Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

Hi all,

I plan to shoot a sync sound project on the SR3 very soon. The only sound recorder available in Edmonton to rent is the Zoom H4N, i've been told by many sources that this will work and sound good if I run it through my sound devices 302 preamps, but I would like to know what you guys think of this, and if there is anything you think I should know about.

Is it just as easy as running the Schoeps through the 302 through the H4N, and setting the recording quality to it's highest?

Is there a certain setting I need to know about in order to ensure sync between the H4N and the SR3? Obviously, a clapper slate will be used. I'm referring to possible drift in sync due to different frame rates or problems in editing.

Sorry for being so vague, still very un educated when it comes to the whole audio side of things.

Thanks so much!

Evan

Evan, arricode is a joke. It's meant to make things easier, but the implementation was half-arsed and not really thought through response to the success of Aatoncode. I could tell you all the reasons why, but just take my word for it. It's junk.

 

I've yet to meet a single person that's been able to make it work successfully without some kind of ongoing drama. I do know that the best chance you'll have of making it work it to go to a telecine facility with a keylink as they are the best readers of arricode (which are funnily enough made by Aaton).

 

So either use a Timecode slate as discussed or a regular dumb slate and you'll enjoy the unique tribal ritual of bashing two bits of wood together for film that's been with us for nearly a century...

 

jb

Sounds good John, thanks!!

Even with a time code slate, you should clap the sticks. Code generators can drift a little, distance to the microphone matters, and the sticks let you correct out all the little variables. The numbers get you close, the sticks are the final answer. The big advantage to the time code slate is in automatically finding the right scene and take. In ancient times, we had to listen to the voice slates and write the scene and take info on the mag film, then mark the frame with the clap sound -- very labor intensive. That part of the process was called "popping sticks". But we had talkies before there was time code.

 

Jam the time code generators together at the start of the day, and again when you come back from lunch.

 

If your film runs 24.00 fps, your audio time code needs to be 30.00 fps. If the film is 23.976, sound needs to be 29.97. In European mode, it's 25.00 for both.

 

When in doubt, always err on the side of sound late rather than early.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

Thankyou Tom and John for your helpful responses!

Evan,

 

If you're not a professional DP then you might want to think about removing the "Director of Photography" title under your "Profile Information" as that is where you list your occupation. If you are just learning cinematography, which it sounds like you are from your posts, then you might want to list your occupation as "Student" for now.

 

I don't use timecode for syncing audio for two reasons. First, I don't have a timecode audio recorder that I could "jam" with an SR3 or Aaton camera even if I wanted to. And Second, I always sync audio in post/editing, I don't have the process/telecine house sync the audio for me. If you do what I do, then the clapper slate works fine. And since I always slate every scene and take anyway (so as to keep track of all the shots when it gets to the editing bay) the slate is there at the beginning of each take. It takes only about an extra second to clap it.

 

Best,

-Tim

Thanks Tim, I'll make the necessary changes

Sorry to sound like a dick, but, if you are a DP, you should know this. Asking questions like that when you have the book is the lazy man's way. Read the book and if have questions, then come back. Don't expect to come on here and have your homework done for you. Do a Google search.

Hi Tom,

You don't sound like a dick, but you're assuming a lot of things. First of all, I'm not a professional DP, this is a personal project with friends. Secondly, I have read the book, but, as I indicated in my original post, I have a very limited understanding of timecode and the different procedures used to sync sound. Being that I live in Edmonton, a place where very few people work professionally, its hard to gain experience and learn about these things except through asking questions to the bigger more experienced guys like yourselves.

Asking you guys questions uncomplicates things that seem complicated in the handbook, and gives myself a sense of self assurance when I'm shooting. Doing everything for the first time all by yourself can be scary, and this is why I like to ask you guys questions which sound stupid and obvious. If it would help if I were to be more specific, I can try...mainly what I'm wanting to know is what the benefits are between different procedures of recording audio and syncing timecode.

I understand the most basic method is to start recording, film someone clapping their hands in the shot, and then sync the audio to that hand clap later on. I'm assuming this is fairly archaic considering the SR3 has timecode recording. But I dont really understand the entire procedure for that. I understand that the process involves 'jamming' the timecode between both the SR3 and the external recorder through the use of some sort of external device? This is what worries/frustrates me because I dont understand how to go about doing that, and secondly, how the post house goes about syncing the audio, or if i should do it, etc etc. I really just need more real world information.

Thanks for your patience,

Evan

Evan,

 

It should be no different than shooting with any other sync sound camera. Don't know if you are using timecode for syncing or a clapper slate, I've always used a clapper slate.

 

The SR3 should be pretty quiet if it's in tune. If it's been a while since it's been serviced then it might make a bit of a racket. IIRC you can quiet the camera slightly with the pitch adjustment the SR3 has. Also keep a barney, packing blankets or a leather jacket around for critical sound shots where the slight camera noise might be picked up in a small room or by a close mic. In that case, throw the barney/blanket/jacket around the camera before you shoot.

 

If you have more specific questions, maybe we could be of more help.

 

Best,

-Tim

Hi Tim,

Thanks for getting back to me. So, as I understand it, if I use a clapper slate, i just film the slate getting clapped down and then later when in post I can sync the sound to the beginning of the clap? Is there any easier way? I understand the SR3 has timecode but I've never particularly understood why this is beneficial if I'm using such a basic method as described. Sorry for my ignorance, too spoiled with 'automatic' sync of digital cameras.

Evan

Hi all,

Will be shooting S16 in a relatively humid environment, the west edmonton world waterpark, next friday. Just curious if there is anything special I need to know about working with film in humid environments.

Thanks!

Evan

Hi there,

First of all, I have to thank you all for being very helpful as of late. I've had some important questions regarding a super16mm shoot and thanks to you guys it turned out excellent.

But as for my question. Within the next few weeks I will be shooting a snyc sound project on the SR3. Having absolutely no experience with sync sound other than through digital formats (Mixer straight to XLR input in camera, eg. RED, HVX200), I am at a loss as to what to expect and what to do. There WILL be a sound guy with SD302, schoeps, tascam recorder, etc. BUT I do not want to rely on his expertise. I would like to understand the process myself as well. I have Jon Fauers SR3 handbook and I plan on reading it, but, being that you guys are such an excellent resource, I was hoping you could give me a summary regarding dos and donts, what I need to know, etc.

Thankyou very much,

Evan

Not sure about the SR3, but with the 16SR and 16SRII, to run at 1 fps you need to do a modification to the camera.

 

Currently I'm servicing an SR with a Cinematography Electronics Speed Control attached, and I noticed that even though the speed control goes down to 1 fps, the camera won't really run smoothly at anything under 3 or 4 fps. I talked with the folks at CE and they said that was normal, that the load when the camera is trying to run at less than 3 fps is too much for the electronics. To make an SR or SRII run at 1 frame per second, you need a separate electronics board to be installed in the camera. Then the camera can be hooked up to an intervalometer and do time-lapse, running at 1 fps or slower. I am assuming the SR3 would have the same issue.

 

The way you are describing doing the loop is how I have always done the loop when shooting with an SR or SRII. Again I would assume it would work the same way on an SR3. Do remember to press the advance button until you hear the "click" every time you load a new mag. Otherwise, that has always worked fine for me.

 

Best,

-Tim

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, Tim.

Interesting about the frame speeds, but that still seems so strange to me, considering even basic super8mm cameras can do manual "still frame" timelapses.

In regards to film loading and the film loop, the guy who helped show me how to do it basically said, "you'll hear if something is wrong". Is this a fairly safe generalization? I ask because, I'm not particularly sure if I heard a click, however I did use the phase button and when the film ran through the camera it was exceptionally quiet.

Sorry for the vagueness and insecurity, just really can't wait to get this film back and find out if I'm an idiot or not.

Hi there,

I recently shot on the SR3, and wanted to do some timelapse photography. I was sad to see that the SR3 apparently only supports 5-75fps? Is there anyway to do 1fps? It seems strange to me that such a great camera can't handle such an 'easy' frame rate. There must be some sort of explanation I'm not aware of.

And one other quick question-

In the SR3 manual it notes that during loading you must "Center the film loop in the direction it will run". What exactly does this mean? When I made my loop, I just made sure that the film length was as long as required, the film was snug between the 4 pins, and that the loop stuck out equally on either side of the pressure plate. Is this correct? Was there something I was missing?

Thanks a million as always,

Evan

Hi Evan,

 

Best light at most telecine houses means footage is corrected shot to shot. The best thing you can do to get what you want is to communicate with the colorist before the job. Let them know what the intended look is, show them color corrected still frames, whatever you can do.

 

That said, I have personally had a bad experience with Cinelicious and will never use them again. Their film handling practices are unacceptably sloppy in my opinion, producing the dustiest transfers I have ever seen (something I specifically asked them about prior to the job, and which they assured me was not a problem).

 

They also did not bother to report an emulsion scratch that appeared intermittently over one whole roll. So I would say that if you are going through the expense of shooting film, then you should get the best telecine you can get. You get what you pay for.

That is very unfortunate, I'm sorry to hear that. I'd heard good things from others about cinelicious. I like their price, the direct to drive options, and I enjoyed that "hunter richards 600ft" test roll montage. However, hearing your story makes me feel a little worried.

Anyone have any good or bad experiences I should know of?

Can anyone recommend another post house?

Thanks for all the responses,

Evan

Even though the film is moving what you want to focus on is how long each single frame is exposed for, same as a still camera-- the shutter is open for a finite amount of time, same as in a still camera. The difference is that in a cine-camera how long the shutter stays open also depends on how fast the film is moving, as Chris points out. As you can see, the higher your frame rate, the quicker the shutter opens (1/96h of a second for 48fps -v- 1/48th of a second for 24 fps).

It gets slightly more complicated when you realize film cameras can have shutters which are "shaped," differently, which in common parlance is known as having some shutter angle (e.g. 180 degrees, 172.8 degrees, 90 degrees) which will effect the shutter speed without necessarily effecting the frame rate. For example a 172.8 degree shutter @ 24fps would give you an opening of 1/50th of a second as opposed to 1/48th of a second. Not a big difference, but important for certain situations (Such as shooting in Europe to avoid flicker).

Thankyou everybody for helping me clear this up. My shoot today would have been very stressful without said information. Always a pleasure getting help from cinematography.com

Evan

Hi there,

Just had my first S16mm shoot, I shot kodak vision2 50d.

I plan on sending my footage to cinelicious to transfer. (Diamond clear HD)

Question in point, being that it was my first time shooting, I am slightly worried that my exposure might be off. I tried to consistently overexpose my neg by 2/3 of a stop, but some shots (due to lack of light) were underexposed, and some shots may have been overexposed more than 2/3 of a stop due to my relative "newbieness".

I have always understood a part of a telecine to involve the fixing of my aforementioned errors and choices (eg. bringing down overexposed image for thicker neg, darker blacks, etc.) Is this true? I do not need cinelicous to completely grade my footage, I simply need a nicely exposed image to work with later, wherein they 'fix' my exposures.

Is this involved in a regular telecine? Or do I need a "best light"? and what exactly is a best light? etc.

Thankyou very much,

Evan

Evan, for a film camera you can set your still meter for 1/50th of a second (or 1/48th if you can, which is the shutter speed for a 180 degree shutter such as the SR3 normally has @ 24fps). If you can't do 1/50th of a second you can get away with 1/60th setting on your meter as it's close enough.

I've never used the internal meter on my own SR3.....

 

The formula to figure out shutter speed from frame rate is as such:

 

Shutter Speed = (Frames Per Second *360)/Shutter Angle. For the SR3 @ 24fps and 180 it would look like this:

 

48=24*360/180, the 48 stands for one 48th of a second, or 1/48.

 

If we were shooting the SR3 at 48fps the formula would be this:

 

96=48*360/180

 

make sense?

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for the formula. Yes, on the stills light meter I can select 1/48th of a second. But the thing is, like I said, there is nowhere to input frames per second. Doesn't this change the exposure? 24 pictures a second is obviously different than one picture (photo still) a second. So what I need to know is how to account for this. I guess I'm still confused, sorry

Hi there!

I have a film shoot coming up shortly on the SR3, but I dont have a cine light meter, I have a stills one. Difference being-I cannot adjust for frame rate with the stills meter.

Questions:

1. Would anybody be able to help me do the math to find out necessary f/stop conversions? 2. Does anybody know how reliable the internal light meter in the SR3 is?

Thanks so much,

Evan

Hey great job! The short had an excellent sense of flow and style, the cinematography was great. What stock and lenses did you shoot this with?

Evan

bump

How much for the 1014? I might be interested. What kind of condition is it in? Have you ran any film through it?

According to the IMDB (which you could have employed yourself Evan) the other two were shot by Renato Berta and Ricardo Aronovich.

 

In fact, Malle seemed to like to work with a wide range of cinematographers.

 

Pre-1981, almost all features were shot on 35mm Kodak negative, with a few exceptions, and Kodak generally just had one stock available at a time, with that two-year overlap when they switched to ECN-2 processing and 5247 in the mid 1970's.

 

Anyway, "Murmur" and "Lucien" were released in 1971 and 1974, so both were likely to have been shot on Kodak 5254 100T, which came out in 1968.

Hey thanks for the info David. Yeah you're totally right, forgot about good old imdb. Anybody else a fan of the cinematography of "Murmur of the Heart"?

I have been a huge fan of Louis Malle's films for a very long time. Today I was thinking of 'Murmur of the Heart', how beautiful it is, and I couldn't for the life of me remember who photographed it. Unthinkable! How do I not know! I feel silly. So heres some questions for those who might know:

-Who Dp'd Murmur of the Heart, Lancombe Lucien, and Aus Revoir Les Enfants? They(to me) have a very similar look.

-Does anybody know what film stock/'s were used while shooting the aforementioned films? I find Murmur of the Heart has a very soft, clean, pleasing feel. It's like daylight washes over everything rendering the colors in the most beautiful subtle tones.

-Lenses used?

Cool, thanks!

If anybody wants to use this thread as a forum to discuss the cinematography in Malle's films please do so.

Super35 or Super16 (unless you somehow get saddled with 2R 16mm stock) have nothing to do with the stock, but how the images is recorded onto that stock by the camera.

Also 52 denotes 35mm film for kodak, and 72 is 16. So, 7201 is 16mm 50D, whereas 5201 is the same stock 50D, in 35mm size.

The super this or that has to do with lens centering and the film gate of your camera system.

I thought there was a difference. 16 has sprocket holes on both sides, whereas s16 only has them on one side, allowing for a larger recordable negative area. Thus I presumed you would need to specify what you want. Am I wrong in this belief?

Kodak uses numbers to donate what film stock you are ordering. What is the difference between, for example, 5201 and 7201. Would this mean 5201(16mm) and 7201(35mm)? But this still does not make sense to me because you would have to say whether you wanted super16 or super35, and this would not include super8mm stocks either.

Evan

am i coming off like an butt? i hope not. i am not having an SR3 just handed to me, i will be paying 200 dollars a day to rent it. this 'director' i've been referring to is really just a friend. this is just a site for professionals and i'm trying to 'respect' that, if you know what i mean.

i go to university for english literature, not film.

david thankyou for your support and i agree very much, you guys have practical experience, something many professors often lack. your help is always VERY much appreciated.

fran i often find when i am really specific and write a lot, my topics get looked over because they are so complex and annoying with questions. had i known you needed more detail i would have certainly given it, now i do, thanks.

i am very comfortable with shooting super8mm and regular 16. i've worked mainly with old bolex cameras. but you are right, i have absolutely no experience working with super 16mm, thus all the questions. you guys are a great resource and these 'quick' questions will literally drastically impact the quality of my film. i try to be a quick learner.

when i was speaking about the dynamic range of s16mm i meant in general. i forget who but someone answered that, 11 stops? thats phenomenal. i found it to be much less than that working with SD files of 16mm, so i'm happy i asked.

when i was speaking about '3 stops over' (sorry for being vague) i meant ambient light, probably kodak 50d, 200t, or 250d. i am so particular in asking this because i have worked several times with the hvx200. i feel i've produced great results but i spent many a tedious hour lighting everything in the most particular way, just so the highlights would hold. i'm not implying i won't do this with s16mm but i'd like to know how much more i can push it.

and again, from my limited knowledge and experience, as well as what i've read on these forums, i've found that film does not 'see' into the blacks as well as digital. this is why i ask how much range i have in the shadows(ambient light, probably 50d, 200t, or 250d)

i'm really thinking of going with 50d for all the daylight stuff. i saw some exceptional results on youtube the other day, youtube of all things!

evan

When we know that it is expensive to LIVE in edmonton, and the days are short there this time of year..(Sunrise:8:26 Sunset: 17:07) But besides that what is getting in your way? you can rent a camera and have it shipped in, or you can buy an inexpensive camera. It you just want to see various stocks you can get shome short ends from Toronto or vancouver. Canada Post will happlily sned your film to toronto or Vancouver or Seatle for processing. One lab that I know of will still do a best light workprint, or you can have the shots scanned to video

 

If you are careful you can even make your tests in such a way that you can use them as cutaways or something in your final film if they work out. About the only thig I can see that it would be hard to do is to shoot without gloves on, although the forcast for next week looks like it is warmer there than it is here in Stittsville.

i appreciate your help but without getting too far into it i'm a university student and i live alone. buying film just to 'test' is completely not an option. i'm applying for a grant this febuary and if i get it i will most certainly be doing some test. if not, just cant afford it.

thanks everyone else for your help!

no one has said anything number wise yet. 3 stops in the highlights too much to render detail on a white face? what kindof dynamic range am i looking at here. i'm sure SOMEONE must know this. what about shadows? 2 stops, at best?

exactly. for me that testing happens on the job and it is very unfortunate. thus i turn to you guys.

higher speed films have more range than slower ones? really? this goes against everything i've been told about 35mm photo film. anyone want to clear this up?

it seems any time i ask these detailed questions, the most common response is 'due some testing'. this is undoubtedly the best way to answer my questions but unfortunately i live in edmonton, alberta. without doing much explaining it is essentially impossible to do such testing economically. thus i resort to bugging you guys with detailed questions.

so again, anything, any footage tests you guys have done or experience you have or specific information in regards to super16mm's dynamic range would greatly help. i find myself constantly frustrated with the information on the kodak site. i want to see comparison pictures not numbers and pointless technical info!