jan von krogh

Considering all the agonizing that people go through over workflows, am I the only person who has a fair amount of gratitude to Soderbergh for laying it all out, physically on his film no less?

no, i also think that this is a pretty good idea.

however, with dci using xyz colorspace our industry is finally moving towards a -clear- definition of what the original really has to look like.

Over Heating is a big Issue...in many cameras

I shot in Arizona with two F900 which would shut down every 10 minutes because of hit. The ac had to use dry ice and a fan to cool them down, sound went down as well. We were not under sun all the time. A lot of times int he shade and they would shut down. I dotn know the red cameras but F900's after years in the filed shut down by oitself when overheated....

the old 900 can be quite problematic in the sun - the new 750/790 and 900r however are much better for high temperatures, we shot in dubai, the syrian desert without any problems on them.

ps:got similar problems with other cameras where they wouldnt shutdown but do weird things...but in those cases looked like mulfunctioning.

yeah, the panavision genesis had to be cooled down with ice while shooting apocalypto quite often.

and what happens to 35mm negatives when stored in very hot environments is well known as well.

however, as red stated, the peltier element missing in the prototypes which are in the serial production models are the solution to shooting in very hot situations.

remember, soderbergh had a total downtime of 10 minutes with the prototypes, not more.

furthermore, the red prototypes deactivates its fans while shooting, it will additionally become an option to let them activated for shooting in >50 degrees celsius situations.

p.s. partner ordered another red today, so now we have 3 units coming.

Look, perhaps I have the advantage over most of you that I can look at any camera, whether film, video, digital still or even the RED, or any VCR or any TV set or any computer, and I can visualize exactly what is going on in it. I know what is supposed to happen, and I also visualize what happens when things are not done properly.

Holy Son of McGyver and Superman.

So do you visualise, when looking at a digital camera, if there is a CCD, Foveon, CMOS or CMOSaps in it, if its built out of double-layered Perovskite manganese oxide (La2-2xSr1+2xMn2O7 (LSMO327), iirc), the optical conductivity, its in-plane anisotropy, the TMI (metal-toinsulator) and/or AMF (antiferromagnetic transition) and all that stuff? Wow. Awesome.

Not so much now, but in the past I did a lot of consulting work, just telling people how to make their products work.

Always for free on internet forums?

You need to start with sometimes dozens of thermocouples all attached to the devise like a patient under intensive care. You attach all these to a data logger, spend weeks doing all sorts of things to make the device heat up and cool down while you measure and record everything. Then you work up strategies to improve the heat management, ...

Then you rebuild the prototype and start again, until you get reliable results, within tolerance.

I would recommend to explain this unique genuine approach totally unheard of to the engineers at the multi-billion cmos-fabs.

And to Boeing and Airbus, they certainly can´t wait to start building multiple prototypes instead of doing it cad/cam/fluid-simulation based as the rest of the world does.

Have a look at http://www.crtech.com/products.html. These are the entrylevel tools in use today.

To start with Soderbergh is not doing anything all that radical technology wise. plenty of feature films have already been shot with digital cameras and nobody has yet died as a result. So using a digital camera is not that awesome a risk. But using one that has not been tested properly FOR THINGS THAT CAN BE TESTED, is just plain silly.

Maybe you should give that silly Soderbergh a call and offer your consulting services!

This is not somebody's short film flung together over a few days with a few vintage airplanes, this is a serious production that involves a lot of people's time and money.

Indeed, and not the only one being shot with red prototypes at the moment.

I've never thought the pictures from the RED were all that special, but I really thought they were more organized than this.

Than to fieldtest their prototypes in the field? And, i wonder, where have you seen the RED images in 4k projection - on your computer monitor?

This is the sort of problem you'd normally find halfway through development.

question: have you ever developed a S35 digital 4K camera or how comes that you suggest you have experience in camera r&d?

fact: Soderbergh is shooting on prototypes. serial models have peltier cooling.

furthermore - red has 2.000 orders and everyone can get his deposits back anytime. i don´t see cancelations anywhere, i do however see several profitable offers for early reservation red units.

We are not going to see any pictures from the set "for obvious reasons" but what amazes me is that they are/were having big problems with keeping the camera (particularly the CMOS chip cool).

Here you can see pictures from the set.

http://photos1.blogger.com/photoInclude/he...e-guevara04.jpg

Red won´t post pictures from Soderberghs set for obvious reasons. These reasons are called copyright iirc.

personal sidenote:

I liked Benicio Del Toros performances in Snatch, Sin City and Fear and loathing in Las Vegas. I am really looking forward to see "Guerillia" and "The Argentine", no matter if they would be shot in 35, 65mm, 1080p, 2k or 4k.

i have been told from several arri employees that the d20 isn´t intended to be a camera which will be ever produced on an industrial scale - if at all.

I didn't mind Jannard posting his own tests here, even though it was just a repeat of his posts elsewhere.

Hello David,

i posted links to the shots of the red camera in its delivery packages as well as a link to a well know publication from new zealand, which decided to put peter jackson and his tests with red prototypes on its frontpage.

the thread was locked down within short time before anyone could comment.

i started this thread in order to understand if we do have a policy and guidelines or personal judgement as base on these forums.

i would like to add that i am amused.

accusing one of the owners of hdcam cameras and gear posting on this board of advertising red is, in itself, an obvious oxymoron.

I think the camera is still a year a way...

i suppose you don´t realize the cameras are shooting the moment we speak.

2 times so far delayed delivery mass-production schedule has slipped from may to august.

I'm sorry mate, but the fact that its not shipping yet puts a rather large dent in its claim to be the market leader anywhere.

agreed.

Sure they may have racked up the most pre-orders the fastest... but that is not how you measure business success.

i suppose that 2000+ 35mm cameras will have a lasting influence on several industries.

if you think that red won´t deliver 2000 bodies within the next 12 months, ok. they plan for >4000.

and i can fully reassure you, that most business people do measure business success basing on market share.

with 2000 units on preorder, how much market shae would that be in the 35mm segment. 80%?

Once they start shipping, then they'll truely be market leaders, in their own unique niche.

so, you would recommend to any friend to buy an 235 or 435, penelope or studio as investment -right now-?

i wouldn´t.

reds niche is panavisions, aatons and arris market.

much less sonys, ikegamis or panasonics.

I continue to watch the D-Cinema developments with much interest...

recommendable.

No Spielberg definitely makes movies. I have spent many enjoyable hours watching Mr Spielberg's movies. All I have seen of the Jannard's product is the equivalent of a printed poster and a teaser in the cinema

obvious.

you certainly didn´t see peter jacksons ctl or the early tests of red.

however you do have an opinion about the camera you missed to see.

suprising, if i may so, from a professional point of view.

If you don't have all this you are at the mercy of how enthusiastic your staff are, and many projects sink with no trace once they lose interest. Good software is not written by chain-smoking caffeine addicts, regardless of the stereotypes :lol:

if i remember my 6 years with discreet logic correctly, we had some coders which were on some more exciting stuff while coding flame, combustion and inferno than caffeine.

however, i suppose that your pleas are, as your experience with the red camera: heresay and speculation.

Hi Jan,

When cameras start being delivered to the Reservation holders, tests will be carried out. If those tests provide good results then Red could be very interesting tool available.

my humble opinion after some years of experience with arri, panavision as well as sony & panasonic indicates that red will mean to cameras, what avid meant to steenbeck or moviola, cubase or protools meant to tascam or alesis etc.

if your opinion is a different one, i respect that. however i suppose we will revisit these threads and quote them in the foreseeable future.

Today I don't have that choice, I have to make do with what is available to shoot today, that includes 35mm film, Viper & F23.

ah, you are shooting on the f23, interesting.

why is that if i might ask?

isn´t the viper superior? or is it inferior?

or the genesis or the d20?

isn´t 35 or 65mm the superior aquisition media for all purposes?

so, bottomline:

shots not authorized by the manufacturer and in discussion are ok, shots by the manufacturer not ok.

titlepages of wellknow magazines not ok.

i can´t help myself, but i think these paradigms are not too unbiased.

I'm sorry all the guy is is trying to make a camera... I'm tired of these comments... maybe its statements like this that turn people off... about the maker of this camera... sorry he's not the Creator...

i agree. he is a bussinesman.

but besides the camera, they are

- making cinelenses

- hd colorviewfinders

- storage systems

and last but not least...

fileformats and postproduction software.

a, in my humble opinion, most valuable addition to the industrial players we have had so far.

and, some people might disagree on this, they became marketleader for s35 cameras within 24 months.

and they have 4k display, projectors and a minicam announced.

How difficult, or more importantly, will it be possible to change out the lens mounts on the RED camera body?

on the camera: complicated. adapters easy.

Also, I have searched and I've heard it mentioned, will the RED system mount still camera lens'?

yes. it will mount canon & nikon still lenses.

Also, my ARRI 2C uses the bayonet lens mount. Would I be able to use these lens on the RED with the PL adapter?

yes. thats one of the nice things about the camera.

i fail to understand why posting photos is now considered advertisement.

if so, please educate me about the guidelines - i personally was waiting eagerly for real shots of the camera this particular forum is all about.

Hi Jan,

 

To keep control of the project. He has seen to many 'unhappy partnerships' before.

 

Stephen

my respect then.

however, overcoming bad experiences is a crucial lesson in life.

and -lets be clear about that- he proposed the idea first.

however, he let the marketspace open to red.

I don't think Arri is losing sleep over the Red, at least they didn't give the impression when I brought up the issue with some of their people I met with today.

depends who you are talking to.

arri as a company - certainly not.

arrilaser will benefit quite a bit from red.

arri camera however...

p.s.

the last time i met arri camera folks, they explained me, why red wasn´t possible. that was in may.

Hi Jan,

Without doubt.

Stephen

there will be interesting PR - then, and if.

ps. you closed the photothread - because "it could be advertisement".

i would like to remind you, that on this particular board, many members asked to see the actual product, instead of 3d-cgi.

Let's be clear: RED is not a market leader in anything until they actually deliver product. A reservation list is one thing; shipped product is another.

boeing and airbus might disagree.

hard facts: red has s35 order marketleader from scratch.

if they can´t delvier - different song.

if they do deliver...

Will the guy who is #1500 on the list still want it by the time his unit comes up? We shall see.

as of yet, you´ll get some nice offers for delivery position 1500.

we will see. probably (hopefully, i have 2 orders) this year.

with over 2000 units on order, red did manage to become the S35mm marketleader in sales from scratch.

if they continue this, there is another question at hands - what are the consequences for the other manufacturers in that market space.

I am surprised, that many people see red mostly as competition for sony and panasonic.

The japanese behemonts aren´t affected so much - main sales of their products go to the broadcasters, and red aims much more at feature/doc/commercial etc.

So i am rather curious about the impact on aaton, arri and panavison and how they will react. will panavision rent out "panavized" reds? many interesting questions come to mind.

As red is preparing for shipping, they now publish photos of different configurations.

I really prefer these real shots over the 3D-cgi renderings.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1184714518.jpg

full package

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1184711652.jpg

"premium production package"

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1184708585.jpg

"production package"

and red made its first title page, onfilm NZ, with a nice angenieux zoom.

http://www.onfilm.co.nz/July07BIG.jpg

Hi,

 

Jeff K did not want any investors for his project. He was one of the first people to realise Red was real as he had received Emails from Jim, so knew who was behind the project.

 

Stephen

Bizarre - why would he want to finance the whole project himself?

mukesh, you would need to give us more information about the type of camera you will be using...

Beyond that there's nothing you absolutely couldn't have come across in SD DV. Other correspondents are correct to warn you that HD cameras may have more complex menu options, but you aren't duty bound to get involved with all that unless you have a reason to.

Carefull Phil, all depends on the camera he will be using...

- arri/gv raw modes...

- sony different color spaces....709 vs. rgb etc

- panasonic overcranking in varicam

etc

Things that might be quite different vary quite a bit, depending on what DV-cameras you have been using so far and what HD-cameras youwill be using.

- external optics require you to check backfocus

- focus itself is much more critical, depending on the shoot at hand you will have to measure or require an excellent viewfinder, which is often not available (sony hdvfc, accuscene EVF or arri d20 optical)

- most top-class hd-cameras (sony, arri, panasonic, panavision, thomson, s:i) offer several pretty creative functions inside of the camera. Dependent of the producer/director, they might expected you know how to handle them.

but without more precise information with which cameras you worked so far, and which you will be using in the future, it is pretty hard to give more than general advice.

What annoys me is that the rest of the world has its prints go through an IP/IN stage.

yes - and it seems this is becoming common practice.

But then again, it's only Ocean's 13.

I am always a bit surprised by the maximum self-esteem you express with such comments as the one above or "ballhaus bores me to death".

I try always to stay modest and have a little dignity, even if i dislike a movie. haven´t seen ocean 13 however.