Tim Pipher

Gimme a break - this isn't capitalism - this is exploiting an inefficiency for personal gain, I suppose, but don't act like this is stock in IBM. Red Cameras aren't a commodity designed for investment and appreciation. This is no different than buying an iphone or a wii and trying to make somebody pay extra for it.

 

I seriously question the wisdom in what you are attempting, trying to game your fellow filmmakers, but to each their own. i bet your wondering if your "investment" was very smart, b/c i bet you're having trouble finding suitors willing to pony up for your positions.

Oh brother. I give up. I didn't invest in the cameras for appreciation (although if I did, so what?) I invested to use them, and then found they wouldn't work for my application because they changed an important spec. So I try to let people know that if it would help them to get cameras in the coming weeks instead of this summer, instead of me turning them back in to RED, they can get them from me for a mutually agreeable price. Why would I go through the hassles and risks of wire transfers, contracts, phone calls, e-mails etc. without a reasonable premium, when I can simply cancel my order and get a full refund from RED?

Sorry for all the grief I've caused. Please forget about my offer, and for those that need or want cameras now, the consensus is that you have to wait no matter how badly you need them because you are being duped.

By the way, this Cine Equipment Classifieds section works wonders -- I heartily recommend it.

But the idea of trying to make a profit from "selling a place in line" for a camera, at a "premium", is just offensive to me. I would have had the same reaction if someone had posted either of the following:

 

Hi, I put a down payment on three Aaton Penelope cameras and now I don't need them. So I will sell my down payments to you for the price of the down payment, plus a premium, and then you still have to pay the balance of the camera plus give Aaton another $500 so they will put the camera in your name, and Aaton will only give you a 90 day warranty on the brand new camera.

So somebody needs three Aaton Penelope cameras within a month or so. He calls the company -- he finds out that he can't get them until summer due to heavy demand. But he needs them for a project this spring! So he finds someone who is offering them for sale at a price he finds reasonable. He is made aware that he even has an option to receive a manufacturer's warranty if he wants to pay the company $500. So the buyer is stupid if he wants to pay a premium to get the cameras he needs sooner rather than renting for three or four months? And the seller is evil for making the deal possible?

Who are you to make that judgement? If you find that offensive, you get offended far too easily -- in fact, for no reason at all -- about a transaction that has nothing to do with you.

As a matter of fact, I'm very offended at your aspersions, and likely the people who are making me the offers are offended too.

Not to turn this thread in the direction of others, but there is a difference between an "anti-red bias" and a "not getting overly excited until a product is thoroughly tested" attitude.

 

:ph34r:

You're right Chris. I probably made a mistake bringing the "anti-Red bias" stuff into this thread. But as I said above, I'm trying to figure out why there was such venom directed at me. The person most vehemently taking shots at me made his disgust of all RED "hype" clear. It was the only explanation I could come up with for his beef.

Tim,

 

 

Everything about the hype surrounding the RED camera disgusts me, and the thought of someone trying to make a profit by selling a reservation for a place in line for a camera, let along three cameras, just strikes me as absurd.

 

-Tim

You know, I've heard about an anti-Red bias on this forum, and always taken it with a grain of salt. But Holy Smokes, when a person is even demonized for deciding not to buy RED, it makes me think that maybe reports of unreasonable Red-hate may be true.

Tim,

 

Did they give you an estimate on when they would ship?

 

Bryan

Hello Bryan. Here's the latest update from RED, posted on Reduser.net:

Updated 3/20/08

1. SCHEDULE:

Quote, Jim, 12.27.07, "We expect to get production up to 400 cameras for January and 500-600 February on. 700 units by May.

That is a rough schedule. We have been late in the past so we are hesitant to post a firm schedule and be late again. But this is what we are thinking- today."

As of March 20, 2008, Jim's schedule is on track. Remember, this is an estimate, a best guess. It is not a guaranty.

Camera reservation #s1000-1250 are shipping now. Reservation #s 1251-1500 are being contacted the week of March 17th.

501-1000 begin shipping in February

1001-1500 begin shipping in March

1501-2000 begin shipping in April

2001-2700 begin shipping in May

2700-3400 begin shipping in June

3400+ (Current Orders) begin shipping in July

So you're in the business of buying and reselling RED deposits/reservations.

 

How's that working out for you?

 

Best,

-Tim

I'm in the business of buying equipment and putting it in my studio. If I find I've made an equipment purchase that I can't use, I try to dispose of it at the best price I can.

We have another word for it, but since this is a family forum, I won't repeat it. Pretty disgusting.

I am absolutely mystified as to why anyone would be disgusted by someone trying to sell something in the Cine Equipment Classifieds at a profit. I don't usually disgust people, and can't quite figure out how I did it.

It makes me more and more anti capitalism really hope it goes tits up for you.

You summed it up beautifully -- you're anti-capitalism. Imagine, making an investment and selling it at a profit -- shameful. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other businesses out there selling goods and services for more than they paid. In fact, come to think of it, every business and service provider does it -- including you -- or they go out of business. Or maybe you work for free?

Although I'm an enthusiastic believer in RED, I'm not going to need the three cameras I have on order -- 1520, 1521, and 1522.

If you'd like them, please let me know. My thinking is that you would tell me the accessories you would like with the cameras and I would pass that along to RED, along with a new mailing address (yours).

At the proper time you would wire the money for the cameras to RED. After receiving the cameras, you might also want to send RED an additional $500 per camera to switch the name to yours -- I think you'd then have a three month warranty from RED. Normally you'd have to ship the cameras back to RED for evaluation before they'd give you the warranty, but if you immediately contacted them after receipt of your brand new cameras, I doubt they'd require that you send them back.

I'm looking to receive the amount of my deposit ($1,750 per camera which will be credited towards your camera purchase) plus a premium.

Please let me know what premium you're offering by e-mailing Tim(at)SoutheasternStudios.com.

Thanks!

Here's a demo from the Digital Cinema Society:

http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/Popup....000segment2.mov

It sounds intriguing. :)

 

I think that the only question that "concerns" me is that the deal makes the DP (and others) sort of de facto Producers. For me anyway, so often in what I do, the "Producers" who hire me (and others like me) take advantage of our experience and kind of expect us to do some of their work while they walk off with that above-the-line credit. They get to stroll in, expect us to "fix" the problems that they should've prepared for in prep, and they are the credited "Producer." As I get older, I get more irritated with that arrangement. I think that's where "jaded" old crew people come from. :P

 

The money is very nice, but at a certain point, it's also nice to be given credit for the work you do. Someone may keep working for you if they enjoy the paycheck, but if they feel like they are being taken advantage of at all, the quality of the work they do may drop as their enthusiasm goes.

 

Just my .02. Other than that, I might actually consider it if my kids weren't still in school here in LA.

Good point -- you would be serving as a producer and would be credited as such. By the way, schools are great here!

I'm opening an HD TV and movie studio next month in the beautiful Florida coastal city of Vero Beach (sunny and 80's today -- perfect day for golf, tennis & surfing). A description of the studio is at the end of my post.

Let's say I'm looking for a talented and well connected in-house cinematographer. Let's say I'm offering $100,000 per year (no state income tax, low cost of living) plus possible large bonuses (the bonuses based on the studio's success), plus full medical benefits. Let's also say I'm offering a little perk -- the ability for the cinematographer to take semi-regular leave of absences to work on his/her current outside projects. That way, the cinematographer could keep working his best current jobs, plus receive a steady paycheck and benefits.

But I'd also be asking for something additional from this DP: That he or she, especially in the early days, would work closely with the sales department (usually me) to help make contact with his/her business connections, with the aim of letting these connections know about our facility and services and obtaining their business.

Let's also say the other two key staff -- a top flight editor and a top flight VFX artist -- were working under the same agreement.

My questions are:

Can the three creative positions be expected to attempt to help generate business, and will their sales input actually help?

If these three creative people are well aware that their bonuses will be higher the more successful the studio is, will they be more apt to help the sales staff?

Is the opportunity for these key people to keep their best current projects a good idea, or will it be more trouble than it's worth?

Will talented people with connections (therfore very experienced) find this set-up intriguing? In effect, I'd be evaluating the potential employees' connections in addition to their talents.

Thanks for any input. A description of the studio is below:

Southeastern Studios, located in beautiful Vero Beach, Florida, opens March. Many of our productions will take place on our cyclorama sound stage with live green screen compositing through our Orad HD virtual studio system, one of two such systems available to the public in the United States, and one of the few in the world to be tethered to high end cinema quality cameras and decks. Through this virtual studio technology, our clients' productions can appear to originate from huge and elaborate multi-million dollar TV stages, luxurious mansions, the Grand Canyon, cars, airplanes, restaurants, hotel lobbies, the beach, or outer space, but will actually be produced from the comfort of our studio, with sets being changed at the touch of a button.

When we're not employed by outside clients for commercials, network quality news and talk shows, music videos, and infomercials, we'll be our own client making movies. We intend to prove that high end movie production is not only possible from the confines of our green screen facility, but by using our three fully tracked HD cameras (Panasonic HPX3000's), making our virtual environments in advance (and over time compiling a virtual back lot), and compositing them with our actors live, massive time and cost savings will result.

Almost all of our gear will also be portable for on-location traditional productions, accommodated nicely by our two luxurious motor homes.

Southeastern Studios will be very user-friendly to producers from anywhere in the world. We offer free airfare and free use of our two beautiful homes by the beach to cast and crew using our facility.

Are you looking for someone in the states or can anyone from any part of the world apply? ;)

Hello Marcos. I like your reel -- what role(s) did you play in those productions?

In answer to your question, I'd love for you to apply. Are you able to currently work in the States? If not, do you (or anyone) have any insight as to the procedure of making someone from outside the U.S. eligible to work here?

I'm originally from Toronto (I noticed the 416 area code on your phone #) but I got in the easy way -- married my American wife 23 years ago.

In-house Cinematographer/Visual Effects Artist needed for new studio in beautiful Vero Beach, Florida, opening in March. The perfect candidate will have great expertise in lighting and high end HD gear, and solid visual effects skills including proficiency in 3D Studio Max. Many of our productions will take place on our cyclorama sound stage with live green screen compositing through our Orad HD virtual studio system, one of two such systems available to the public in the United States, and one of the few in the world to be tethered to high end cinema quality cameras and decks. Through this virtual studio technology, our clients' productions can appear to originate from huge and elaborate multi-million dollar TV stages, luxurious mansions, the Grand Canyon, cars, airplanes, restaurants, hotel lobbies, the beach, or outer space, but will actually be produced from the comfort of our studio, with sets being changed at the touch of a button.

When we're not employed by outside clients for commercials, network quality news and talk shows, music videos, and infomercials, we'll be our own client making movies. We intend to prove that high end movie production is not only possible from the confines of our green screen facility, but by using our three fully tracked HD cameras (Panasonic HPX3000's), making our virtual environments in advance (and over time compiling a virtual back lot), and compositing them with our actors live, massive time and cost savings will result.

Almost all of our gear will also be portable for on-location productions, accommodated nicely by our two luxurious motor homes.

This full time position offers a salary of $40,000 (with no state income tax), full medical benefits, three weeks annual paid vacation, and the possibility of large annual bonuses.

Please peruse our website (SoutheasternStudios.com) and, if interested, e-mail your resume to Tim@SoutheasternStudios.com. Sorry -- no telephone calls, please.

Thanks,

Tim Pipher

Nice work, Scott. If you're looking for full time work and would like to live in Florida (nice weather, no state income tax), I hope you'll consider my studio that opens in March.

We'll create our virtual environments in advance (and over time compile a virtual back lot), and composite them live using our HD Orad machine.

We'll be doing paid jobs for outsiders and making our own movies during gaps in paid work. We're also pitching a TV series or two -- maybe we'll get lucky. Should be fun!

www.southeasternstudios.com

Here's a quote from Barry Green on another forum (I hope I'm allowed to quote him):

Ian Bates saw a "shootout" at the Jackson Hole film festival that featured the F23, HPX3000, Red, and others. He said that the HPX3000 and F23 were visually indistinguishable. Considering the F23 costs 4x as much, that's saying something for the 3000.

Easy to fix -- typo concerning year of Krazy Glue shoot.

For an example of what Michael is saying, the Canon 11x and 21x zooms are available in ENG or Cine-style, and they are optically identical. But there are lenses such as the Fuji 10-100 that are not made in anything other than cine-style and there is no ENG equivalent.

 

Back to my original recommendation, for a multi-camera studio setup and all around work, I would say to go with the Canon ENG style zooms. The versatile way to go, IMHO.

Thanks Mitch. What do you think about Panasonic's CAC feature that comes with the HPX3000? According to the Panasonic brochure, using a Fujinon or Canon Lens that's CAC enabled will result in images virtually the same as using good quality primes. If you like that CAC feature, would the Canon HJ22ex7.6B work as a jack of all trades lens? Sorry to keep grilling you -- but do you have a ballpark price for that lens?

Finally, I'll be phoning you soon. I know your company handles rentals and sales -- do you work both departments?

Thanks again,

Tim

"I'm also hoping European TV producers will take advantage of what I'll be offering. Virtual studio production is much more prevalent in Europe (and Asia too), but it's my understanding that they don't have any HD virtual systems there that are open to the public. With their strong currencies (euro & pound) and possible Florida incentives, they could save a lot of money coming here. Plus, lots of them really enjoy Florida and are quite comfortable here."

 

One flaw I see with this plan, even for Canadians, is US immigration.

 

Any one coming into the USA that says, "I'm going to be shooting a movie at XYZ studio." Will most likely be denied entry to the USA. US immigration may consider this to be "work" and demand proper permits (this can take months and cost thousands), even if the person is paying for the service at your studio.

 

Also, Hollywood has done a very good job at lobbying congress to keep any one even remotely associated with film & TV out of the country. Lot's of Canadians get turned back at the border, even for some thing as mundane as a location scout. You get told, "hire an American to do that job, we don't need you here."

 

Just some thing to keep in mind, US immigration has become quite touchy in recent years, and there is nothing you can do to make it easier for foreign clients.

 

R,

Thanks Richard. I'll have to look into that. I'll be none-too-pleased if my own government stops people from from coming into to help support one of its taxpaying citizens, which will then allow that citizen to hire more tax paying citizens. Actually, it's not easy for a US citizen to get going in business right here. I've spent two years dealing with my county government's unbelievable red tape and ridiculous and expensive obstacles just to get to the verge of being able to open, and I'm not done yet.

I sure see lots of foreign citizens conducting business at their NAB booths. Seems hard to believe they've gone through months of paperwork to do business here for a few days or a week, but maybe they have.

Thanks -- I'll check it out.

I agree with most of Richard's post. I would add that the equipment rental/ studio space rental business is incredibly hard to keep up with. Why? Because there is always something new out there that people want. So if you have HPX 3000 cameras, people will want Red. If you buy Red cameras people will want F23's, etc.

Having worked at film/ video rental houses for ten years, that is the story of our lives. If you have the bread and butter acct's that Richard talks about above, it is a little easier to stay afloat and keep up with technology. But honestly I just can't even believe how fast technology is advancing. And being that these cameras are not cheap, just how many cameras can you afford to turn around or to have idling there waiting to be rented out. That happens everywhere, but small markets are particularly prone to be terrible. Rental houses in LA have to constantly buy the best, newest gear and can't make much on them because there are SO MANY rental houses renting the same gear, ultimately driving the rental prices to ridiculously low amounts. And so, for that same reason, people that go to a smaller town on production most of the times bring the gear from LA, Miami, or NY, etc.

 

I am not saying it is impossible to do. I just think is very hard, because the competition is so fierce and large amounts of money are required to invest and upkeep with constantly evolving technology as well as just keeping the facility open through the lean times that would surely come. I hate to sound pessimistic, I just think the chances of surviving WITHOUT your bread and butter all-year-round accounts are very slim.

 

As an idea, maybe talking to your local/ state government about any potential subsidies/ partnerships they may have to open these facilities. Here in New Mexico, film productions have whipped politics to a frenzy and Gov. Richardson has made it possible for some people to get a state loan for partial funds to open a $100 million + film studio facility through a State Legislature bill. I know some other states, such as North Carolina, Louisiana and NY are very aggressively following in the heels of NM with the subsidies/ loans/ tax rebates to attract film bussiness.

 

Good luck.

Thanks Saulie. Those are some really good points to ponder.

I'll need 3 or 4 days per month of full studio rentals at a discounted price to hold my own, and 6 to 8 days to really thrive. You and Richard are right about the core clients, and I think I can get them. Plus, I'll be pitching my own projects -- maybe I'll be one of my own core clients.

You're also right about the expense of keeping up with the latest/greatest technology. My thinking is that starting off with 2008 leading edge equipment will buy me some time. 2003 Vipers and F950's still have a great deal of utility. If things go well, there will be money to keep up with the latest equipment. If things don't go well, I won't need to.

As far as competition, of course I'll have it. But their aren't a ton of cycs this size offering this easy access, in Florida. There's one other HD 3D virtual studio system in Florida, but it's government owned and not open to the public. In fact, I only know of only one other in the United States that's open to outsiders, none in California, and only a handful in the world. There will be a good number of REDs around in Florida if my customers want them for regular greenscreen work (I have three reserved but may not be able to take them due to their lack of HDSDI outputs that are necessary for virtual studio production, but have associates close by who will deliver theirs to my studio when needed), but there are currently very few HPX3000s (or F23's etc.).

The state of Florida provides sizable incentives to produce here, but won't help with the start-up costs. If you meet the criteria, anything you spend with me and the rest of your production in Florida will generate 15% cash back to you.

I'm also hoping European TV producers will take advantage of what I'll be offering. Virtual studio production is much more prevalent in Europe (and Asia too), but it's my understanding that they don't have any HD virtual systems there that are open to the public. With their strong currencies (euro & pound) and possible Florida incentives, they could save a lot of money coming here. Plus, lots of them really enjoy Florida and are quite comfortable here.

Thanks for your input Saulie.

Tim

Tim I got your email on this system but it doesn't let me send. That should go to all of you who use this board ot send me emials. Don't! The answer is that I don't get offended by much of anything. Why should I? You did nothing wrong. As for my comments about business plan etc, I meant overall not just realted to the camera forum question. Look at the post you made and 90 percent of it is a story about your past. That's great but this story should be about your goal, not a buffer for failure. I have been a big part of many studios as both consultant, cleint, employee, etc so know what it takes. You don't sound like a dummy so I am sure you are doing the right things. Do what you think is best, give it all, and I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks again Walter.

By the way, I didn't send you an e-mail -- maybe you have that automatic thing on this site enabled that automatically e-mails you posts about certain topics.

I'd say based on your post that you will loose your shirt. I've watched many studios open over the years, even in NY that simply failed. I can tell you of one right now in Brooklyn with a big name, by a big river that is secretly suffering and looking for other forms of income even though you would think that can't be true. There is far more to opening up and maintaining a successful studio than simply having the 'latest, greatest, equipment" and an attitude that you proved them wrong once before and you might be able to do it again. Frankly it's one of the reasons I said good luck in another post to you and stopped offering thoughts because you made it about finding some magic bullet in a camera over a solid business plan, research into area needs, and all the other things that I have dealt with with successful studios over the years, etc. It takes more work then you'd believe to make a studio successful. Having been a part of Silvercup in NY in the very beginning, now a well established studio, and having seen five others that come to mind in the NY area that have made it, I can tell you it is a lot of puling out of hair, more overhead than you think, and a sales and marketing department that needs a lot of time and money.

Thanks Walter. In fairness though, I don't think I have an attitude that just because I've succeeded before against what others say can't be done that I'll automatically succeed again -- I freely admit that sometimes the naysayers were right in my past projects, and as the title of this thread suggests.

That other sub-forum was about cameras, so I didn't get into my business plan nor was I asked about it. I was/am interested in the cameras you suggested, and asked you some follow-up questions that you chose not to answer -- I was afraid I had offended you in some way -- hope I didn't. My engineer recommended the same cameras, in fact, although I would prefer cameras that could be used in studio and in the field.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Don't think that I don't pay close attention to them. And thanks for your green screen tips that I've read around the web. Just before your post to me I complimented you in another thread about your outdoor greenscreen pick-up scene that you added to your car infomercial -- it was indistinguishable from the original real scenes.

Read some of my articles on greeenscreen. They may help.

 

http://www.bluesky-web.com/exteriorgreeenscreen.htm

Walter: I loaded and watched your outdoor blue screen pick-up segment from the infomercial -- it was indistinguishable from the original actual location scenes. Well done!

I'm in Horseshoe Valley.

 

R,

Lovely place to be anytime, but especially (for me) in the summer. I know a guy who lives there -- Ron Pegg. I take several trips a year to a little village called Feversham, not far from the Beaver Valley and Thornbury. In fact, I met Toronto producer Damian Lee at the Thornbury pier last summer.

If you need summer scenes for your next production and it's February, I'll be here for you. After all, it was 78 degrees here today.

Or, if you're filming up there in the summer and want to try HD, I'll likely be about 45 minutes away -- I'll drop off what you need.

Virtual sets are great if you need a bottomless pit or a city on another planet. But the vast majority of what we do happens in ordinary residental or business locations. For that, the big issue I see is that a relatively inexpensive set or practical location gives the actors a sense of reality. Try being "in the moment" when at the moment you're surrounded by a very bright and unpleasant shade of green. Not so bad if you're supposed to be mingling with space aliens, but counterproductive to an intimate bedroom scene.

-- J.S.

Thanks for your comments John. To play devil's advocate, I'll agree that most people will prefer ordinary residential or business locations for their productions because most scenes take place in ordinary locations. But I don't expect everyone to do every production from my studio. If I get just a small percentage of productions that do need non-practical locations or looks (greenscreen productions), I'll be doing fine.

That said, I am going to push the envelope on ordinary living room, bar room, ballroom, and bedroom scenes. While none of Sin City looked particularly life like due to their preference for the over-all look, I can think of several apartment scenes, hotel room scenes, bar scenes, and a bedroom scene or two that looked real. And in The 300, there were also several intimate indoor scenes between the hero and his wife.

Mixing in real props and real doors with the virtual walls, especially when the walls would naturally be blurred anyway due to a typical movie DOF (in virtual the DOF blurr is accomplished by the system), makes for great practical looking interiors, including huge looking spaces (like a hotel lobby) or a living room with fabulous ocean views -- difficult to accomplish with a real location or a real soundstage. In fact, I recently pitched a network a new soap opera from my studio. They were intrigued with the idea of soap set interiors having beautiful ocean and marina views. Although they've turned it down for now, the virtual set idea got me in the door of a media giant -- a door that I've found difficult to pass without virtual.

Also, for something like a soap where you normally need an enormously expensive and huge facility, virtual sets allow for unlimited sets from the same cyc.

By the way, just to give you a little information on the cameras I am leaning toward (the Panasonic HPX3000 recorded to a Wafian HR 2 deck, or onboard at D5 quality), the reports of shoot offs that I came across on the internet said that the 3000 was significantly sharper than the F900 and HPX2000, and indistinguishable from the F23. If that's true, keys should be really good. Plus, the most realistic virtual set ups I've seen all have another thing I'll have -- an Ultimatte chromakeyer.