocks (64, 200, 500) then it is much more interesting...

That sounds encouraging. Do you think he actually color corrected on the G4 as well?

Yeah, he does the whole online. The only part he farms out is complex CGI and compositing -- more for expertise and professionalism than hardware. He provides the 10 bit files to the compositor, who returns finished sequences, and it all goes back into Final Cut on the Powerbook.

Very inspiring to see. This stuff is the real deal -- shot on 35mm, delivered on DigiBeta for national airplay.

For 10 bit, the drives have to spin faster, no?

 

Is anyone switching back and forth between dv firewire and 10 bit edit jobs, or do most people dedicate their NLE to either 10 bit or DV firewire, but not both?

I've seen 10-bit SD being edited on a newish G4 Powerbook, with Lacie Firewire 800 drives.

It seemed to work great for the guy using it (a music video director/editor.) I never saw any dropped frames. The colour space is fantastic -- compositing was nice and clean (compared to DV). When he was done, he took the drive in to a place with a BlackMagic card and a DigiBeta deck, and voila! Finished DigiBeta tape, cut with the same kind of convenience as MiniDV.

Hi David, I happened to have a "spare" Sankyo CM 400 so I did an experiment on your behalf. I used a minature 9 volt battery and I touched the 9 volt battery terminals to the internal leads on the Sankyo. The camera fired right up. Then I was wondering what would happen if I switched polarity. I do not recommend this for most Super-8 camers because apparently some of them will instantly electronically burn out.

 

But in this instance, not only did the Sankyo camera fire up when I reversed the terminals on the 9 volt battery, but the camera appears to run in reverse! I am open to any warnings or "don't do that again because......" experiences anyone out there may have.

 

I also don't really recommend using a nine volt battery. The Sankyo runs off of four 1.5 volt batteries which equal 6 volts so I don't know what would happen if one used 9 volts for any prolonged time. I also would never leave such a camera powered with incorrect voltage so the only purpose for doing this is to determine correct polarity by watching which direction the internal motorized spindle in the Sankyo is moving. The internal Super-8 motorized advance spindle should move in the counterclockwise direction.

Thanks Alessandro, I really appreciate you taking the time (and risk) to conduct this experiment. I've got a new AA pack that I will wire in.

Maybe if I'm feeling risky I'll try a nine volt and see if she'll do 24fps! :lol:

It actually seems like a lovely camera -- a nice design. I also like that it will meter 64T properly.

Cheers,

Dave

I just picked up a Sankyo Super CM 300 camera.

On closer inspection, I see that it is missing the interal battery carrier. I am willing to hardwire a new 4xAA battery clip into the camera, as the wiring is easily accessible in the handle.

But, I don't want to miswire and blow anything up. :rolleyes:

Does anyone have info or ideas on wiring of the battery holder in this camera? i.e. Standard wire colours, or polarity of contacts for the original (missing) battery case?

I suspect this info would be the same for the whole Super CM line. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Our TVT-16 telecine machine might possibly be out in a few months. This will be for positive/reversal and not intended for negative however. I have preliminary specs posted on the website http://www.tobincinemasystems.com .

Hi Clive,

Any chance that machine will be Super-16 switchable? Or be able to pull out wide enough to do Ultra 16?

Dave

I have two suggestions. One is about long-term professional development, and the other is about prepping for your show.

Firstly, be conversant with editing. Cut as much drama as you can get your hands on. Ask acquaintances for video dubs of their rushes from old projects. Shoot friends doing dialog excerises. Learn the rhythms of editing, what makes a scene work, and how you like to cut. If you know all of this ahead of time, you will be your own best friend on the set. You will have an instinct for the kind of coverage you need for the kind of scene you are trying to capture.

Secondly, know the dramatic rise and fall of every moment in your script. In preproduction, break down every emotional beat. Know what every character wants, what they are doing about it, and how they act out on other characters. When you have thought through your script beat-for-beat, then you have the ability to know what kind of coverage you need. You can adjust your coverage for location, acting styles, deadlines... and still be positive of what is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that you capture in your coverage.

By following these two pieces of advice, I find that I have widely varying amounts of coverage on different scenes. I don't follow the same grocery list of shots for every scene. I capture as many or as few setups as I know the script has dictated, and that I want to have in the cutting room. By being more judicious with some setups, I have more time to spend on scenes that demand more coverage. I also have more time to spend on additional takes, which is a function of how quickly each actor warms up. (Some deliver their best on Take 2, some always need Take 6 or 7.)

Chad,

 

Could you elaborate? $100 for a super8 camera?

 

Thanks,

 

Eric

It's the instant film-look: shoot film.

Of course, it's not 35mm, so the questions of depth of field, camera handling, etc. are all similar to DV. But if you are looking for the texture, colour and cadence of motion picture film, then Super 8 delivers.

Of course, ebay and garage sales are the ubiquitous source of cheap cameras:

A simple Bauer camera

A nice litttle Elmo with 24 fps and manual exposure

The well-regarded Beaulieu 4008

(I'm not affiliated with any of these folks, by the way. Just wanted to show you what you can find in 2 minutes...)

If you want something clean and with a guarantee, you can turn to more reputable sources:

Du-All Camera's Super 8 page

And once you have a camera, you can put a couple of Kodak's latest VISION2 negative stocks in them. Talk about the ultimate film look... use the same film stock in current use on 35mm features.

Kodak's current Super 8 stocks

I know the thread is really about film look, but I think the reaction from Kirk Productions is typical -- many people don't know that good Super 8 cameras are readily available for cheap, and new films are available off the shelf from Kodak. Super 8 is easier to integrate into a digital postproduction flow than ever before, so it really can work for indie filmmakers.