jan von krogh

"Soon, I'm not going to be answering questions about film because I won't know. It will be too small for me to get involved."

Antonio Perez

CEO

Kodak

Kodak is, since years, heading towards to digital and away from film.

Financial Times:

http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?ne...520061604394761

Hi Jan,

 

As somebody once said on CML 'If you know how to light it does not matter what you shoot with, If you don't know how to light it does not matter what you shoot with.

Yeah.

Many clips posted on REDUSER prove the point.

 

Best,

 

Stephen

I suppose you dont refer, as example, to the Mr. Mullens posts on reduser however. There are plenty of awesome, plenty of mediocre and plenty of bad clips. From Top-budget commercials & full features to skeleton-crew low-budget shorts.

However these digital cameras (well only one really, the Red) are not exactly replacing 35mm cameras.

They are doing exactly that - and also the prices for 35mm lenses have reached an all-time high.

These cameras are bought by people who cannot afford to shoot on 35mm film. I don't see any rental houses chucking out their Arricams, or even BLs and Moviecams for Reds...

You are wrong.

Doug Liman and many other A-Budget producers, Dops and directors might disagree on that.

http://red.cachefly.net/video/doug_liman.m4v

Also, iirc, you bought together with steven w. a red - can´t you afford to shoot on film?

Furthermore, red cameras are, right now, typically more expensive to rent than a solid 35mm mechanical camera setup - ludwig in munich is running his 10 @ 650?, cinegate is running its at 550-650? etc.

The exact same discussions can be found in most still photography internet forum, ca. ~2000-2004, before nikon, hasselblad etc completed their transition from mechanical design to sensor.

In the moving images 35mm PL market,

digital cameras were mostly a theory in 2005,

the talk of the industry in 2006,

begun selling more than the 35mm mechanical cameras, but were tough to get, in 2007

and now, in 2008, sales as well as delivery of digital 35mm systems surpass elder mechanical design somewhere 20 to 50:1, depending whose figures.

Mechanical camera design and film negative wont disappear, as they didnt in the still photographic world - its a translation period.

I suppose the market distribution with digital 35mm taking >90% of the new cameras wont change anymore, however.

Which of the technology is the better one is a pretty much pointless discussion. That depends on the job, both methods have advantages and disadvantages.

If one cant shoot outstanding images with a 435 / penelope or a red / origin, then the camera is certainly one of the last problems to look into.

Hi,

 

This forum will become the safe haven for discussions about Red!

 

Stephen

I suppose this prediction is rather wishful thinking.

Stephen and myself co-own a Red One. We are very happy with it.

well then, welcome to the club.

everyone knows that the whloe project is fraud

*irony off*

I dunno, I've seen plenty of pieces of "professional" kit that are hopelessly poorly done...

 

Phil

... and cheap gear which outlasted "pro" equipment, i suppose.

(in the sound dept, they still have an atari st homecomputer as additional midi clock - it must be from the 80ties, and outlasted several rounds of equipment from alesis, protools, yamaha etc. and that the alesis)

interesting!

what format do you record in this case? raw-file format (like the D20 can do with the fraunhofer disk recorder)?

No, RAW data isn´t available at Sony, sadly. RAW is available at Viper, Red, S:I and Arri, with their corresponding propietary formats.

If you come from from 750/900R : YUV422, 10bit, from the others RGB444, 10bit.

using aja (xena & koona) and blackmagic design (decklink) and a fast scsi (or sata) discarray, they are meanwhile pretty small and light.

ours is 19´2he, but there are some who already have 19´1he.

shameless selfpromotion: on the lower left, there it is.

http://redrental.de/recording.htm

and is the difference really so big between uncompressed files and, let´s say, HQ-mode when using the SRW-1 considering the post pro?

I would say: No.

It makes sense for complicated green/bluescreen and tracking and totally complicated gradings - and if someone is a total qualitymaniac.

And if one has the choice, why go for the lesser format. However visually, its almost impossible to seperate them.

One -can- force HDCAM SR to crap out (with pxiel by pixel pattern), but i would say that is rather hypothetical/science.

However, if you come from HDCAM, not HDCAM SR, then its worth shooting to disc, especially in studio situation when it isn´t a problem to work tethered.

in general, you can hook up any camera to the SRW-1 recorder that has an HD-SDI output (or even better, a dual-link HD-SDI). not only sony...

 

greets,

 

timo klages

correct.

we use, since 2002, uncompressed discrecorders (which are even better than hdcam sr) when we want to shoot with hdcam cameras for ultracomplex postpro.

(keying of semitransparent objects in front of their shadows, 3d motion tracking etc).

cinematographer is independent of the media he records to.

The same applies to photographer.

Or designer.

musician.

etc.

cool, cheap, creative, chaotic.

i like it.

however adding some foam/airbags around it would be -highly- recommended.

anyhow, dangerous isn´t a privilege of cheap tricks, i saw a motion control pull a fully equipped nle (with monitors) once.

the nle was tethered... and these bnc cables for sure were robust.

so, what do we think of STEREO? *shiver*

And just a hint: your otherwise witty and biting ripostes tend to somewhat lose their sting if you can't spell

#1

Yes, I know there are a couple of spelling errors in there, but by the time I noticed them, the edit timeout thing stopped me from correcting them!

#2

brightonlogic at its best.

this thread could go back its topic then, after carl now made his important and somewhat helpful remarks, i suppose.

Thanks Jan-

 

I saw this a few times at NAB- amazing!!! The trailer looks awesome on my machine here.

 

Thanks for that link.

you are welcome.

i however, am unhappy with the decision to publish a prores version alone.

2 D.I. suites, 5 nle, pcs with osx, linux and windows and even the apple powerbook can´t play that file back.

Even apple doesn´t use prores for their trailers. Hopefully they will do another encode in H264, VC1 or some compatible codec.

They'll all change their tune eventually. Some of us just saw the light a little sooner. :-)

I am happy when many people get it late. For us as a smaller company, its paramount to plan precisely, and therefore,

I just love to see the competition here in Germany buying F23s and 2/3 lenses.

Was the same with the Hdcam cameras. When bought early, you earned them back before the rest of the competition decided to go for the risk.

However, this model only works well if you don´t intend to grow massively (as we do).

But back to your topic - yes, i agree. I guess within 5-10 years 35mm will be mainly shot with sensors instead of film.

Hi Häakon,

 

I guess he will sell it to Jan!

 

Stephen

Depending on the price and nr. - i might be interested in any camera below <400.

However, with ~80 days until delivery of our first 2 cameras,

2 fullfeatures (small budget) D.I. booked until december,

two sony 750 scheduled and shooting,

the ibc week ahead,

i am not to much

in a hurry.

jan

VHS! pah! Snobs!

real men use Plumbicon!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_camera_tube#Plumbicon

You can shoot a lot of film with a second hand 35mm SLR compared to the cost of buying a new DSLR. However, nothing to stop you going either route.

Yeah, 35mm SLR have a good price meanwhile. And generally speaking, buying used equipment is good, if you get consulting from experienced people.

And don´t fall for the "i need the best camera"-trick. Its the indian, not the arrow, who makes the difference.

Except, they're not really answers, they're either pure speculation or just recycled Red Bull.

Carl, facts don´t become speculation or "red bull" only because you dislike them.

- The cameras prototypes are in use since almost half a year.

On real production sets of multimillion dollar productions.

Have been put through dirt, dust, heat, explosion, non-wescam aerial use -the stuff cameras dislike-by Peter Jacksons Crew.

This lead to several design changes (peltier cooling, fan control, lattitude readout, etc.).

- Many design discussion have been made using public discussion. Red rarely was to shy to ask for feedback, and they shared what they wouldn´t or couldn´t do in a very open way.

One of the recent examples for this were the possible framerates.

This also fixed several typical teething problems, and there is much less of "cat in a bag"-syndrome.

- The >2000 reservation holders can cancel their order and get full refund. 120% refund for us early reservation holders even, iirc.

Using basic logic, one might come to the conclusion, that therefore it would be in the manufacturers best interest, to have a rather satisfied clients, and this might even include having QC.

Besides these factors, it should be taken into consideration, that the camera, especially in CF or SSD configuration, has almost no moving parts - which is a good thing imho.

One of the purposes of a public forum like this one is to allow people to ask questions that it might not occur to less informed (or less experienced) people to ask.

Questions that some people would rather were not asked.

No pun intented, but there is a difference between asking question or jumping to conclusions.

If there is a perfectly reasonable explanation that would alleviate people's suspicions about something, the suspect-ee has the same opportunity to make that explanation.

If their answer is vague, misleading or evasive, the original questioner is also free to point this out.

If the suspect-ee refuses to answer, for no sensible reason, well that in itself is saying something.

I fail to see what is vague, evasive or misleading by announcing 31. August as delivery date.

The thing is, all of these postings are available for public perusal. People can read both sides of the discussion, which may then give them ideas for questions they might want to ask themselves, that others would rather were not asked.

That is all that I and most of the so-called "RED-haters" have ever done: Asked the hard questions, and made people aware that there are unanswered hard questions.

I didn´t see any constructive input into the red project from your side, as i didn´t see any from the "red-haters" here.

In fact, most of the red team stopped communication here, for obvious reasons, and mr. jannard made it pretty clear that he didn´t saw input from this subforum, when people claimed otherwise.

The patronizing tone of some of many of the pro-RED posts here is clearly designed to engineer a confrontation in order to have the thread closed.

I can only speculate on the reasons people are so determined that the so-called "RED haters" should be effectively gagged in this manner.

You doubted that red would deliver on time, the same day JJ confirmed the schedule.

The normal reaction in that situation would be: "Hey, sorry i am wrong - congrats red".

Instead you complain that there would be a conspiracy to "gag" you.

If you're determined to become a RED owner, you're going to buy a RED; you're not going to listen to me. But hey, I'm perfectly happy to have somebody else scouting out the unknown territory at their expense.

Or somebody else's expense!

And I rather think that is the answer. Some people might be worried that the people they might have talked into bankrolling their own particular contribution to the RED revolution, might get to hear both sides of the argument....

You are missing the point here.

Orders are refundable.

The first 50 users will provide interesting feedback, and anyone who feels uncomfortable with the outcome can cancel its red.

Hearing both sides of the argument is something different than jumping to wild conclusions or to speculate.

The world isn´t a place only painted in white and black (or red). I have made many critical posts on reduser.net.

Interestingly enough, the one who exposes many qualitative problems in the planned color/FCS2 workflow was made sticky.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2825

I don´t think that it is clever to be a "hater" or "fanboy". I openly admit that i have the highest respect for what the people at red tried and archived.

I am happy that we have a good jump ahead in picture quality, creative possibilities and price. That doesn´t make anyone or the product at red perfect.

But if we, as customers, point out mistakes or possible improvements to a manufacturer, gentlemen-style communication often is more helpful than the "if you can´t stand the steam, get out of the kitchen"-attitude.

http://www.mummydust.com/red/CTL_Trailer.mov.gz

2 GByte.

FCS 2 required for playback.

edit: file is in gzip format.

But it sounds awfully like they're rushing them out the door without proper quality control testing.

Carl,

red has not only field tested the camera (with guys as peter jackson, rodney charters etc), but the cameras are actually used to shoot fullfeature for Steven Soderberg and Timur Bekmambetov since months.

Several issues have been identified in that phase and ironed out. How the series QC is done at Red and if they took months, weeks or days is pure speculation at this moment in time.

The first two types of lenses will be delivered as well, btw. One zoom, one prime.

(Which is what tends to happen when you shoot your mouth off too much about "never missing a deadline" <_< )

Red delayed the delivery by almost 90 days and the schedule is -as before- tentative.

Couldn't we at least see a photo of the first 25 or so cameras?

"We" will probably see photos of thousands or so cameras used worldwide, and, more interesting imho, shots done by the camera.

First shots will be done Friday in Los Angeles by FxPh.

here are plenty of Reduser posters on the low-numbers list; with less than a week to go, thus far not one of them has come on to post something like: "Whoo-Hoo!! RED have just phoned up to ask me for the balance, and where I want the camera sent!" Since RED won't take credit cards for most of the payment, that doesn't give them too much time to get payment organized.

I don´t know how every single buyer will manage it, however several folks are flying over to L.A. to pick the cameras up. Mike Seymour, from fxguide.com, is one of them.

You could contact him on reduser.net or at fxguide.com and ask about details regarding his payment process.

Be assured that in 2007, it isn´t that complicated to transfer $$.$$$ or more from A to B within a day or week.

And what does "Delivery on Aug 31" actually mean? T

It does mean delivery on Aug 31.

So ... on Friday WHERE are they going to be shipped to?

To the reservation holders.

Hello,

this is one of the most discussed topics today.

I am in the digital camp - i would recommend to aim at digital cinema aquisition.

However, i support what the pro-film folks above recommended - film is really good training, and would i not have started with film, i wouldn´t have learned several lesseons.

Its not that digital gives bad habits - but film is more complicated and challenging, and a harder training is good.

I however would recommend a digital slr - training is much quicker with digital, as you dont have to wait for the development, and, especially cheaper, as you don´t have to pay it.

and trial and error is a very good training.

I have the position that film will be a minority of the productions for cinema within 5-10 years.

However, many people will have the exact opposite opinion and also some good reason to support that point of view.

this is a rare événement. This hapenning should be celebrate by all, celebrate for all here.

indeed.

Jim has confirmed the first 25 cameras will ship this month on 31 August, with a further 25 cameras shipping on 8 September.

 

Stephen

The next weekend will be a sci-fi party for 25 people/companies.

Very good news, indeed.