Max Lundberg

I check of user manual of NPR again and not see any words about transport mechanism and registration pins.

If you send me picture from film gate of NPR and mechanical diagram of NPR camera, i can change of my opinion.

You can easily check these things from the internet, you know.

read the description.

If we compare cameras from technical characteristics, i think, Kinor-16 ( crystal sync motor version ) need compare with Arri SR, Elcair ACL, not with Eclair NPR.

The NPR is technically way more similar to the kinor than the ACL. Both have spinning mirror shutter, reg pin, adjustable shutter(only early kinor models) etc.

he's one of the best camera techs in USA..... I'm sure he knows what he's talking about :blink:

If that's good enough for you. But for me, if someone is making a statement without proper explanation, I don't buy it. No matter who he is.

I'm sure the BL4 will give better registration than the 2C, but I don't think these cameras are in the same line anyway.

What I don't buy is that a bad lens will give better images than a good lens just because of a registration pin.

When I worked for Mobius in New York, we did a comparison test between an Arri 2C and an Arri BL4. The 2C had the better lens. Without going into all the technical details, I checked both cameras thoroughly for claw travel, penetration, and lateral stability. All were fine. I calibrated and collimated lenses and cameras. We ran 50' at 24 fps on each camera and for the last 50' jumped to 48 fps. The results obviously showed that the camera with the top-notch lens (i.e., the 2C) did not have the same resolution as the BL4 with the 30-year-old uncoated lens. What it told me was that even though instability is barely visible, it does have quite an effect on overall image resolution.

 

Of course you can get good registration with the Bolex. However, when the film isn't up to spec, which as you know can happen for a bunch of reasons, the Bolex will struggle with stability where a camera with a registration pin would not. Also, the frame line in the 2C was breathing quite a bit. The BL4's frame line was rock steady.

What do you mean by same resolution? How did you measure this?

A horrible lens? A top-notch lens? What are these?

The lens makes the image, not the camera. A registration pin is not going to make a poor lens any better than it is.

Did you shoot tests with both lenses on both cameras?

How can you be sure that the difference was just because of a registarion pin?

Are these cameras totally identical except one has a registration pin? (remember that the 2C was introduced in 1964 and the BL4 in 1986.) Actually I think the BL4 has two registration pins.

I don't think it's normal for the 2C that the frame line is breathing quite a bit. But again "quite a bit" is not very precise term. And every camera is unique.

I've seen comparisons where a camera with a registration pin and a horrible lens produced better images than a camera with no registration pin and a top-notch lens.

A useless statement.

It does seem to be hard to purchase though! Any recommendations on where to purchase some would be well received.

Maybe you could order it from Japan and have it shipped to you.

It's listed here http://fujifilm.jp/business/broadcastcinem...g/fg/index.html

I have only used the 16mm version of it, RP 72161, but I didn't have any problems to get it from the local dealer here in Europe. That was some time ago, but they still list it in their catalog.

Good luck.

Really, nothing beats the trusted L-398. No batteries, built like a tank and very accurate. It's also retro-cool and shows that you know what you're doing.

I have one of these, cost me something like $20. I just love it. A light meter is so simple device, that I haven't figured a good enough reason to buy a new digital meter, if some "antique" meter will give me exactly the same reading. Although it may not be the fastest and the easiest meter to use.

It would help if you tell us where you are located.

I don't know do they sell it in the US. I guess it just depends where you live. Perhaps the volume of sale is big enough around here, because you don't have to make a special order, even though it is a special order product. It comes in 400' and 1000' and is called Fuji FG 71112 80D/64T.

Like the Canon Scoopic does not have a pin but I understand the lense is fantastic.

There are a couple different models of Scoopic. The lenses are not the same and some of them have a registration pin(like relatively rare "Sound Scoopic").

But, I recommend study theory of mechanisms

Why do you think that I don't know the theory?

I have done dozens of registration tests with many different cameras, like aaton, arriflex, eclair, bolex etc.

I very much agree with Nathan.

There's much more things that affect to registration than JUST a one pin(or even two).

It's not like every camera without a registarion pin has the same design than some old camera from the fifties. Only when shooting high-speed(100fps+), a registration pin can be a benefit.

Also, some commercials transferred to 35mm were posted in HD, so the image is native 1.78, which fits nicely for 1.85 projection anyway.

If the 1.37 commercial(or anything in 1.37) is transferred to 35mm, doesn't it also fit for 1.85 projection(with the sidebars)?

Are you sure the commercials were run off the film projector?

Yes I'm sure.

some theatres can properly show other aspect ratios like 1.66:1 or 1.37:1.

I'm not so familiar with projecting 35mm, but last time they did show commercials in 1.37.1 before the actual film which was 1.85:1. Maybe this is done the way that they don't use the entire film area for the image. I guess this is not the properly way? Is there any restraint in projecting entire 1.37:1 film like this if you wanted?

About Aaton 35-III 0.005 mm, I trust not too much.

My mistake, Aaton 35-III was 0.011mm. But calibre for XTR is correct.

1. the camera with registration pin have more high volume of frame stability.

Kinor have 0.01 mm.

2. The long or short clampin plate not have big influence on stability.

3. You know any precision of 35 mm cine camera without registration pins ?

PSK-29 ( fixed pin plate ) have 4 pins - 0.007 mm.

4. My supposition, The design of ACL camera go from design of not reflex cine camera, that's why swinging mirror.

1. Well no. ACL 0.010mm and XTR 0.005mm. Arri SRII 0.013mm.

2. It depends on design of the camera.

3. I wouldn't compare 16mm with 35mm, because a lot of things change, but yes, Aaton 35-III. Again 0.005mm.

4. I don't think so, since ACL is follower of NPR.

Bolex, K3 or Kiev UE.

I can not agree idea, what Eclair ACL better from Kinor-16.

But, i see mechanism of Eclair and Kinor inside.

ACL have registration pin on trasport mechanism ? not ? Kinor-16 have one transport and one registartion pin.

ACL have mirror glass disk, not, ACL have one black disk on film plane and second swinging mirror.

Some people really have gone nuts with registrations pins over here.

It's just one way to hold film, like pressure plate. Kinor has short pressure plate, so it needs registration pin. ACL has longer pressure plate. NPR has both, but I don't know does it really help anything. Aaton XTR doesn't have reg pin and it has steadiest movement of any 16mm camera. As you all know, there's no registration pins in Spirit or other telecines.

Let's anyway do some more comparing (even though NPR would be more similar to compare with kinor)

The oscillating mirror of ACL is remarkable, even though it's not as popular as mirror shutter. Kinor's mirror shutter cuts the aperture vertically, ACL plate shutter cuts horizontally(more optimum). Plate shutter blocks all the light. ACL has inside filter holder.

Lens mount of kinor is it's own. ACL has C-mount and because of that, you can easily get adapter for any lens mount, including PL, nikon, cameflex, arri bayonet/standard, etc.

Kinor's noise level is 42dB, ACL's noise level is 32dB. ACL is factory build with crystal sync.

Kinor is cheaper to buy, but after getting the crystal sync modification for it, difference is not that big anymore. And if you need other lenses for kinor, you have to convert lens mount, not cheap either.

Don't get me wrong, I like kinor, it's a good camera. And ACL is good too. But these are not under $350.

edit: too late, i'm just repeating everything what Ian already said.

I think FG 71112 / RP 72161 80D is a special order product. Although you can get it easily anytime in Europe at least.

like Fuji Eterna 250D or Kodak 7205.

I have to ask this. Why you use types only with kodak? I mean why Kodak is 7205 but Fuji isn't 8663? Or why Fuji is Eterna 250D but Kodak isn't vision2 250D? Specially now, when kodak doesn't offer old 7246 anymore but Fuji still offers 8662.

The gate only? If you are handy, you could try it by yourself.

I think all but 12mm will cover super-16.

I believe the lens mount is it's own. Pentovar zoom(rear element of the lens can be changed, so it can be used as 15-60mm or as 30-120mm) is good and so are the carl zeiss jena primes(quite fast too). I haven't heard any other lenses for it.

btw. what a great camera!

1. It's not crystal sync.

2. It's not that quiet(42dB (compare to arri bl, 31dB))

Is it really 10-100mm with wide angle adapter?

I think the biggest problem with the K3 is that it is not pin registered.

It's not all about that, Aaton is not pin registered either.

No, the speed of the motor is balanced by electric power frequency (50Hz).

Sorry, but what is AC?

Alternating Current electricity

So it was you who bid it for $50.

Well since you live in London, you should use 220V. adaptor is ok.

Not crystal sync, it's AC synchronous motor, but keeps sync very well.