jan von krogh

no, but sounds interesting. will have a look. ups, you can' t tell hdcam from hdv? or is it the "handheld"-style they move the 900 which you are referring to? doable, the first episodes were 35mm. was a double-episode pilot. even if i personally prefer classic, "expensive" looks for our productions: for me it was the opposite, i always give unconventional looks more credit. nothing against digital "grand spectacles" a la superman etc, but i am personally more interested in shooting styles which are untraditional, i think you should have a look at it in 4k, projected. your opinion might be -slighty- altered then. if you don't try to make digital cinema look like photochemical, it will, especially if projected digital, have a different look than 35mm. the absence of grain from the stock & flicker from the projector are unfamilar in the beginning. if you shoot for matching & filmout however, with a good dp & colorist its easy going to match them. we have done several mixed 35mm & hdcam productions, and often even the director was confused if we were on the 35mm roll or the hdcam footage - a seasoned dop and seasoned colorist will most probably still be able to tell the difference, the audience however doesn't. film has many years of life in it. for me the benchmark is - when will be more cinema shot digitally than on film. in the pre-red era i thought 10-20 years from here, now it can easily happen under ten years, but thats all speculation. however film won't get cheaper i am afraid.

I did my first 35mm shooting in 89, first theatrical 35mm in 92. having to -have- grain is a bad thing. i would like to have asa>500 with asa 50 grain as stock option, don't you? sometimes i like grain, sometimes i hate it, and certainly prefer to add it in post.

When we decided to look at the new BSG, we basicly expected yet another make-up-galore with glorious pilots, bigger-than-life-heroes, 45 min episodes with a plot wort 15min and maybe some 1-2 emotional subplots per episode. also we expected to have the typical clean, sterile or plastic-noir sci-fi sets. basicly yet another series in the prison of todays sci-fi, stargate, andromeda, enterprise, sg:atlantis etc. when we then saw what they done we were -really- impressed, and i am rarely really impressed by tv-series. no reset button-plot engine (tough for the writers), excellent references to politic, moralistic and psychic dilemmas, a villain which maybe even is a superior being and is uncertain in his actions, broken charakters, complex and long storylines which span 3,4,5,6 episodes or ever seasons, hard-to-follow side&subplots, killing important roles, not-so-childish conflicts as in "you took my spacecraft!" but rather hidden, ongoing conflicts below the surface with deep feelings of sorrow which then go volcano and leaving the involved realizing their failure in overcoming the real reasons of the differences... ... basicly they touched every taboo and YOU-SHALL-NOT for TV-series. its an very adult show, which again is daring, as tv-sci-fi sudiences can be pretty young those days. i would have hard times selling such to a network, and we have made quite some underground and uncommon shows & features over the years. to the style of shooting. first, i was disturbed. (also i didn't understand how the camera operator could throw around >40 lbs all day long). then i begun to like it. we had some talks with directors and basicly came to the conclusion, that with a standard shooting style, static & gliding as seen in most series, the roughness, dangerous and "everything-can-change-any-second" mood of BSG wouldn't be so intense. (btw some of the directors who we talked to were inspired and also are asking for that style now). meanwhile i think it was an experimental-film element which turned out to highly add as well to aestethics as well as the dramaturgy of the show. from a pure position of craftmansship btw, its much harder to archieve this look than to shoot with a prime from a dolly or crane. if you examine the shots you will notice that often they travel through 6,7,8 areas of interested, covering with ease 10-200 mm, often are doing dirty things (like having decalibrated backfoucs in order to refocus after changing focal lenght) and are often using extremly planned shots (CU eye - zoom back DT table - hand comes - goes out of focus - crashzoom to CU face etc). these shots look "effortless", sloppy, but believe me, they must be pretty hard to archieve. to the colorcorrection. from a producer pov - awesome. that steve mcnutt as dop takes out a whole process (hes doing grade on the set while shooting, well preplanned amd mostly only by using the sony hdcam camera) reduces tools, effort, time, budget, necessary communication and crew. also it brings creative decision and communication to one person, which makes planning much easier. from a colorist pov - honestly said, given that i correctly understood what he was aiming for, i have seen several shots where i was thinking to myself, hmmm, i could have made that even better (no pun intended). i do notice the absence of travelling vignettes, overlaying colors etc - basicly i see filters where i am used to see postproduction/di. however, it still surpasses most of the CC and grades i am used to see and, sorry to say so, he is really bullish, not to say "he has balls in his cc". tough, over/underexposed, tinted... may things i usually wouldn' t dare are standard in his arsenal. from a filmscience pov - to boldly go where no one has gone before :) they are pushing boundaries and limits. i like that.

"...the Peabody Awards are generally regarded as the most prestigious awards honoring distinction and achievement within the fields of broadcast journalism, documentary making, educational programming, children's programming, and entertainment..." they surely seem to have a different taste as BG won the peabody. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0601822/ producer i suppose after ~250 episodes of star trek as prod/writer etc he made a typical beginners mistake. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002323/ dop

its done all the time - but when its not looking fake, then you don´t see it. what kind of "messy" are you looking for? strong grain? scratches? hairs? dirt? flicker? (choose projector/m-cross/camera originated) dust? low resolution? vertical/horizontal jumps? (with perfjump on one/two axis?) vertical/horizontal smears? vertical/horizontal jitter? fading (monochrome/specific layer)? aging & storage artefacts? "ancient" framerates (18 fps etc)? projector burns? telecine artefacts? over/underexposed? ... list goes on with lab mistakes, ntsc/pal transmission problems, video issues as v/hold... .. the list above is pretty easy to handle meanwhile, however it takes -lots- of computing power, decent softwareplugins, a good >500GB library of 1080p/2k scanned originals of those problems, and first of all, a understanding how & why these problems originate in real world, and time.

Clean = better. making clean images messy = no problem at all. making messy images clean = hard to undoable.

true - but if we compare cameras, we don´t compare distribution. to put it extreme : i won´t say "35mm makes no sense as youtoube.com has low resolution"....

agreed - Arrilaser and Arriscan are fine examples of what Arri can do in the digital marketspace. You can buy the products, they are used all the time and are among the best of their particular class. And that is exactly the position a Arri digital s35 camera should have in the market as well in my opinion - and it doesn´t yet. Hey, even an Arri built, 416 sized 2K camera at a competetive price point would be a great addition to our set of tools. The D20 might be an option for companys who rent - but for companys who do buy (as mine) - Arri has no offer. my last talks with D20 people from Arri indicated, sadly enough, otherwise. Sorry, i don´t want to compare specs once more- but the resolution of the sensor of the Arri D20 is -half- the RED resolution etc. So if "quality is primordial" (what it sadly isn´t as we know we would be shooting 65mm then all the time), and the D20 would be at 15 stops, 16bit raw 8k @ 120 fps, then i would agree. But it isn´t . two points here, max. #1 that would reduce arri to a niche player in the starting market - right now they are by far the market leader. #2 optical vs. electronic viewfinder isn´t about the last bit of quality. please lets not go there additional. both, OVF and EVF have advantages and disadvantages. i disagree. the announced red lenses are good, but our zeiss 1.2 set is faster, our angenieux zooms cover much more and have a better T... here red aims at good enough, not better, but cheaper. its different with the camera body where they clearly aim at having "better" and "cheaper". Anyhow - Arris divisions besides the digital camera and arriscan however will benefit a lot from the red sales. Plenty of demand for MB20s etc, and all reservation holders i spoke to are rather interested in buying zeiss/angenieux/cooke/master primes and/or zooms(certainly different with the indies and budget folks who represent a good part of the red buyers).

ahem - i especially warned, when someone else recommended red, that red might be problematic in the ENG/EFP space: "red certainly offers a much better image quality and more creative options, but for eng etc, format of delivery might be problematic. i don´t see any mayor broadcasters accepting redcodefiles in the near future, they will insist on getting a media (hdcam, xdcam, dvcpro, D5 etc). its the same with cineon and master files - the broadcasters often want to have a hdcam tape, even when uncompressed masters are available." and then recommended another camera: "thomson grass valley also has a very interesting camera in that pricerange, the infinity. but it is delayed and i don´t know when it will be delivered." that is not exactly "red vs scappy old tech" - that is the opposite as i warned that broadcaster IMHO won´t adapt to new workflows, and recommended to have a look at Thomson GV. that is exactly the point - would we have >1500 D20s coming then Arri would been menitioned all the time. red is mentioned all the time because they aim at several market spaces at once, and that is not "these days" but will stay, even increase, if they start delivering. The huge studio/ENG/EFP/pro/consumer core markets of Sony, Ikegami, Thomson, Panasonic aren´t affected to much by this new camera. For SI, Viper, D20, Genesis, F23, 750/790/900, Dalsa and Phantom however it is indeed a special situation, when one camera sells more than all of its competition together. wrong - its the opposite. i have the impression that several people don´t understand the impact of thousands of 4k digital s35mm cinema cameras coming to the market within 12 months. Listen Alexander, i have criticised posters on redforum.net for their incompetent "Sonys death" "Arri is death" etc. Its getting on my nerves as well - we know that in this industry change rarely happen overnight. However in the pre-red era, i thought that it would take 10-20 years until digital aquistion would become the mayority of cinematic shooting. Now my speculation is rather 5-10 years, but that is only a guess, nobody can know that for sure. What i however DO know for sure, is that thousands of possible buyers for a ARRI developped digital s35 cameras are putting there money elsewhere. And i think ARRI is missing its oppurtunity here. fully agreed. agreed, but if we compare cameras or film stock, we don´t compare distribution. And 4k offers lots of production value for post etc besides visible image quality for the audience.

Brad, they have sold to >1500 customers already before NAB. If you wish to call that no competition then we have a quite different understanding of market share, market saturation and revenue. When you think that this is ridiculous - its a pretty common business approach in our industry to pay for a movie before shooting starts, or, even more industrial, thats the way airbus and boeing sell their new product (as 787 or 380 right now) since decades - only on announced specs. what do you expect me to say? i have stated that i wish arri the best, want to see them competeting with red, praised their support, their talented employees, said that i expect delays & screwups @ red (and any other r&d)... ... but absolute statements as in "arri doesn´t sell digital cameras" or "the PJ shortmovie shot on red attracted thousands of people @ NAB, and the reactions we are aware of oscillated from positive to really impressed" are, sorry, 100% correct. imagine aaton would have presold 1500 penelopes and we would been discussing the penelope vs 235 or 416. however i didn´t start this thread and i agree - its speculation for a good part as red still didn´t started delivery. but if they deliver, even later, arri allowed a competitor to leapfrog them - that is, sorry again, a strategic mistake which nobody, who likes arri, should see relaxed. to close my post, let me add that i have the impression that beneath the surface this thread seems to have a "film/arri/oldschool vs. digital/red/new kids on the block"-scheme going - adding a quite unnecessary emotional tone to several posts.

David - it wasn´t me who started a thread regarding "D20 and where it might be going" due to REDs beginning introduction to the market. So better aim at the correct person. we both know that we have filmout & dci @4k, so there would be no reason to artificially reduce a 4k to 2k for release print or digital master. we just have specs to compare and thats exaclty what i have done. which is the -topic- of the thread in which we are posting, and to remember you, i didn´t start it. indeed. I think i made it more than clear that i sincerly hope that ARRI gets a very succesful position in the digital cinema camera market. to be completly open, if i could buy the same product at arri, i wouldn´t hesitate to buy it at a +20% premium there. #1 as they certainly would have a clear support plan (which red is only setting up atm), #2 due to several good personal contacts with arri employees, #3 as its much easier to deal with a manufacturer which actually has a office in your city, #4 as i have had for the most part only positive experiences with their product building quality. i have concerns that arri is missing the timing - since years. when i bought our hdcam camera, arri had no digital camera i could buy. i would 100% preferred to buy at arri. asking them for years when i finally could buy a digital 35mm sensor arri passed. then came red and basicly is about to define the s35/4k digital camera market and they don´t compete. and both of us want them to get into the ring. to make that perfectly clear - i don´t beat up any manufacturer. arri doesn´t sell digital cinema cameras. its now proven that there is a market for thousands of those, right now, right here. arri should competete & partcipate in this market, and not only taking a small chunk out of the rental market, leaving the rest of the market to the japanese behemonths and the american newcomers. my gradmother worked at arri, i have be doing many of my films with arris products and they are real quality. so let me express my concern. i saw it happen at to many fine german manufacturers, leica, steenbeck, even bosch broadcast - they all were champions in their products class and they all missed the translation to digital. and i certainly don´t want to see the same happening at arri. so don´t shoot the messenger.

none of the existing systems, including da vinci, lustre, poogle, baselight, color, whatever really is up to the task. the requirements for a -really- universal DI coloring tool are - good human interface (more than mouse) - open architecture for i/o - 4k and up - XYZ, YUV, RGB colorspaces. lin and log. - Sound - realtime - excellent secondaries - multilayer - compatibility with plugins - 3D Tracking - 2D tracking - selection of chromakeying & cromablenders - Motion Estimation - Topend Rotoscoping - background processing - lots more. as one can easily recognize, several of the points aren´t possible in the same time. realtime is important. having atmosperic 3D light simulation as well. both together aren´t possible as we don´t have enough computing power yet to do such in realtime. however we have plugins which can do excellent light simulation. take clouds in a sky - you can vignette them away or roto them out. if you choose vignetting, you will loose detail in the sky. you are fine with a RT system without roto you will wait on the non-RT system with roto and setting the vignette will be less "jazzy". if you choose roto, you´ll keep detail in the sky. you have to interrupt the session on the RT system and send the shot to the VFX dept. you are fine with a non-rt system with plugins. you will keep working without the VFX dept. another example. clients wants "old film look" - you can fullfill almost anything he wants with a plugin on the desktop system, cinelook as one example - you stack up tons of dirt, dust, scratches, grainlayers, keyframe flicker and jumps in the rt system and it takes muuuch longer. next shot clients now want to have the following 4 shots (which are pretty different) look integrated, strechted black contrast etc. - now you´re in slowmo on the desktop system - you are fast with the rt system the different toolsets in the different systems all fullfill certain task better or worse. different formats (longform fullfeature, commercial, documentary, clip, restauration/integration) require different toolkits. so there is, sad enough, no "one fits it all" approach yet. a lustre can be as frustrating as as a combustion, its all in the shot at hands. however, color will certainly allow many features who did grading in hurry a much more concentrated session as the $/h factor doesn´t need to be so high. i think we might add it to our repertoire. for me, as we have 2 red cameras on order, main setback in color is that it doesn´t do 4k.

its no problem to compare precisely, not rough, 4k and 2k right now, as there is no problem at all to compare PAL and 1080P or s16 and 35mm. This is fully independent of the cameras. Both have PL lock. So lenses can be identical, and i wouldn´t be surprised if many lenses don´t have 4k resolution or expose CA etc. Both can write RAW. Arri has a good optical viewfinder, Red a good electronical - the accuscene, which is wellknown. what we don´t know or only have guestimates or manufacturer specifications are dynamic range, noise etc - for these aspects i can follow your argumentation. BTW - i don´t think that we dont necessarly need 4k for most filmout. 1080p and 2k have proven to be succesful formats, having the lions share of all releases. what i like a lot about 4k a rather the several levels of freedom it adds to postproduction, for grading, keying, tracking, scale, pan & scan, having lots of headroom for skinsmoothing etc. sorry - with all due respect, but that makes no sense. To evaluate a, lets say, Thomson Viper in comparision to a Sony Digitalbetacam, you would evaluate the Viper in PAL or NTSC? Or to compare a Arri 435 with a Arri 416 you would only scan 16mm of the 435 stock? Furthermore there are half a zillion of different downscaling methods - linear, blinear, bicubic etc, all giving different looks when downscaling 4k to 2k. So, one wouldn´t compare the 2 cameras but also different downscaling methods when intentionally reducing reds resolution by 50% to match the D20.

whats a "electronic look"? The images are "Not so much 3D" and "the sky isn´t blue enough" have already been etablished, but "electronic" is new.

agreed for today, but if you look at the business year 2007 - red sold to > 1500 customers already before NAB.

quite off topic :) yeah, it seems like they had 2 revisions of the king cobra board. the 3 king cobra boards i worked on (at looks film and marco polo tv) didn´t show any malfunction at all. however i saw the malfunction you described (blocks) on the earlier King Cobras myself. we then decided to not keep the KC as we always wanted native SDTI - without KC but with JC everything is in SDTI. The JC always worked flawless. Furthermore we use softwarebasing FX and network rendering all the time anyhow - as we don´t do so much TV but much more feature stuff, so we always prefer quality over realtime in that area. but i have to admit, even if i am pretty frustrated by sonys management of xpri, that it is an important part of our architecture here. when you avoid the KC and instead use $$.$$$ of AdobePlugins and Network rendering, it becomes a really nice finishing system. however sonys advertisement of native sdti hdcam AND realtime FX wasn´t correct. it was the one OR the other. yes, ours and the other three are locked @ 25p in most projects (we use the sony 750PC mainly) i wasn´t aware that there were problems? 1) is true, 2) is speculation but 3) i think we agree that sonys service for many XPRI customers was pretty unprofessional.

good news - so lets hope that they will also allow again s16mm. on Feb 2, 2007, however, they still didn´t allow for DVCPRO 100 edited stuff: page 3, §2.1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/pdf/tv/...ormats_v1_4.pdf they only accepted HDCAM, page 2, §1.1.

also beware of the information which the manufacturers -don´t- tell. good example, sony claims 12bit or 10bit colorresolution on their hdcams. thats true for internal processing. however they don tell you that the recorder in the hdcam camera is 8bit. or panasonic, who sell some of their cameras as 1080p - and if you then look deeper into the informations, you will find out that the sensors don´t have 1080 resolution etc. yeah, can confirm that. we have a SDTI-native HDCAM system here. you can dub identical with those systems. generation 100 = generation 0. BUT: if you change a -single- pixel on the image (watermark, tc burn in, crop) the system has to recompress. also valid for the XPRI NLE. edit etc its native, generation 100 = generation 0. use the realtime FX board for one dissolve - and then the internal pipelines switches to the king cobra board, decompress, recompress, even if you don´t use the FX. so, when mastering, we turn off the realtimeFX. and quite often, the manufacturers don´t know about this stuff - the developer knows, but marketing & sales never knew (or understand). So its not always bad behaviour or aggressive marketing of them but rather a lack of technogical knowledge. so, its always important to understand the -complete- workflow.

red certainly offers a much better image quality and more creative options, but for eng etc, format of delivery might be problematic. i don´t see any mayor broadcasters accepting redcodefiles in the near future, they will insist on getting a media (hdcam, xdcam, dvcpro, D5 etc). its the same with cineon and master files - the broadcasters often want to have a hdcam tape, even when uncompressed masters are available. to the original question - xdcam is a very good recording media, but the format written on it (35mbit) isn´t good for post. also, the smaller sensors somehat limit your use of lenses. if you go sony, i wouldn´t start below the 790/750/900R hdcams, if picturequality is a main criteria and you want theatrical release here and there. for eng applications 350 as 900 are overkill already. however, be aware that some broadcasters (BBC) don´t accept xdcam & dvcpro hd as HD delivery. thomson grass valley also has a very interesting camera in that pricerange, the infinity. but it is delayed and i don´t know when it will be delivered.

they started on 35mm, then switched to hdcam. its broadcasted in HD in the US. the dop does the grading on the set, afaik with the F900 camera itself. had a short look at their workflow in their blog, seems he is using multimatrix & blackgamma all the time :) however it won them a peabody.

Sorry we are talking D20? There is no "After sales support" for the D20 - as arri doesn´t sell, and that IS a huge problem for us, as we use ~180-220 camera days a year with ease. arri certainly sells great support if you rent - but no D20 camera. that there is no international service network in the very near future is indeed a problem. red announced they would take care of that but one thing is for sure - the first units won´t have local support. that was, btw, one of the reason why ordered 2 reds. build quality is unknow as of yet. i had lots of trouble with crashing sony F900/2s, heard bad stories about the early D20 days, so i hope for the best here. range of accessories however is excellent, as PL mount (and others), V-Mount, 15/19 rodsystem, interfacing etc is all industry standard and other than the D20 there is a NLE which can edit rawdata even on a notebook - apple. yeah, 2k & 1080p are certainly good enough for >90% of delivery for years. BUT: for us 4k is relevant as with 4k you have so much more headroom for grading, complex VFX (keying, tracking) pan and scan. Also, lets not forget special exhibition, shows etc. as i am sitting here in the studio and posting on the board, i have 3* 1080p rendering in the background for an installation in a ballet - we had to use 3 hdcam for that resolution. Ahem, he was asked directly about the NEXT fullfeature and he said "we don´t know yet" - and that he likes to shoot on the camera. What we do know however is - that Peter Jackson ordered the max amount of reds. indeed. red sold at least 8 units to german rental houses so far. arri none. I sure don´t hope so - the later they wake up the longer i can earn on our reds. ok, without joking: the problem is that arri didn´t sell any digital cameras to rental houses. so the amount of D20 in rental houses, besides arri itself, is 0. sorry, but capitalism works a little bit different. when, as in your example, arri only gains 1.7% of reds market share in digital cinema aquisition, then they have -lost- their leading role as being the world leading manufacturer of cinemacameras, with all the consequences. furthermore, as a producer you -always- try to reduce the budget when it doesn´t reduce the value of the production - so if the arri D20 is "priced at premium" and doesn´t offer additional benefit to the production - its out. then, there are two factors. push & pull. a camera "sought" after is -pull-. a camera which belongs to the dop or producer is -push-. So far we mostly had -pull- in the decision process for cameras, as HDCAM & 35mm gear was quite expensive. but -push- will become VERY present from now. agreed. to make things even more complicated - there will be very few other companies where i could get a replacement when a unit goes belly up in the beginning. red has to offer a replacement service or an insurance asap, but i think that the first one, two months won´t have that. we protected us against this by networking with other reservation holders and by having a second camera as backup, but this is clearly not an option for everyone. however, when schedules are -really- tight, we -always- take at least one spare camera with us, especially when shooting in remote location like deserts etc. Yeah, agreed. And they have spare units (at least here in berlin) for most of their cameras. rental demand is high already now, but all customers so far want to test is out on shortform (clip, commercial etc) before thinking fullfeature. We have told them to be prepared to switch to a 750/900 or 35mm if anything seems bizarre or doesn´t work. however, the first month is reserved for testing anyhow and i hope that until IBC red will have some european service & support strategy. if not, our second unit is due to be shipped september, and we then can offer a second camera if needed.

only facts & specs: #1 resolution & sensor D20 6,63 MP 4:3 sensor 3018 x 2200, 4:3 Aspect Ratio 2880 x 1620, 16: 9 AR RED: 12,64 MP 16:9 sensor 4520 x 2540, 16:9 AR #2 framerates D20: 1-60fps RED: 1-60fps, 120fps windowed. #3 size & weight D20: 7 kg, 39x19x30 cm RED: 4,5 kg, 30x13x16 cm #4 lens systems on camera D20 : PL RED : PL, Canon, Nikon, B4 #5 sensor geometry D20 : S35 (ANSI) RED : S35, 35, S16, 2/3 #6 type D20 : camera, external recording - need for additional deck or device. RED : camcorder, external and internal recording, no need for additional deck or device. #7 RAW recording formats D20: 6.6 MP RAW@4:3 RED: 12.64MP RAW@16.9, 4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p #8 RGB & encoded recording formats D20: 1080p RED: 4K, 2K, 1080P, 720P #9 recording options D20: disc, tape. RED: RAM, Compact Flash, ExpressCard, disc, tape. #10 price D20: not for sale, negotiate, typical 2000-2500$ rental / day. RED: 17.500$ the list would go on for quite a bit - as example, the workflow is something which isn´t in the list at all, and red has clever options there. the strenght of the d20 in comparision to red is the company behind it, as arri can & will give you excellent support if you pay it, but certainly not the product. thousands of visitors of this NAB, who saw the images might disagree. i, also having seen the red 4k footage running on 4k projection, disagree - the images were -much- better than the stuff i know from sony & arri. have a look at the images and clips shoot with red on their website. even if they are still prototype they easly surpass -anything- i have seen from the D20 so far. we are not speaking about "every other camera" - we are speaking about the D20. although i bought a hdcam camera, i never said or even thought that the 900 would be ideal for all cinematic purposes. with the red one however i don´t see many many reasons to choose another camera for >95% of our feature work. here i have to agree with you - partially. there still can be screw-ups, delays, whatever. i have seen dozens of manufacturers with wild annoucements (anyone remembers "play"?) - but the people involved in the red project and what they developed & manufactured within the recent 15 months which i can deny. be assured that -once our first red arrives- will quality-check the hell out of it. however, as the threadstarter -especially- asked about Arri D20 in comparision to red we have to compare. red stated that the delivery starts within the next weeks. arri has the tools, technology and the talented employees who can built a better camera than red. the sooner arri realizes that, the better for everyone of us. competition is good, and right now, the D20 doesn´t offer a real competition.

#1 i have never said that it is the right camera for everyone. so please don´t put words in my mouth. i exactly understand why there is not single a camera that fits all. i am also aware of the sales figures of cameras in consumer, prosumer, eng/broadcast and cinema - cinema is by far the smallest. you have asked about the arri D20, not about cameras in general. and the market spot of the d20 now happens to be exact the one which overlaps with red. To be precise, at the lower end of the red. red sold over 1500, if not thousands of cameras meanwhile. arri has, as far as i know, some tens of cameras. And the D20 won´t be easy to rent out or even sell anymore, if arri now decides that their product is ready to sold. #2 its not me "thinking" that red is superior. a - technological facts, not opinions. red has a better resolution, a higher framerate with more flexible workflows in more compact formfactor, is lighter and, allows more sensorareas etc - at a fraction of the cost. in fact, if you can´t strike a very good deal, buying a red will cost you less than renting a d20 for a week. b- the worldclass dops who saw the footage or even shot with the red have expressed it quite precise, that the reds images are stunning. go to the website, download moving or still images, judge yourself. the difference in resolution is almost ntsc to hd if you compare 1080 to 4k. once more you are putting words in my mouth, sir. i wasn´t talking about your company, i was talking of the, and this is the topic of the thread, market outlook for arri with the D20. so its rather you, sir, who is making generalisations here. furthermore, i happen to own & operate a full line of hdcam gear, which would certainly be qualified as tested & tried. i can assure you that sonys teething problems in hdcams early days certainly weren´t tried & tested - class 1 monitors couldn´t show 25psf etc... meanwhile its tried and tested. the F23 certainly will have its own evolution, as any other camera. You are calling me ignorant? and are suggesting that i think everything else will go dodo? sorry sir, before making such bold statements - i didn´t say such things. so please start -reading- my posts before you answer or even begin personal attacks. the question at hand is: "D20 and where might it be going" in the "arri d20 subforum". ok then, so what is your sales & manufacturing projection for the camera in question - the arri d20? 50? 100? may i remind you that red already had >1500 orders before NAB? from key account customers like top LA rental houses & peter jackson over midsized customer like us down to lowbudget indies? and finally, to make this clear: i just responded in a sharp tone because you put words in my mouthm but: sony, panasonic & thomson GV are in the broadcast market. this market is huge. the benefits & advantages of the red are of no huge importance for this market. we can be sure that there will be more panasonic HVX200 solds in a month than reds in a year. but the 1080p, 2k and 4k markets will be -flooded- with reds within the next 24 months, and any competition will have a pretty tough challenge in these markets. so if you plan to spend >200k on a F23 setup, its your choice and if it fits your need might be a excellent choice. the fate of the D20 however is pretty clear. if they don´t drop prices like theres no tomorrow it will be a marginalized niche camera. and i certainly don´t wish that arri becomes a niche player for digital cinema.

yes, i said before, however: it is only one company. between the productions, we do rent out our equipment, as our own stuff, services & co-productions usually only take 6-8 months a year. company was founded in 1989. started with 35mm, mostly doing stopmotion, moco, sfx & sounddesign. when vfx begun to become big we took the challenge and that really paid off. over the years with these revenues we were able to buy complete workflows. as the german industy is rather, lets say, slow in taking benefit of new tools, we often were early or even first adoptors for new tech. Be it DigitallSLR for stills, DAW for Audio, early discreet logic when everyone was still using blackbox systems, on-line NLE instead of steenbeck etc. in 2002 & 2003 we then bought a complete cinealta workflow (lenses, vtr, class 1 monitors, measurement, ff, online nles, grade etc), digital and film begun to coexist. the recent years more and more jobs became digital, we still looked for better systems. hdcam sr wasn´t interesting (we do mainly uncompressed disc 4:4:4 if we need higher quality). arri, thomson, aaton, panavision, sony, panasonic, dalsa all hadn´t better cameras we could buy, then run into a small startup called red and placed a order early on, saw their 4k testfootage then @ IBC and placed second order. its a small company however (8 people in its core). our role varies all the time. di for a high budget, rental for a mid budget, vfx for a low budget, exec prod for a series, training customers for the manufacturers, raising funds for a doc... only common points are that we mainly work for & with people we already know - you´ll hardly find any advertising or pr from us - and try to make really cool films here and there. berlins filmindustry, besides of babelsberg, isn´t that big anymore, and babelsberg is a universe of its own. let me add that i really like this renaissance style. Its a nice little niche between the freelancers & postproboutiques on the one hand and the mayor studios, productioncompanys and large rental houses on the other hand. personally i enjoy grading & producing most, and rarely shoot myself these days, but that might change again.

yes, that would be a really exciting camera. also, there are technological concepts for multisensor HDR capture. i sincerly hope that HDR cameras go into production within the next 10 years. there are some mayor challenges for arri camera. - getting the internal "go for it". i have experienced this situation myself first hands several times. good example was discreet logic, who had their legacy systems (FFI) making huge revenues and didn´t understand that the next-gen postproduction would be desktop systems. arri isn´t a stocklisted corp, and the internal management is rather conservative. - positioning the new digital product. reds pricing is really somewhat aggressive.