Mike Brennan

I was hoping to have a technical discussion on this elsewhere but it degenerated quickly into a bash fest.

Yes I've gathered there are some interesting technical aspects of the patent that, I summise, when taken in context with comments made by JJ, supposedly could have far reaching effects on the developments of other cameras.

I can't recall another occasion in the past 25 years where a patent about core elements of an electronic camera that is in production, is being said by the manufacturer to have such a wide reaching effect on the industry.

Having just paid the lawyers and had a technical innovation patent accepted here in Oz, I am loathed to try and disect the patent description because I know the devil is in a type of detail which is just beyond my iQ :)

But I'm all ears if anyone else wants to have a go.

Mike Brennan

Thanks, I didn't notice that during the dipping into RedUser.

Now that they are being assembled in the USA perhaps we can get a better idea of the number of cameras RED has sold? Knowing the number of cameras sold is a great help to accessory manufacturers and the industry as a whole. That the number is probably over 2000(?) is good news for owner operators in respect to ongoing availability of spares ect.

It is interesting that when it suites them Sony release sales figures for cameras but keep any plans for ongoing developments and improvements of existing cameras confidential, whereas Red is the opposite, they have not given any evidence for the number of cameras sold and are keen to let the public in on most aspects of camera development with a daily, blow by blow descriptions.

Both Sony and RED share a philosophy of laying out their longer term ambitions in public, Sony's track record is good at delivering what they predicted 5 or 10 years earlier, with RED everything is apt to change although so far in general, any changes to the plan have been for the good.

Mike Brennan

The surprising development is that manufacturers of single chip cmos cameras do not demand the use of cc filters?

But once a photo site is saturated thats it and it makes sense, in theory, to at least roughly balance the optical path to match the sensor to avoid massive amounts of gain in one or two channels being added within camera or in post to rebalance the image.

Tests by end users tend to not explore this aspect, perhaps because it is a convenient truth not to have to use cc filters on location:)

Mike Brennan

Anyone care to decipher the red raw patent? important? irrelevant?

The subject thread although started by JJ has been pulled at Red User and stifled on cml, so please no Red bashing just informed comment!

My link

Mike Brennan

Most likely it's a low-cost lens set for 35mm-digital!?.....

Very good question!

Could there be other film camera related reasons for 24mm x 36mm coverage?

Rebirth of vistavision?

Mike Brennan

For some large screen applications I think we could do with more pixels. If you look at a RED grab 1:1 on a 24 inch 1920x1080 display it is softer than a HD grab at 1:1.

I like the idea of getting teased at what is around the corner but REDs history is one of a series of corners and diversions before reaching the destination so actually planning on future concepts is as risky as banking on errr banks:o

Sony may bring out a product that is higher quality but I seriously doubt it will be cheaper unless it comes from the consumer division.

The Sony consumer division caught Sony broadcast on the hope when they made semi pro DV cameras so it has happened before.

John S is correct, look at the computer model not pro broadcast cameras.

The notion that development is so fast that the RED products will never be fully developed and bug free is worrying for craft cameramen and DPs who want to maintain standards.

Mike Brennan

Do camera manufacturers need to test and meet DO-160 EMC test standards?

Mike Brennan

An even more interesting development is when a new camera is used on a second project as the A camera by a DP or director.

Mike Brennan

Those rental quotes are VERY high. There is one thing I don't understand about your post, what do you mean by a workprint? A workprint is something you would get from a lab after shooting film to look at on a projector. Even a filmout from your digital master wouldn't be a workprint.

 

For costs like this it would be cheaper to shoot super 16. This would probably be a good choice because you would get a much better image than all three of these cameras (More dynamic range, high resolution, the look of film, etc). Of course this is only if the filmlook is what you want for your project. I would definitely consider this as a very viable format.

The other option is the Sony HDC1500 camera head recoridng onto Stwo or SRW1 which will give the Viper a run for its money and make the f900R look like your old aunts instamatic.

The 1500 is 14 bit AD has similar mother boards to f23 has hyper gamma and 444 output (as options) and soon will have user gamma curves and it is on its third upgrade to reduce noise and a optical block that reduces chtomatic abberation colour fringing that both Viper and f900 suffer from.

Mike Brennan

Hello,

 

The sony F900r has 4:2:2 10bit out of its HDSI.

 

What does the HDW-750 have?

 

Thanks

The same.

The f900R A/D and image processing is more sophisticated so it is a better picture comming out of the f900R HDSDI than the 750:)

Beware that there are a few varients of the HDW750

A HDC 1500 camera head (no recorder) is even better than the f900R.

Mike Brennan

Here here to Keiths post!

Fuji tried a "ND filter" (my description) on neigbouring pixels last year in still cameras and a DPreview exhaust test indicated it wasn't a success.

Obviously those shooting docs will have a different wish list than those shooting drama.

But both genres would like as much control of depth of field as possible.

By stipulating a 65mm sensor one is limiting control of depth of field on one direction whereas 2/3 inch limits it in the other.

Ultimate control of depth of field (in theory) is most likely to come from a camera with an interchangeable or adjustable sensor, say from 2/3 inch to 65mm. the challange is to do this and still keep a common texture resolution noise signature ect of the image.

Here is a relevant question. What percentage of 35mm dramas regularly shoot T1.5? im not saying that T1.5 on 35mm doesn't have a place it does!

I believe that a 1 1/3 inch sensor with T 1.5 lenses is more practical and would satisy both day to day narrow depth of field requirements (lets say equivelant in 35mm shooting T2.8) but also offer greater scope in achieving deeper depth of field required for docs.

For many applications 2/3 has too much and 35mm too little, what about 1 1/3?

The brave, so called, revolutionary world of new digital cinema cameras is still being tied to the legacy of a sensor size based on achieving acceptable film grain.

I'd love to see a digtial cinema camera design that starts from scratch that is not dependant on integration with existing film lenses.

RED 3ks format is interesting in its size is around 1 1/3 (?) it just needs more res and a set of dedicated lenses :)

Mike Brennan

First we have no idea what the internal layout of the thing is. Don't be too impressed. It's probably just a bunch of FPGA.

 

But the real question is, is it going to be any better than the existing SDI outputs, which are terrible and rancid and awful to the point of complete unusability for anything other than framing?

 

P

Im interested, from both business and camera science perspectives, that none of the RED upgrades since nov 2007 involve any additional hardware.

Some improvements are waking up hardware that has been dormant for a year, which is not unusual in electronic pro cameras, but the apparent reduction in noise with build 16 is usually achieved with hardware tweakes not software.

I hope someone directly compares build 15 to build 16 by shooting same test subject before and after the upgrade.

In respect to Phils apt description of rancid outputs, Sony misleadingly calls farty flickering noisy fizzy pictures a "monitoring output".

Having had finished today with another HD remote head aerial gimbal with yet another type of spaggetti/rain/corduory/hum bar noise signature I believe their is enough examples for a glossy illustrated book of electronic noise:)

If only we could figure a way of evaluating the background garbage on a Phil Rhodes rancid scale of one to ten:)

May I say that using RED in a wescam this week there was no gimbal or aircraft induced noise although the 720p monitoring image via slip rings was very organic :)

Mike Brennan

Sony decks will record psf, not p.

Yes they will record psf to tape, I was hoping that the decks would recieve a P input and psf it in the deck.

Sony have replied to my question and they say that true P can be recorded at 1080 50p and 60p on SRW1 using dual link.

So if I understand this correctly true p needs dual link.

Jim?

Mike Brennan

Perhaps. I'm guessing Rec 709 compliant. We'll all know in a few weeks.

To be clear, in theory Sony decks should take a P input from RED (thats what all the Sony cameras output)

Mike Brennan

Thanks Mitch, I wonder if the RED output will support SMPTE 372M standard...

Mike Brennan

RED are about to enable HDSDI 444 RED and the output is progressive and thus pictures can't be recorded on Sony field recorders which at the moment accept psf input only.

In the short to mid term, what 12 volt hardware options exist to convert p to psf in the field?

On the other hand it must be pretty easy for Sony to implement a P input on their decks?

I wonder if the 444 output is derived from a 720p image?

Mike Brennan

Ive shot a few commercials (on HD) in Nigeria.

They were set up by a UK company that has a lot of experience in Nigeria.

Everything you wrote in your post was correct.

Expect thrid world buisness behaviour and (in)competence.

Go with the flow or you will sink.

Expect to suffer blatent up front extortion and corruption.

Couple of examples.

Backround restaurant actors stopped the shoot when they were asked to talk, they demanded more money as they had "speaking part"! Producer fired them.

1st location of the day was unlocked 2 hours late.

Gaffer didn't have a jumper, he had to rewire plug every time we switched from genny to mains!

CC gel hard to find bring your own, it is very usefull.

Equipment is expensive and usually in very poor condition.

Movies are pirated very quickly. Locals like the idea of digital shooting and projection as they can have more intimate control of their project.

Scams to rob you by abduction are rife, ie driver holding board with your name.

Do be met at the airport in a way that avoids being targeted. Expect that airline or hotel staff will tip off bad guys.

Dont stay in a cheap hotel.

Dont shoot on the street for more than a few minutes unless you have large number of security, which feeds even more interest form undesirables.

If you are white skinned and on the street with kit you will be targeted in a very short time.

No shortage of automatic weapons in wrong hands.

If arriving on late flight expect to be stopped on the way into town by a bogus policeman wanting money

(sometimes you can spot them as they dont have the right weapon, ie they carry is a tear gas gun.)

Corruption is a recognised part of business.

Try to remember that most people are trying to make ends meet and they are a charming friendly people.

Nigerian skin is very dark.

Mike Brennan

Thanks for posting the footage and even though, not 4k res it does not make it a pointless exercise!

What ASA did you rate the RED at?

I take it that the RED is the wider shot of the two:)

Mike Brennan

I could spend the next hour raising my blood pressure by listing and pointing out what's wrong with all the horrible inanities in this thread, but Tim Tyler says I'm not allowed to criticise Red anymore so I'll limit myself to this:

 

Jannard is selling an idea - something that a lot of people desperately want to be true, four hours of 4K on a DVD at production quality. It does not exist, and it will never be built because it cannot be built. The camera they advertised two years ago still has not been built and cannot be built. By their reckoning, an F35 is a 6K camera. It's ludicrous. I have never, ever come across a company which relied on stretching the truth this far, and got away with it.

 

Yes, yes, there's people selling these attractive fictions to producers all over the world, and siince producers are often a) not that smart and B) endearingly desperate to believe in anything that can save them money, I'm sure these people wiill do very well. But most of them are at the end of them are engineers who are honest enough at least with themselves to know that they're selling fantasies. I think this is a pretty sad reflection on the industry as a whole.

 

P

I'm glad you've made public the restriction that TT as imposed on you about crititising RED.

I dont agree with it but these forums are privately owned and largely unregulated.

Back on topic...In the same way that producers have seen that HD isn't the right format for many productions I dont see any change yet in their decision making process in regard to RED.

RED is getting the press but will have to prove itself.

Sure some producers will make the wrong decision and use RED (as what happened with HD) some will make the wrong decision by not using RED (as with HD)

But with HD, 5 years on the dust has settled and although the HD TV audience is being deprived of highest quality pictures through use of less than best cameras we can say that HD has taken off in the TV market, however the cinema audience's experience is largely the same as it was pre HD.

Perhaps 2011 (say 18 months after EPIC is due to be launched and 30 months after REDone's being used in anger) is the time to take the census.

Caveate is ability to understand impact of the sheer number of REDones sold on how fast it is taken up.

Internet forums that spread good and bad news both with equal abandon and inaccuracy!

Mike Brennan

Jim,

 

We are very happy with how things have progressed on every front, Scarlet included.

 

Great news and Claudio should have a much better experience this time around. The new mount is so much better now and with build 16 to come soon I am sure it will only get better,

 

Thanks!

RED is beginning to earn its first stripe when it comes to reliability.

Is the project for air on TV as a TV commercal or is it a corporate in house or internet project?

Mike Brennan

The "soccer mom" comment from TED may be a indicator that Scarlet is heading for more of a mass market than niche market.

I dont know what the tipping point is for something to go from niche to mass market category, for the sake of argument lets say 50000 units.

Anyway, given that Scarlet will probably have similar codec and design elements to the REDone and EPIC do we think that sales of thousands of Scarlets will drive significant development and improvements in REDs pro cameras?

By the way if Panavision aren't thinking about branding a AVC cam or digital stills camera they are missing out.

Dont hold your breath, a most senior Euro film facility exec last year didn't know that RED had an onboard recorder..... "RED... yeah... but cables..you know, what does it record on!" was the comment.

Brains guts and drive is what this industry has needed for a decade, Jim has it and marketing froth and the gagel of fanboys aside, the industry is better off with him in the ring.

Mike Brennan

Some good points raised on this thread.

I think the Computer model comment is relevent to semi pro users, where they are getting cheaper and with more features than the customer wil ever use. But I see pro users still not having the tools we need.

For instance we are still stuck with 8 bit recording on many HD pro cameras, 10 years ago we had 10 bit in SD.

RED is good on one hand in respect to impved specs but has serious ergonomic flaws (ie boot up time)

The rendering obsolescent obsolete mantra is looking very tatty. On the basis that the REDone upgrade will not be latest and greatest technology then it is not a new concept, Sony have beeen doing that for years. I upgraded from 4x3 to 16x9 sensor on my 700 camera. SRW is constantly getting upgrades to enable more features as is HDC 1500 and f23.

In fact the REDone camera has broken records in that many think it obsolecent before orders taken before launch have been fulfilled!

But compared to other camera its tech spec is ahead of the game so I cant think of RED as being obsolecent. 2010 maybe.

Mike Brennan

It means that immediately after you've mortgaged your house to pay for it, a new, "improved" camera will be announced featuring the NEW MYSTERIUM X TURBO GT SENSOR.

I wrote of the issues RED faced in upgrading vs new cameras in last edition of High Definition Magazine.

I see after the launch last year Angenieux have release the Optimo "Rouge" lens for new digital cinema cameras....30-80mm pictured with a red balloon:)

"Optimo quality at affordable prices" anyone seen a price?

Mike Brennan

London

No question RED is good value for money. No question they initially cut corners to make the price and resolution numbers work.

Sony did the same thing with f900 only it wasnt cheap!

14 bit AD and 14 bit recording would make RED a modern digital camera rather than a low priced high res one with good recording

Skarlett form factor and price is more revolutionary than REDone from my shooters perspective.

At EPIC launch by not announcing significantly different specs to REDone caused consternation, if one is to believe RED user postings.

Surely JJ saw the flak comming?

5K users spending $40k will be a harder fan base to palcate if there are bugs in the works. Three years on one hopes EPIC wont be released with more than a few critters, 3000 beta testers of RED one is a research base not to be ignored.

Mike Brennan

RED users are reporting IR issues, namely not being able to filter enough of the IR out so it doesn't effect the visible light spectrum. It is ost noticible when using NDs that knock but a greater percentage of visible spectrum than IR.

I assume that the Prism in a 3 chip camera should absorb a lot of the IR spectrum, is this accurate? I can't recall a single mention of IR being a problem in 3 chip cameras.

We recall that Panavision changed their IR filter on f900 to allow a little more IR and red wavelengths onto the chips and even under that scrutiny there wasn't a suggestion that IR was causing a problem. Or was it being balanced out of the system in the OHB matrix?

Any info or science about digital stills cameras IR sensitivity in comparison to RED?

Mike Brennan