Chris Pickle

.......... Am I allowed to respond to the ideas expressed in your comments for the sake of discussion? ........

You not only responded to my comments, you essentially told me they were not relevant to discussion. At least, I suppose, not your part of it. I don't dig harsh, and sometimes these boards, in my view, can be a bit knee-jerk.

........ If you are a DP pulling your own focus, and your producers will accept some blown takes due to soft shots then that's fine. That has nothing to do with us.

 

...... But it's worse than stupid to combine that with steadicam. Doesn't make any sense.

 

........ I don't see what that has to do with what we're discussing.

 

That's not correct. ...........

Sorry if I came to the discussion late... and it had evolved beyond general feedback on Red & Nikon to Red & steadicam & nikon & pulling focus. I did however have a small amount of insight into the general idea of Red & Nikon and I apologize if my comment on taking issue with other folks issues with Nikon seemed harsh to you.

Yes, my experience doesn't include Stedicam, so I can't speak to that. The two features we just completed with Nikons. We were lower budget, but the footage looks fantastic. On a tight budget, I wouldn't break the bank with expensive rentals if I had access to fast Nikons. When I hear of folks going to the ZF line, I'm surprised, since there is no image benefit and I can't imagine that a smoother focus barrel (that is still short) would factor. And as I mentioned, going to Standard Speeds, well, on low budget, I would have missed all those stops.

On the other hand, it would be great to have a fast set of quality PL glass. Hopefully Red has solved the issue for the budget minded.

It's all good.

Chris

The original post was from a 1st AC's perspective, not from the DP's, and we were talking specifically about pulling focus on steadicam shots. Our job is to make sure the image is sharp. That's what we get paid for. If the image is soft, we lose our jobs. If you are a DP pulling your own focus, and your producers will accept some blown takes due to soft shots then that's fine. That has nothing to do with us.

 

Look, I've done plenty of jobs pulling from the barrel with Nikkors. But it's worse than stupid to combine that with steadicam. Doesn't make any sense.

 

As far as Nikkor lenses being faster, I don't see what that has to do with what we're discussing.

 

 

That's not correct. The biggest issue is not the short throw of the lens barrels, it is the lack of calibrated witness marks and collimation of the lens which ensures the accuracy of those marks, as well as the lack of focus gears. You can only focus "the old fashioned way" when working with steadicam, by judging distance from the focal plane to the subject and using a wireless follow focus device. Nikkor lenses only work when you focus from a monitor. If you have your Nikkors fitted with 0.8 pitch gears, it may be possible to do this sitting at the big monitor if you have an HD wireless video system like the WEVI but you won't have that luxury on a no-budget shoot.

I wasn't talking to you. If you read my post, you'd see I was responding to the OP's first post. (which I quoted!) I was simply giving my two cents on shooting Red & Nikon, which is what the OP was asking for.

All my comments were to my experiences--like, lens speed, focus, my thoughts on pros & cons... etc. My comment about folks complaining about this setup wasn't directed at you, nor anyone in particular... I hear the Nikon lens lament often enough to comment on it without talking about you.

These were MY EXPERIENCES.

Do you think everyone who posts in this thread must make posts that are relevant to yours? Or are we allowed to comment / respond to the OP?

I'm 1sting my third RED feature starting next week. Pretty straightforward drama script. Probably the most complicated thing we'll do is some steadicam on set and some matchmove in post.

 

I found out last night that the budget stretched like a pizza crust and the hole ended up in the camera department. So, we'll be using Nikon primes with the RED Nikon mount. I pushed for a set of Zeiss Ultras or Supers but apparently it was just too expensive. Fortunately we got an Arri mattebox and FF - we almost ended up with the RedRock clip-on, which would have been too time-consuming for this shoot.

 

Any advice or pitfalls to watch out for?

 

I personally own and love my Nikon D70, so I'm familiar with Nikon's zoom glass, but I'm a little dubious of what it's going to look like on RED (don't tell the producer!). Anybody know of any examples of RED footage shot with Nikon primes?

Recently shot 2 features with Red / Nikon. Mostly 35 / 50 / 85 ... some 135 & 17-35. Footage looked great, especially 35, 50, 85. Focus was tricky but we managed. Dp / Operator pulled his own focus from LCD, but he's a machine and shoots this way 5 days a week. I must say how surprised I was in how well it worked. When I hear eveyone worried about this approach, I'm not sure what they mean. Yeah, it was tough, but the Nikons were faster then a set of ZFs or Standards.

Obviously the biggest issue is the short focus turn radius... but

For anything low budget, I'd just go this route. The LCD was remarkably accurate.

Chris

I know this might sound sacrilegious, but data wrangling is not the big deal people say it is. Actually, on anything other then a very big budget you don't even need a DIT. Everybody, (Especially Red owners) like to perpetuate the idea that it's some big scary difficult issue--data and DIT.

As far as the camera goes, well, someone on the crew should know the camera menus,etc. But that's no different then any camera. The data is as easy as pulling the drive or card and copying it to two other drives. No one sits there and watches the footage. That would take forever. Even the data transfer takes forever on big shoot, so once it's started, all you can do is maybe count the ceiling tiles.

You double check the files sizes on all 3 drives, watch a bunch of clips, maybe a few seconds from each, then carry on. It's ridiculously easy. On a small indie crew, the 1st could do it, or at least get it started over lunch if that's how you want to do it. Hell, the director or DP could do it.

On our last two features we simply went back to the office and transfered footage at the end of the day. Someone on the crew took care of it, but we all communicated to make sure no one wiped drives until all double checks were made. We shot on a drive so we didn't stop mid-day to transfer.

Chris

DIGITAL AGE SHORT FILM COMPETITION deadline extension 9.1.09.

 

No excuses - plenty of time to shoot!

The prize is a non-existent camera?

Chris

Hi Chris, I guess you may be right.

 

maybe the Nikon D3 with (12 ?) taps on the chip is just doing a fast read ?

 

Wherever the reset "is", I haven't found it. I thought maybe the shutter was hiding it, or maybe it is an effective global shutter.

 

Curious....

 

-Sam

 

ps not denying the Red has skewing issues (wouldn't deny D90 in video mode either !!)

I think the solution will come via faster read chips and processors, verses a mechanical fix. I can't imagine Red wanting to go that route. Especially at their biz model / price point. There's speculation that their new models will already see an improvement.

I always admit to loving the Red, but when I see (not meaning you) folks bash the D90 or other cams as having horrible skew and making fun of it, I wonder if they are really being honest about the Red, and doing a bit of a white-wash because they are such fans or they are justifying buying the Red.

In a best case scenario we could be fans of the Red and yet speak truthfully about it's shortcomings. It's a first generation camera from essentially a ground-up design. There's bound to be short-comings and challenges.

Just my perspective.

Chris

I'm not so sure - my Nikon w/ CMOS can do up to 9 fps Full Frame & 11 fps DX frame & I see no significant skewing... admittedly higher frame rates there would be mechanical issues with that type of shutter (but a focal plane disk could solve them) but I don't see why you'd have skewing / reset artifacts at say 24 if you don't have then at 10 or 11, just more frames

 

-Sam

If we agree that there is skew and that it's caused by a slow chip read, then a mechanical shutter wouldn't fix the issue, because when the shutter is open, the weak link would still be the chip.

Now, maybe we don't agree that there is skew, but from my experience, there is major skew in the Red footage. As I said, I'm a fan, but I was surprised at how much there is. But that's my experience.

Chris

The rolling shutter isn't so much a shutter as it's the timing of the readout from the CMOS chip. In order to use a mechanical shutter, they'd have to be able to read out much faster, which would give the desired result even without a physical shutter

 

The only reason for a mechanical shutter would be to use it for an Arri style mirror reflex viewing system. The number of machinists still alive who are capable of working to that degree of precision is probably in the dozens to low hundreds.

-- J.S.

Exactly. Even if they had a mechanical shutter, the chip read speed still couldn't keep up with an "open" shutter.

I love the Red and it has given my latest feature film a great level of production value, but the skew shows up way more then I thought it would. Parts of my film are busy handheld, but not crazy cam. The skew shows up even in very calm pans.

Again, I love the Red.... but...

Chris

This may be an odd question, but can I put a 1200w bulb in a 2500w light? I want to buy 2 used 1200w HMIs but I can't find any. I have found many more 2500w HMIs. I thought I read somewhere that the ballasts are rated for more than 1 watt setting?

Maybe I'm way off base?

Also, does anyone know of a good source for used 1200w HMIs. PARs preferred.

Thanks,

Chris

The lamest example of this ever was when Claudio Miranda stopped posting after being attacked for having run tests that didn't show red as awesome.

 

God that was embarassing to read.

That was certainly a low point.

BTW - I see that your Oscar nomination (and obvious talent--Silent City was way cool.) finally paid off! Akira....?? Wow!! And rumored to star a couple of of most talented actors in Hollywood today!

Is this the plan for red owners? To work for free with their camera when it rents? Sounds strange to me. I'm glad the camera worked well for you. It just seems strange that someone would give away their time like that. Personally, I love operating, both conventional and steadicam, but I can't afford to work for free.

I don't think anyone works for free. Who really knows the "value" breakdown of the rental day rate. For a person just staring out, this has always been a popular biz model. They can amortize the camera as long or short as works for them, and then know that part of the "rental" rate includes their own rate -- even if it is on the lower end.

It's similar to the DP who talks the producer into renting some light goodies from their personal stash, and then only using them once on the shoot. Everyone knows it was really about the day rate, even the producer. But then the producer thinks at least their getting some extra value.

Just my thoughts.

Chris

It would be nice to see someone like David Mullen do a full shakedown outside of any group or NDA. (I'm not meaning to disparage LART)

Chris