jan von krogh

i suppose she is using jpeg for this, which would a bad quality. there has been evolution in datareduction, and the redcoded images offer a somewhat higher quality than your mums email-jpegs. if she would like to get even better quality to your family, she should go jpeg2000 instead or even better, use one of the up-to-date state-of-the-art waveletcodecs. redcode is exactly this. the trick is just how much info you squeeze in the target. reducing the image is easy, making it fast and in good quality requires some engineering. you should inform the DCI about your findings, they happen to have defined the digital cinematic standard as datareduced. joking aside, i didn´t see the redcode in the internet the first time, i saw it at IBC. red had 4k projection there. and we for sure plan to use datareduction whenever it makes sense as we and the whole industry is doing it since years.

the redcode of the second image is 540kilobyte for the orignal 4k image. impressive. final data rate will be at least the double. encoding was done on softwarebasis, will be burnt into silicon for production. my cat for sure isn´t, even if she has the hobby to operate motorized faders on the NLEs mixer....

my cat looked at it and purred.

repeating wishful thinking like a mantra won´t make it true. full sensor array is 4900 on 2540. active on s35@4k is 4520 on 2540. but then, wo needs facts, when he has opinions instead. no. look, when you need lectures on the state of the art bayer-filters technology, then take some. As you write yourself, your popular science approach might -have- been vaild for non-distributed non-pattering non-weighted -standard- bayer. That was in the late 70ies. Since then, when Mr. Dr. Bryce E. Bayer created the first implementation, as you -might- have noticed, digital technology has evolved a bit. i won´t go into the details of judging the quality of digital interpolation algorithms beyond the simply -basics- that in the redistribution and dealiasing of todays technology, you can weighten sharpness/speed/alias and typical factors are ~1 on 1.3 i don´t know what kind of mathematics you do use. even following your wrong parameters and assumptions you make miscalculations. (the red sensor isnt 4:2:2, its 12 Megapixel, but i suppose you didn´t check your facts there as with the resolution) aha. i think you should head directly to www.red.com, download some 4.9k to 4k downrez and measure a little bit. you are in for a surprise. sorry, i hate to burst your bubble, but then.... http://www.arri.de/entry/products.htm ... the D20 has 2880 x 1620 active pixels - the red 4520 x 2540 active pixels. So is ARRI part of this conspiracy then? The ARRI D20 is (following your bizarre mathematics and outdated debayer technology assumptions) only 1K then? Good to know... Ok, lets conclude. a) ARRI and RED are deceitful and you are right B) ARRI and RED understand CMOS/Bayer-Design and you have a little bit of learning to do. if you -really- think that you have the scoop there, time to inform the press. i think the fine engineers at panavision, arri, red, dalsa, thompson and sony wouldn´t bother to give you a little bit more actual insight.

some 5,6 users in this particular subforum often use bad language and get insulting. trying to disguise that as "freedom of speech" is not all to intelligent. personal vendetta, emotions and professional discussion & opinions don´t mix very good.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=76711 impressive.

you can download sequences shot in studio here: http://red.com/gallery-video.htm they are only 1024*512, i saw them projected on 4K at the digital cinema in amsterdam while IBC. If you want to see the images moving in all their glory, next screening will be hollywood, last was new york. http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/10/red-upd...footage-in.html i have also the published 4K umcompressed raw shots on our network here - but i am not sure if distributing them is allowed. new stuff is mostly introduced on www.dvxuser.com, sadly, as i would prefer to see it here. yes, so far one had to go to tradeshows, cinegear, ibc etc to see it first hand. anyhow, if they can keep their schedule (which i personally think is hard), they want to have a dozen of prototypes running next month... hopefully more examples will be seen then. what i (and the other people of this company who saw the images at 4k) can say for sure: - noise/grain : very good, almost nothing - DOF : S35 - Resolution : excellent - dynamic range : harder to tell, as references were not given. impressive anyhow was a shot of a silver porsche in front of a 2K arri with good resolution in the shadows. red expect minimum 66db which roughly translates to 11 stops, but then there are different ways to calculate digital sensor dynamics. also keep in mind, that debayer, pixelcorrection, colorprofiling etc. are all absent or preliminary, and the resolution is 4 times higher than 2k.

i beg to differ. indeed, it is, but then i certainly would not rely on internet bulletin boards to have my ego flattered. may i point out that in 3 sentences you are using 2 times "a**" and "poop"? i don´t think that this is a good unemotional, professional language. i agree. ~800, nobody, even red doesn´t know the exact number. when we ordered the 2nd two days ago, we got a letter back "please allow us to cut through all the reservations we are getting, it will take some days". if they are able to manufacture and deliver the camera in their planned timeframe, it will be interesting how many cameras will be sold 2007. Also, angenieux, cooke and zeiss will be -quite- happy. demand for ~800 * zoom & prime, looks like they will get good business if red 1 materializes.

My way was the opposite - moved from animation/camera/direction to production and rental. one has to be pragmatic and agnostic. workflow counts, quality counts, cost counts. emotional feelings towards certain manufacturers are secondary. certain indivduals here are behaving in a manner worth prosecution. i don´t care that much, but one of the most successful entrepreneurs of our time might be indeed interested in his public reception. amusing : the red camera itself is the most inexpensive piece of gear in the workflow here. starting with zeiss primeset & angenieux zoom in front of the camera, going over uncompressed discrecorders and HDCAM vtrs, being monitored on class 1 1080p monitors on set to the edit, CC and film/DCI out, every single piece of gear is more expensive than the camera. quite a change in paradigms. however, what i learned when hdcam&sr were introduced here a longtime ago - you have to present your point. many of the nay-sayers are conservative -and- unexperienced with the gear they ramble about. as i plan to get red cameras here in the pipeline, i will qualify speculation as speculation, bias as bias and fact as fact. an interesting phenomena. sometimes good new tools are quantum leaping and generate the buzz & their momentum on their own. it was quite similar when discreet logic flame was introduced. the oldschool blackbox-graphics guys were the first ones to cry "fraud!", the more innovative ones looked at it, bought it and moved on.

Hello Stephen, yes, you are right, and we can also assume that a small percentage of the corps. and individuals who ordered won´t buy the camera finally, for the most different reasons.

mr. rhodes, i suppose your manners aren´t to sophisticated, and nobody is responsible for a bad education he got, however, could you at least try to behave or pretend to behave like a social being in public? thank you very much.

in case you missed that (it seems so) - prototype colorchart has been published ~ 2 months ago. just search on dvxuser.com. as you know, news are no longer shared directly by the devs here. in case you missed that (it seems so) - prototype raw 4k greenscreen footage had been published ~ 1 months ago. just search on dvxuser.com. as you know, news are no longer shared directly by the devs here. but i think the image was only online for some weeks. i have a copy here in the network. then i would recommend to stop being bored and leaving the red forum to more interesting ones instead of sharing the bad mood here. or, if you want some solid talk & info about red, visit dvxuser.com as well, there you wouldn´t have missed the uncompressed & colorchart images. ~800 35mm sensor PL-mount cameras sold is really a hard judgement, isn´t it?

this is only personal speculation, correct? I rather think that a problem of this particular forum here is that, meanwhile for some people the glass may be half full or empty, many poster here rather behave as the glass would be broken. i hardly find professional critical approaches here. personal attacks and hostile manners however are quite popular. sadly, this made this forum 3hrd class for the red camera, as it already has alienated many buyers and the developers of the camera who won´t post here anymore. yes, the buyers sociology span from topend rentalhouses like ludwig, otto nemenz, postproduction studios over seasoned DOPs & directors, production corps, engaged semipros to individuals, collectors, broadcasters, heck even students who plan to rent it out to their university. the ~700-800 reds so far will -if red will deliver- shake up rental business quite a bit. i expect heavy demand upcoming for our 35mm lenses and 2k/4k DI, however i suppose our arri 35mm will not fade out of demand in 2007. i suppose that many of the younger and not so rich buyers will go photolenses... and maybe some won´t be able to collect enough money and sell theirs. from now on reservations are closed. RED employees saif that they would open for orders again ~april (NAB?). I hope that they have a year worth of backlog - that would give our two REDs a good year to pay for themself.

i don´t know what kind of waveform you are showing there. however, here is a vector, wave, rgb parade and gamut one. -note- clipped white shows as full lines at 255, not details below at 235-255. furthermore please have a look at dvxuser.com. there are come cced images which show the detail in the whites.

that might be the explanation why i at once loaded it in the calibrated 2k di and 709 pipeline. possibly to see it on the class 1 and measure it on the vectorwave? 4 stop range daylight. aha. i suppose you are polemic, correct? having spend my younger years in france and now working and living in berlin, i can cleary say that we have pity with people like karl rove and many people on this side of the pond don´t understand why figures like him are in power in the usa. if you ask gently i will post them. :)

i don´t have religious or spiritual feelings about movieproduction, do you? my main question are: 0A) how good will the images be (what i have seen at ibc on the 4k showing and in the web is convincing so far) 1) when do we get delivery of our 2 orders. 2) will the designgoals be reached 3) how will this affect the cinealta&35mm production & rental space in which my company is working in then many pratical question which rather regard my company, not red, as: does it make sense to convert the 16mm glass. will i switch some 2007 productions to red or rather earn by renting out. how fast will our dedicated redcineworkstations have to be. will many customers go 4k or will they stay 2k downconvert. do i need to buy more 35mm lenses etc.pp sir, no need to get insulting. maybe you should take a deep breath and get rid of these aggressions and reflect what is frustrating you in real life that you get rude in internetforums. so, to dive a little bit into my "gaps of knowledge", let me educate a little bit. 1st) people supposed that the milk area clipped. the 709 class 1 shows details there. the tektronix wave/vector (i suppose you are familar with 709 measurement) shows different levels there as well. Clipped images are called clipped as they do not show level but... clip :) on a vector/wave btw. not on a noncalibrated computerdisplay. 2nd) Amount of noise/grain. Easy to measure on any constant area. By enlarging the wavedisplay of the measuring gear, noise and grain shows up as patterns of different levels on constant areas (front of the bus etc) even if below visibility. Be it 35mm, hdcam or whatever. The image of the red is pretty noisefree, as i mentioned, even better than typical midrange cinealta/35mm noise/grain. What is becoming visible on the wave btw is the quantisation rounding errors - i suppose they base on the jepg image, but that is somethin you can´t measure as this could originate in sensor, debayer pattern logic, redcine in addition to the jpeg. In the movieproductionuniverse i live in people are able to see & measure absence of noise&grain even with one camera. furthermore, by estimating the average size of human beings and autobusses one can tell that the DOV is indeed more shallow than on s16 or 2/3 chips, so the sensor seems to be rather 35. again, no need to have 3 cameras to confirm such easy findings necessary. i think you are really a little bit excited/emotional. this is supposed to be funny, right? the aggressive tone of certain members make discussion here quite unenjoyable.

done - discreet DI instead of spirit however. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=7...mp;postcount=48 only guessing, could it be because it is a 12MP CMOS camera? Any ou are certainly not crazy, i had the same impression :)

there is a difference between being critical and having no manners. the milk isn´t overexposed. in the orginal thread on DVXUSER.COM you can find CCed images on page 5 who show this, additionally downloading the image and measuring it will show you that even the 8bit datareduced jpeg (not the 12bit orginal raw) still hold the detail in the area.

you are speaking in riddles. do you refer to the studio or outside shots? however, if you would read; mr. jannard wrote when publishing the image : "No dead pixel correction, no noise reduction, no sharpening, no Photoshop tweaking... straight out of REDCINE."

they won´t take orders until ~april 2007 from there on. They hinted that reservation holders will get additional benefits, but nothing very important - "nothing which would force you into ordering while the reservation time". btw, they were at 700-800 orders last week. many of the large rental houses like otto nemenz ordered the maximum of 5, we will only get 2 - if they ship :) the discreet systems, tektronix measurement and class 1 709 monitor here confirm this :)

besides small details that this shot uses natural daylight and the IBC shot were artificial light... no hurry. when they can keep in their schedule (which IMHO would be another small miracle) there will be ~20 prototypes end of the year. btw: the IBC shots, especially the porsche with arri in front of it, are somewhat challenging. you can download them at www.red.com. why do you rule out the obvious? :)

if you rule out dof & mb, what else should it be?

aha. sir, i beg to differ. in comparing this shot to the results of our arri 35 and sony cinealta i can see: - amount of grain/noise. excellent, almost none. - DOF: 35mm. - color reproduction & tonal balance. this is crucial for digital cinematography. good skins, everything in order here. - lattitude. look below the bus, you will see lots of different details in the shadow levels. the shadow of the tire over the bus shadow. experienced eyes would conclude some things... - lenses. the absence of lumatic and chromatic aberrations tell me that we have some good glass in front of frankenred. - much other things. ccould it be that you have a negative bias? Hm, no, but then i don´t have so many aggressions. do you often have "a small lump of vomit move up your windpipe "? i suppose that hostile comments as this one are one of the main reasons for many filmmakers of not frequenting this board often anymore .

the common filmmaker uses the term motionblur to describe the softened look which moving objects have when not being static while being shot.

for cinematic production and film transfer i would strongly recommend to use the sony, if its rather sport/action and HD 720 broadcast the panasonic might be a good choice. why? for cinematic release, one shouldn´t go below 1080p. All digital a- and b-budgets i am aware (zodiac, superman, star wars, miami vice, click, collateral, sky captain, sin city, apocalypto etc) are 1080p. and the sony offers this much higher resolution. 1920*1080 is 2MP, 1280*720 is 1MP. cinematic is 24/25p,and the 1280*720 at 50/60p is simply half the resolution for film out compared to 1920*1080p. you can go full 1920*1080p (via HD-SDI) or still 1440*1080 (via internal tape). this is enough for actual 2K and/or 35mm print. the panasonic doesn´t have 1920*1080 sensors, so you get less spatial resoultion, and that shows on a large theater screen. On the other hand, the lesser sensorresolution of the panasonic isn´t a problem if you shoot @50, as the 750 will give you 1920*540i and the panasonic 1280*720p, which is the same total resolution. advantages panasonic: its cheaper, better price/performance, nice workflow with DVCPRO HD laptop editing. advantage sony (for me a huge one) : colorviewfinder, double resolution. btw: for cinematic release, if you go sony 750- i would strongly recommend the EU 750, not the US 750. the EU 750 has 25p and we use it since years for cinematic production. the US 750 has, last time i checked, only 30p, and that is quite a bit more complicated for the folks in postproduction to bring to the silverscreen. and finally-don´t let yourself be talked into the old 900 for a higher price. the 750,900R & 900 have the identical optical system, and the new 900 and 750 have many creative (slowshutter, timelapse...), ergonomic (leightweight, wireless audio, less energy hungry...) and financial (you need less external devices, no converters etc...) advantages. and be sure to get the colorviewfinder if you go 750 or 900R.