jan von krogh

Hi Jan,

 

Jim has 5 cameras, you have 2 so I think you underestimate the following here.

its up to 3 meanwhile.

i referred to people, not to units of red cameras. anyhow, one of the other red-forum often gets more new posts a day than this redforum in a month.

i might be wrong, but one reason for this might be the sometimes slightly unconstructive, biased, emotional and unprofessional attitude some posters here seem to have when it comes to red.

You may be unaware but Max has been directing for some time now, he won an award for a 35mm anamorphic short he directed. I saw his film at a festival, it kicked ass.

This is why i asked if he plans to shoot (or be ac/clapper) on red.

At least you are still here.

yes, and maybe some more 5 or 10 red reservation holders lurking/reading.

however, as i am writing this, there are 780 users logged in on reduser.net.

sad for cinematography.com imho.

btw: when do you think will you be shooting (or ac) on a red for the first time?

Hi Craig,

 

Not only were we consulted but changes were made due to conversations here, those same conversations were ignored on both Reduser & CML.

That is wrong.

All important improvements and feedbacks were not here, but on the other forums.

The management and developers of red left this forum, together with the majority of buyers/reservation holders.

This thread is a good example why - Trollposts like this one are not locked down, threads with real information (as hires photos of the camera or links to publications covering the camera) are locked.

Hi Jan,

 

Do you think the 2k windowed sensor of the soon to be released Red one will equal the quality of 35mm 2K scans or indeed the HD output of your Sony 750's. Just curious as usual.

 

Stephen

i think it will be much better than 35mm film.

what do you think?

do you see yourself still shooting 35mm photochemical within 3 years?

or will you prefer your (rented) viper and go

TOTALLY DIGITAL?

however.

35mm filmcamera demand is at a minimum, siince even conservative guy as stpehen is shooting mainly digital.

to remind the new reader - steven is the "moderator" here.

however, 1080p might be just enough for the moderators of this particular subforum-

furthermore, they bring evidence any day why red is ---

DoPs as the one running this forum hopefully will continue to use their inferior gear.

That gives us youngster precisely the timeframe of ~q2/20008 to earn back.

Nothing that I'm at liberty to discuss.

did abel miss the oppurtunity?

btw.

i think average rental for a 35 mm cam will slightly be reduced.

we calculate_

$$ with s35 sensor and optics/lens within 2008.

not $$$.

including very agressive mails to producers.

you know, the "you wouldn´t "dare style.

also, we will take clear judgement and position.

especially regarding posts in internet forums.

important as well.

any dop who doesn´t want to work with the gear isn´t acceptable.

1st acs as the vocal minority here (hello max, phil) might get an job offer.

however, they pissed of many people, and therefore - i will link their posts.

maybe someone will discover their talent.

yorick.

ah thats a good tipp, thank you! i will check it out !

You can also try, when using sony hdcam, the ecs/clearscan feature.

its designed to record screens/tubes without flicker, and i am not sure if it goes down to 24 and never tested it, however, its worth a try.

ps

iirc you find that in ->top menu->operation->shutter->ecs (turn on), then toggle shutterspeed to ecs on the front of the camera.

have no cameras to check it out right now, all rented out, but it would be interesting to know if that works.

The RED is a 4K Bayer-filtered single-sensor camera, not a telecine or a recording format.

To be totally overprecise, its a 4.9K Bayer-filtered single-sensor camera, which uses 4.5K of its sensor for recording.

Active Pixels 4520*2540, Full Array 4900*2580 (or something like that) IIRC.

Hi Jan,

Not sure if any DI's have been scanned @ 2K bayer.

Normally 2k RGB often downsampled from 3K RGB. 4K RGB downsampled from 6k has rather more resoloution than 2K downsampled from 3K.

correct.

however, especially in the higher asas, we mainly get more grain resolved (which is helpful) when scanning @4k.

2K processing/d.i./vfx/animation is the huge mayority of all production anyhow.

The bottleneck in todays 35mm distribution system is the cinema (and the quality of the distribution copies as well), as all the precious resolution carefully protected so far there usually drops below 2k.

But it never will be my camera of choice, for a phrase you yourself have put: texture

 

I love the texture of film. I love the grain, the origanic method of how the salt crystals merge and weave, forming a complex matrix. Even at the atomic level, it's absolutely beautiful. While digital might be "technically" correct, I'm not here for correctness, I'm here for artistry.

As we often have to match 35mm/16mm/1080p/hdcam together, we

- add scanned 35mm grain to match digital material to film

or

- remove grain from 35mm to match digital,

when done correctly, both aquisition methods blend very well.

However, with film and sensor based shooting it can be pretty tough to get rid of the inherit artifacts: grain on high asa film, noise produced by electronic gain.

So, the texture, or grain, or noise - is a distortion of the image which i can be easily added if called for -after- the images have been shot, but can be highly problematic if shot -in- the image.

So i am all for shooting noise/grainfree images - and then add this layer of texture later on, when it is indeed an artistic choice, not a technical limitation.

We're working to improve this sort of thing. We know about these issues and have corrections in place for them. Trust me that the camera can perform significantly better than what you experienced.

Hi Mitch,

the Wachowski Bros are shooting Speed Racer around the corner in Berlin-Babelsberg with Sonys F23 HDCAM SR - i have been told that they are also using the Phantom 65s side by side, do you know anything of this?

I'm not an expert on HD but I do know that HDV is not quite to par with RED from the clips I saw. Has there been any tests with the RED telecining Super-8 or 16mm? It would be an interesting experiment.

That indeed would be an interesting experiment, with emphasis on experiment - as the optical path and many other aspects of the camera aren´t exactly designed for telecine purposes.

For 8mm and 16mm, 4K scanning/telecine is overkill. The resolution is -much- lower.

FWIW, most 35mm films we have seen in the recent years have been in 2K D.I and or recording, not 4k. So 4K is rather in the 35mm upperclass.

Other filmmakers, who already used RED cameras, have made bold comments:

If you shoot at 4K, but want a ?film look?, then you finish at 2K and add some grain. It?s easy. It looks like film. However, if you finish and screen at 4K. the result is like shooting in 65mm, like the old epics used to do.

Peter Jackson.

However, be aware that the bottleneck is in any case the filmout/copy/projection.

Your average 35mm film projecting cinema doesn´t even resolve 2K when screening a typical distribution copy.

http://www.cst.fr/IMG/pdf/35mm_resolution_english.pdf

thanks guys.

 

I told the client that i will do it under the condition that i get the camera a few days in advance so i can get familier with the camera.

 

I did speak to one cameraman that does allot of drama productions on HD, he told me that it's very hard to see if your focussed in the viewfinder because it can't handle HD.

is this true and is there a way to work arround this problem?

 

thnx,

Only the cheaper b/w viewfinder doesn´t show full HD. If you get the HD VFC 30 color viewfinder, you can use the magnify button at its rear to get pixel by pixel focus.

Most crews who rent our 750s use the viewfinder for backfocus.

Also a 750 can be equipped with several extras.

slowshutter - allows for longer exposure times, shooting in extremly dark conditions without noise and blurred motion if necessary.

intervall / slowshutter / memory cache - allows timelapses etc

on board downconverter - use sd sdi/fbas monitoring

wireless audio - as the name says

there are more accessories (gps/metadata, paint remote etc) which will make sense once you get used to the camera.

some tips:

get yourself an memory stick in order to be able to store / load your preset.

insist on getting a lens file for maximal quality / control over the lens.

have fun.

Red marketing ;)

But basically any overcranking will require the expensive Raw Port/External Raid option...

Mr Jacoby,

if you post wrong information, as the one regarding overcranking above, in a public forum, i think it makes sense to correct you.

You may call that whatever you want, but as long posters here write false things, as there would be no 1080 out, or you would need the raw port for overcranking, i will correct these false facts.

Wow great...

If I shoot 4K, I would want all the framerates to be 4K.

In that case you have to go with phantom or a red, using the rawport for 60fps 4k.

We probably won´t order the raw-port in the batch of the first red cameras.

However, what about Arri D20? Panavision Genesis? GV Viper? Sony F23/950/900/750?

They all don´t do 4k at all. No longer good enough?

If any overcranking results in merely a 2K image then that is not going to match too well is it?

The same camera electronics with the same sensor and the same pipeline should shoot images of pretty similar characteristics.

However, that remains to be seen and tested.

Furthermore - Don´t take it as granted, that all masters will be done in 4k , even when the red camera records the originals in 4k.

We for sure have planned several 4k->2k.

I am curious if Soderbergh and Bekmambetov will upgrade their REDs to overcranking while shooting Guerillia and Wanted.

Especially if that is only 2K windowed (as opposed to downrezzed from 4K), so my 35mm lenses will suddenly not be wide enough and I might have to get in additional lenses designed specifically for Super 16mm.

For 0.x-60fps one uses RED in S35mm mode. From 60-100fps, its S16mm.

Good business for our Zeiss S16 1.2/1.3 primes, btw., if one doesn´t have 35mm lenses wide enough and wants to go 60-100fps handheld/steady.

Jan,

 

What is your day job... camera department, producer....

As listed in my profile:

mainly production, and outside of our own production, we rent out.

What about 25fps? And 30fps? Are they only available on the Raw Port?

For your information, Mr. Jacoby, when we ordered the camera, -all- 4k was only to the raw port. All overcranking as well.

4k to Compact Flash was announced by RED much later, IBC2006, iirc.

We, and all of the first 1000 buyers, had to plan 4K via rawport originally.

But basically any overcranking will require the expensive Raw Port/External Raid option...

You are wrong.

2K @ 1-100 fps to Compact Flash or RED Drive is in the camera.

Up from 60fps in the announced features when we ordered.

That's a serious drawback for the Pal world.

Yes, 4K 25fps to compact Flash or RED Drive in the body would be very helpful for non-cinema-projects.

RED isn´t sure if they will deliver this in their first camera.

However, Mr. Jannard stated:

- "We will try to make 4K REDCODE RAW @ 25 fps to CF and RED Drive live as soon as possible."

Hi Jan,

 

I think thats probably correct, that delay could be 'interesting' when operating.

 

Stephen

any delay on hd-sdi out is pure speculation on my part.

I wouldn´t be surprised, however, as many digital cinematography cameras show this behaviour.

some sdti basing systems even have 3 frames delay.

also, more and more 1080p -monitors-, especially lcd, also delay the image.

we often shoot "cinerama-style" with several cameras, just recently a ballet with 5760*1080.

in such scenarios, and any live -environment, its important to know the inherit delays of the specific camera in use.

Carl Brighton is wrong.

In the current design, 1080 4:4:4 and 1080 4:2:2 are available via HD-SDI. 720 via HDMI.

Sorry, I'm still none the wiser. Does that mean you can take live SDI or HDMI from the camera already downsampled to 1080 and feed that either into an existing recording/editing setup, or go straight to air as 1080 HD?

this diagram shows the current interconnections.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1110

And if it is available "live", are there any specs available on what the processing delay is? It might be in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

Its live. However fully possible that it has one or two frames delay im my humble opinion.

Anyone care to begin to define how 4k digital will compare in "look"

"If you shoot at 4K, but want a ?film look?, then you finish at 2K and add some grain. It?s easy. It looks like film. However, if you finish and screen at 4K. the result is like shooting in 65mm, like the old epics used to do. It?s pretty exciting, and will have a major impact on indie filming ? but we could see no reason why you couldn?t use these cameras for any type of movie. I?m seriously considering using RED for The Lovely Bones."

peter jackson.

Hi Keith,

 

Pleased to see there are still people here with a sense of humor.

 

Stephen

on the brighter side, steven, when do you think you will be renting out red cameras for the first time?

or will you buy one?

Actually that is Max "Jan van Krogh bores me to death" Jacoby.

Mr. Jacoby, coming from you, this is a compliment.

btw, as you obviously have a hard time reading: its "von" not "van".

"We're shooting RED side by side film. We scanned the film 4k and took both into the Baselight, compared them and then did a filmout of both. When we screened side by side, we literally could not tell the difference. In fact, most people picked the RED footage as film because of a greater dynamic range in the highlights than in the 5218. It's not enough to say it is the best digital image out there. The fact is, finally, we can intercut digital with film. It looked remarkably better than the filmed images. I thought I would never be able to say that"

Jon Farhat, VFX Supervisor, "Wanted".

so. will this thread be locked by the mod now? its a positive opinion...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0267331/

Does anybody know a 35 mm blow up experience from Red?

rodrigo

[/quote

 

yes- steven soderberh and peter jachson as some examples.

they were totally entousisasic.

 

]

Hi John,

 

I agree, however a Genesis has less DOF than 35mm film using the same lens & stop, don't yet know about Red.

 

Stephen

have you ever shot with genesis or is this just heresay of yours, stephen.

regarding the red camera, if you are interested: we will have a 3 camera setup in nov/dec according to the manufacturer.

would you like, as the moderator of this subforum, to be invited?

or should we better drop you of the list?

I will not be posting anything further on this forum.

when you quit, there will be only 3 vocal & biased people remaining, down from over three dozens.

max "ballhaus bores me to death" jacoby, Keith and this other guy, i dont remember his name.

opinion not fact lead people, as the moderator "steven williams" of this forum will be next.

or they will be won over by red key personel.

i certainly won´t miss your expertise.