Mark Kenfield

It'll be interesting to see how the Edge lands. The feature-set is so robust (and Kinefinity's ecosystem so much more mature than it was previously), that I suspect it'll see a much bigger uptake than they've seen previously.

And the more that are out in the wild, the more accepted they'll become.

It makes a lot of sense, there's a lot of wonderful spherical and anamorphic lens options lost to larger formats, and the higher datarates of these 6k+ sensors cause a lot of grief too.

Given a little bit of time, I think people are going to realise that the only difference larger formats really give you are (potentially) shallower DoF and improvements in overall image quality that can only be seen in a few (quite specific) viewing environments.

I just hope they have the good sense to make this one a unibody design (with the battery plate integrated), and include 1-8 stops of internal ND and a significantly faster boot times (like the Venice), so that operation can become a bit smoother and faster.

What are people's thoughts on the Kinefinity Mavo Edge that was just announced recently? 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/04/27/kinefinity-mavo-edge-8k-internal-prores-raw-recording/

I've never seen a Kinefinity camera in the wild personally, but specs-wise this thing is just incredible. It's practically everything I've been asking manufacturers for, for years (and a number of cool things that would never have occurred to me):

• Unibody design (but still tiny)
• Internal NDs that allow for precision in exposure (so no big 2-3 stop jumps in density) this is a HUGE time saver
• All the Prores flavours/framerates + all the downsampling options you could want
• Internal scratch mic (for audio sync)
• A couple of different compression options for the raw recording
• Affordable media (though you'll want to stick with Samsung "PRO" NVMEs for the MLC Nand - to deal with continuous 8k recording)
• Integrated V-mount plate (so you're not having to worry about power cables as a point of failure/snag point)
• The added option of integrated BP-U batteries will be terrific for times you need to jam the camera on a car's dashboard (or similar tight spots)
• TRUE 12-bit 4k 4:4:4 RGB recording, downsampled from 8k (I'm pretty sure this is the first camera to ever offer this)
• Clear manual controls, and control screen (I don't know what Kinefinity menus are like, but if most of the essentials can be adjusted from the main screen, life should be fairly easy).
• True flexibility in sensor windowing and squeeze ratios (like the Mini LF), so that whatever image format, aspect ratio, lens type, anamorphic squeeze, or final deliverable you're working to - you can set it in camera, and don't have to rely on bringing in specific external monitors that have the controls you need.
• Good variable framerates
• Built-in power outputs, so you don't have to be adding additional power plates just to get your basic accessories running.
• Enough monitoring outputs to make life easy
• Dual Base ISO
• Two proprietary video outputs (for running a Kinefinity EVF and Monitor at the same time) - TAKE NOTE CANON!
• A "Lens" cable port at the front (which I'm hoping is going to be capable of powering FIZ motors (and not just conventional servo motors). This could allow for a SUPER-tidy camera build with RF-integrated motors like the Cforce Mini RF.
• A super-easy, super-flexible base lens mount, that can be adapted to basically anything you need/want
• Extremely fast sensor readout, for minimal jello skew.

I keep trying to think of what else I'd want to add to a camera, or a physical build-layout that I'd prefer, and I keep coming up blank. 12G-SDI ports for 4k external monitoring would be nice (not that we have 4k monitors on-set very often), and an integrated EVF/Monitor like the Arri's new one for the Mini LF (so the operator can instantly move between the two) also comes to mind (and that's certainly an accessory that Kinefinity could build down the line). But that's about it.

The camera simply sounds pretty much perfect for my needs.

The one spec question I do still have is boot-up time. The Sony Venice and Canon C500ii (with their 4-5 second boot times) have really set the standard here. So I've got fingers-crossed the Edge can manage sub-10 seconds at least.

Warranty repairs/support is a concern (I'm in Australia and I don't know what the Kinefinity situation is like down here). 

Image-wise, I've seen gorgeous stuff produced on the Mavo LF, so I suspect this will do fine on that front. The Mavo LF's highlights do seem to clip a little harshly, but that's about the only imaging concern I have at the moment, they seem to have found a really nice space for themselves in terms of their colour science.

What an incredibly exciting camera.

I no that no Producer is ever going to ask for it (which is a serious concern), but I can see this camera genuinely making my life on set easier (and allowing me to make my days faster). And that's a big deal.

What do you think?

29 minutes ago, Ahmed Dhahyan said:

Thanks for your attention Phil. Yes You're right , that's what I want to know. When I want to footage 24fps it's any problem with old ballast. Actually I'm no need more than a 24fps 

Should work just fine at 24fps.

It's an old light though. Service, parts, and possibly even bulbs may be difficult to get your hands on. So it's important to keep that in mind. Nothing wrong with old lights that work though.

1 hour ago, Albion Hockney said:

Yea the LED light companies over the hype the output on all of these lights so much! 

They certainly make it difficult to judge. It's why you always need comprehensive photometrics (especially including beam angle) in order to accurately judge the output.

The Aputure 600D for example, they're listing some of the specs, but not clearly clarifying the specific beam angle and modifier being used for each measurement.

In a way the most useful measurement (in order to compare the output to existing LEDs) is the photometrics of the light without any modifier (where you have a broad, 100+ degree beam angle). As that's what will tell you how the output actually compares to existing fixtures out there.

11 hours ago, Jae Solina said:

Thanks for the test. I'm pretty excited about these powerful LED's. Technically 3 Forza 500s are still cheaper than at 1.2k HMI right?

Depends on the HMI. But they are very attractively priced. My Area48 remote phosphor LEDs were about $4000 each (with all the basic accessories) and they're 160w each. For the price of two Area48s (320w of LED output) you can now get three Forza 500s (1500w of LED output). And the colour quality seems very comparable between the two.

No tungsten on the Forza, and to be fair the Area48s get much better lumen-per-watt output (so two of them are closer to half the output of three Forzas (than the 1/5 the wattage would imply).

But still, that's almost double the lumens for the same price.

And the Forzas are MUCH more versatile with modifiers (excluding the ability to change colour).

14 hours ago, Roly Osborne said:

Thanks for this. How do you find the fan noise on the Forza?

 

I didn't notice the fan noise at all. Though to be fair I wasn't looking for it. They seemed plenty quiet on the whole though.

Hey gents,

So I tested the Forza 500 up against my Profoto 1200w HMI today, and figured some of you might be interested in the results.

Long-story short? I was sadly underwhelmed by the output of the Forza.

Colour-wise the Forza was very impressive. Effectively equivalent to the HMI bulb according to my spectrometer. And the beam from the LED is remarkably even too (evidently a COB has significant advantages over an open-faced point-source light in this regard)

Output-wise however, there's clearly still no replacement for displacement. At 800 ISO and somewhere around 4-5 meters away from the lights (I didn't measure the distance, as I was only interested in comparative output), using a 50 degree Profoto Magnum reflector on the HMI (focussed to an evenly-spread beam), and the Forza's slightly tighter-beamed standard reflector, the numbers came in at:

- Profoto 1200w HMI: f/11 + 2/10
- Forza 500w LED: f/5.6 + 8/10

So approximately a 1.5 stop advantage to the HMI (that's three times more output - you'd need three Forza 500s to match the output of the 1200w Profoto)

Pairing the Forza up with it's Fresnel attachment (which works well, and has a pretty remarkable 45-10 degree range) I got:

- Forza 500w LED @ 45 degrees: f/5.6 + 1/2
- Forza 500w LED @ 20 degrees: f/8 + 6/10
- Forza 500w LED @ 10 degrees: f/11 + 1/2

Zooming the Magnum reflector on the Profoto in to create it's most intense hotspot (the hotspot being about twice the width of the Forza at 10 degrees - but the outer edges of the beam still spreading close to 50 degrees overall) I got:

- Profoto 1200w HMI: f/22 + 8/10

That's just a hair shy of f/32 (and with broad-beam reflector). With a tighter reflector that didn't lose as many lumens to the broader surrounding beam/spill those numbers would go up even higher.

Which suggests to me that these higher-output COB LEDs are basically still on par with HMI on a lumens-per-watt basis. Now if we were comparing to an HMI fresnel, we'd lose around a stop to the lens, and there'd be less in it (maybe only half a stop). But compared to any open-face HMI (bug-lights like the K5600 Jokers or this Profoto of mine, or any Arrimax HMI like the M18) there's still a massive difference in output.

I was kinda hoping there wouldn't be, so I could pick up the Forza 500 or the Aputure 600 and have all the output delights of the smaller HMIs, without the all bulb-blowing/5-minute warm-up times/and the joys of proper colour-shiftless dimming. But I fear we'll be waiting some time yet before we get there.

Colour. 

Colour.

Colour.

If you need specific costume or makeup elements to look the way they are. Tungsten can save you so much grief. Unless there's a specific reason NOT to use it. Power/heat/fast pack-down etc. I see no reason to avoid it.

Bump.

Bump.

1 hour ago, Dennis Toeppen said:

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can rent four ultra primes for two weeks for no more than about $1500. They'd be used in NM. I have a quote for $1200/week but that's more than I can really swing for this. I figured that everyone's equipment is idle and that I wouldn't have any problem making this win-win deal. But the first rental house I contacted really didn't have much flexibility. They weren't unpleasant, but they weren't willing to converge. I've got insurance through ATHOS and I always treat equipment like it's my own. It's not like I'll be shooting a dune buggy flick.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thank You

ps They do need to be ultra primes, because all my gear needs 95mm front barrel.

With your budget I’d suggest looking at CP.3s or Sigma Cine primes. They both have 95mm fronts.

I disagree. I think of it as a cool-as-hell, two hour and forty-five minute Ennio Morricone score, set to extreme close ups of wrinkly, sweaty men with suspicious looks. 

Still takes my breath away every time...

2x or 1.3x depending on the squeeze factor of your taking lens.

1 hour ago, Tyler Purcell said:

I love Amelie 

 

Me too.

How something that look so wrong manages to look so right, I'll never know. But it's a constant delight every time I revisit it. It's a constant reminder to be bold.

8 hours ago, Max Field said:

What are some of the key differences between the CP2 and CP3?

The main differences for me are: 

- 95mm fronts (compared to 114mm on the CP.2s) so they’re more compact and easier to hold/handle for lens swaps. This also means they match Zeiss’ CZ.2 zooms (if you’re shooting with both)

- Smoother mechanics. I’ve rarely had issues with the CP.2s on that front, but sometimes the focus rings can be a little stiff. With the CP.3s they’ve made the action considerably smoother and lighter. 

Price drop to $1790 USD per set + Shipping.

Price drop to $3,300 USD + shipping

On 2/9/2020 at 3:47 AM, Robino Jones said:

His demo looks impressive but it's really just a shot matching demo and it's not too hard if you have both 35mm and digital footage side by side, especially if you're the one who shot both.

Would be interesting to see a test with a different person shooting the 35mm and he shoots the digital version of a scene. Then have him put his secret sauce but without having him look at the film reference.. just his sauce.

I would also suggest more challenging scenes this time with some colors,  some mixed color temperatures and a night setup where you see car headlights / brake lights. 

Then we we could really see what the secret sauce can do.

 

That makes absolutely no sense. The entire point of a controlled test is that it's controlled. The shots and conditions are repeated so you can see and judge the actual differences between them. 
 

On 2/24/2020 at 2:52 PM, nalki said:

very interesting, so what do you think does 300d ii with his brightnest is enough for you're documentaries? Or you gonna buy/rent when 600d will be available?

as 300d ll is a daylight with 5600k (+/-200 - how i know),  for getting closer to tungsten do you use gels? If yes tell which one you use and which Kelvin do you get?

It's bright enough to be very useful, though of course not bright enough to fight direct sunlight.

The output is very useful though. I have to pair two 150w LED panels ALL the time to get enough output for a lot of situations, the single 300w unit gives you the same output, but from a single fixture, which is great. The dimming with zero colour shift also makes the light much easier to use than HMI in a lot of circumstances. 

Their upcoming 600w model will be SUPER useful for that same reason. Twice the output (hopefully) and all in a single fixture.

We’re using the Aputure 300Dii on a documentary series I’ve just started, and I’m already in love. 
 

Between the fresnel and the Lightdome II attachments (and using the light open-face to bounce), the speed and versatility of the light are just superb. The output is incredibly useful too. 
 

I’m excited for the bi-colour version and the 600w version especially. 
 

The COB style light source is so much easier to work with than broad and uncontrollable panel lights in most situations. 

My body is ready.

Great film! Unlike others here I think Sandler did a great job, the intensity of the performance and the intensity of the film seemed to drive each other along very nicely. 

The cinematography too, felt perfectly matched to the narrative.

To me, the film felt like watching a tense game of basketball. I could feel that same strange sense of self-aware, but intense engagement in each player's decisions - it was anxiety-inducing, but in the way that good films are.

So long as the results are consistent, I'd say you're good to go.

Alexa's a bit unique/painful in that the Log image is so damned flat, that I find it really hard to use with a waveform - everything looks like a midtone. Kind of forces you to stick to your meter (which is why I'm always checking that the cameras calibrate with mine).